Pope prays for US, calls racism a pro-life issue

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HomeschoolDad said:
Very thankful that the Holy Father is acknowledging us and our problems.

I’ve gotten the vibe over the years — and maybe I’m just looking for it (but I don’t think I am) — that Rome does not really value the United States, that she “leaves us to stew in our own juices” and pays more attention to Europe and (especially) the Third World. Yes, we’re materialistic (never