Pope praises Cardinal Burke as a lawyer, criticizes fundamentalists

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Perhaps there are degrees of “fundamentalism.” I think a “test” for whether someone is fundamentalist would be if they consider [selected the outgroup religion] to be bad and dangerous because of their religion (or ethnicity). It used to be Jews, but now it seems to be Muslims.

I know a lot of people just have some slightly negative feelings about Muslims, but some other go much further and fear they are taking over, say, Europe or America, the way they used to fear the Jewish take-over. I’ve heard that some think Muslims will be imposing Sharia law in Europe or America (I know a lot of Muslims and they don’t even want to live under Sharia law, but are committed to modern democracy and laws).

However, it seems that Cardinal Burke thinks of Islam as being such a threat. If so, he would be in the category of fundamentalist Catholics. That’s perhaps why Pope Francis made his comment in the context of praising Cardinal Burke as a lawyer.

There is a difference between ordinary conservatism within religion (maintaining chastity and adhering to the strict rules re personal conduct) and fundamentalism (which could include the former, but would also include this fear and loathing of the outgroup).

I’m not sure of your meaning of “ecumenism,” but the ordinary meaning of cooperation & finding common ground among religions (not a total merging of them) does not bring up any “red flags” for me. In fact I like ecumenism and have participated in some interfaith programs – one was “Faith in Action: the South African Experience,” which was a conference at Aurora University in IL involving faith leaders from all faiths (Protestant, Catholic, African-Traditionalist, Jewish, Islam, Hindu) came to explain how they had all joined together and fought against Apartheid in S. Africa. The Jewish rabbi and Muslim imam embraced each other having not seen each other for over 10 years. The Hindu, Ela Gandhi, the granddaughter of Mahatma Gandhi, was a great hit. We all had to strain our ears to hear her very soft words of wisdom.

I don’t see why they couldn’t also be included as “fundamentalists.” It is mainly about this fear and loathing of the outgroup and their beliefs, even more than about strong, rigid adherence to beliefs of one’s own “religion.”

We perhaps all tend to dislike or disavow beliefs that contradict our own beliefs, otherwise we’d chuck ours and take on the others. That’s not the issue, so much as a very strong fear and loathing, almost approaching a need to stamp out the other beliefs and perhaps the people who hold them.

In a way fundamentalism is akin to the authoritarian, prejudiced, and paranoid personality types, with some similar traits. Or, people who have those psychological styles/disorders perhaps tend to be attracted to the more fundamentalist branches of their religions.

(I remember reading something when I taught Psychological Anthropology decades ago about how some international conflicts might be traced to psychological disorders of national leaders.)
So anyone who acknowledges real threats about massive and sudden inflow of muslims into non-muslim countries is a fundamentalist? Were the fears of the jews in the past prompted by terrorism by jews or fear of certain jewish teachings that many feared would lead to a judisation if the numbers became large enough? I dont think so. I find both this comparison and dismissal of the concern many have about this issue as a simple one of hating another for being different quite wrong, to put it mildly. Are you denying that there is any reason for genuine concern over the reception of large numbers of muslims from the midfle east into non-muslim societies? Thats the opinion I have heard from Cardinal Burke and it seems quite reasonable to me given the FACTS.

Again, I dont know catholics who want to stamp out non-catholics, including muslims. And while you are fine with ecumenism, which I am too (to certain limits) what I mean is that many of those who reject it, catholics, orthodox, protestants, muslims, jews, seem to do so for principled reasons, not out of a sheer hatred of the other. Certainly catholics dont seem to do it for that reason.
 
Perhaps there are degrees of “fundamentalism.” I think a “test” for whether someone is fundamentalist would be if they consider [selected the outgroup religion] to be bad and dangerous because of their religion (or ethnicity). It used to be Jews, but now it seems to be Muslims.

I know a lot of people just have some slightly negative feelings about Muslims, but some other go much further and fear they are taking over, say, Europe or America, the way they used to fear the Jewish take-over. I’ve heard that some think Muslims will be imposing Sharia law in Europe or America (I know a lot of Muslims and they don’t even want to live under Sharia law, but are committed to modern democracy and laws).

However, it seems that Cardinal Burke thinks of Islam as being such a threat. If so, he would be in the category of fundamentalist Catholics. That’s perhaps why Pope Francis made his comment in the context of praising Cardinal Burke as a lawyer.

There is a difference between ordinary conservatism within religion (maintaining chastity and adhering to the strict rules re personal conduct) and fundamentalism (which could include the former, but would also include this fear and loathing of the outgroup).

I’m not sure of your meaning of “ecumenism,” but the ordinary meaning of cooperation & finding common ground among religions (not a total merging of them) does not bring up any “red flags” for me. In fact I like ecumenism and have participated in some interfaith programs – one was “Faith in Action: the South African Experience,” which was a conference at Aurora University in IL involving faith leaders from all faiths (Protestant, Catholic, African-Traditionalist, Jewish, Islam, Hindu) came to explain how they had all joined together and fought against Apartheid in S. Africa. The Jewish rabbi and Muslim imam embraced each other having not seen each other for over 10 years. The Hindu, Ela Gandhi, the granddaughter of Mahatma Gandhi, was a great hit. We all had to strain our ears to hear her very soft words of wisdom.

I don’t see why they couldn’t also be included as “fundamentalists.” It is mainly about this fear and loathing of the outgroup and their beliefs, even more than about strong, rigid adherence to beliefs of one’s own “religion.”

We perhaps all tend to dislike or disavow beliefs that contradict our own beliefs, otherwise we’d chuck ours and take on the others. That’s not the issue, so much as a very strong fear and loathing, almost approaching a need to stamp out the other beliefs and perhaps the people who hold them.

In a way fundamentalism is akin to the authoritarian, prejudiced, and paranoid personality types, with some similar traits. Or, people who have those psychological styles/disorders perhaps tend to be attracted to the more fundamentalist branches of their religions.

(I remember reading something when I taught Psychological Anthropology decades ago about how some international conflicts might be traced to psychological disorders of national leaders.)
I find the attempt to drag psychiatry and psychoanalysis into world affairs quite tiresome. No such attempt was made by Pope Francis, even though he has studied psychology. Moreover, the Pope is addressing us as Catholics. He is not talking about David Koresh, Jim Jones or Marshal Appleton. Let us not muddy the issue. :o
 
I find the attempt to drag psychiatry and psychoanalysis into world affairs quite tiresome. No such attempt was made by Pope Francis, even though he has studied psychology. Moreover, the Pope is addressing us as Catholics. He is not talking about David Koresh, Jim Jones or Marshal Appleton. Let us not muddy the issue. :o
Just mentioned a study I read some decades back. My own view is that the psychological dimension is only one of several that impact human behavior – others being the social (economics, power, kin/friend, status, groups, etc), cultural (beliefs, values, ideology, religion), biological and environmental – with none as sole determinant.

As a religious person, I also consider the spiritual dimension or God’s plan (which goes beyond what we finite humans can understand thru the sciences) but interpenetrates all these other dimensions that we can know to some extent.

That said, one might think about the psychological issues (as well as other dimensions) of various people. As I mentioned some people (only a few, not all) are attracted to fundamentalism or conservatism due to some psychological propensity. One of our Carmelite sisters suffered from paranoia; her husband always blamed religion and stopped going to church, but religion was not to blame, it was only the way she expressed her disorder.

I had this book, The Inner World of Mental Illness, and it was interesting to see the different stories and styles of how people expressed their mental illness. Those who were religious, expressed it in a religious idiom; those who were more into science, expressed it more like sci-fi, such as things like “radio voices” from enemy countries or outer space.

Which bring me to a main point. Fundamentalism (the part of it re the fear and loathing of people with different beliefs or ethnicities) can be dangerous – not the bulk of the people who might be considered fundamentalists, but the psychologically disturbed, violence-prone fringe, who would then go around killing Indians, thinking they are Middle Easterners (as is now happening in our society). Since my husband is from India (a good Catholic, who brought me into the Church), we are concerned about this.

I think that might be what Pope Francis is concerned about – the ratcheting up of rhetoric, which could ratchet up hostilities, conflict, and suffering. He wouldn’t expect a Cardinal to engage in violence, but he may be concerned that some socially-compromised and/or psychologically-disturbed people may engage in discrimination, abuse, or violence because the enflaming rhetoric of that Cardinal and those who follow him, which makes them feel under serious threat, whether they are Christians afraid of Muslim domination or terrorism or Muslims afraid of Christian domination or war against Muslims.

To answer another poster, I don’t think anti-Semite people thought of Jews as being such a violent threat (as much as an economic, political, and/or racial threat), and that was because they were such a small minority. However, some did fear Jewish violence, blood libel.

In our situation today the percentage of Christians and Muslims in the world are somewhat comparable, even tho the Christian-majority nations have by far great military capabilities.

If people cause greater polarization, this creates fertile ground for great harms on both sides. We don’t want to pour gasoline on whatever spark exist. We need in Christian fashion to try and get along with our neighbors. And who are our neighbors? Jesus answers that.

Pour water, not gasoline on those sparks of hate and violence. Pray for those who persecute us, turn the other cheek, focus on the plank in our own eye rather than the speck in the other’s eye. Understand that the Orlando nightclub massacre may have been more about psychological and homosexuality issues than “Islamic terrorism,” etc. Imagine if 9/11 had been treated as a crime (the way the OK City bombing was) instead of an act of war…what would have been the outcome.

There are many Muslims who do not consider ISIS to be Muslim – I can go along with that.
 
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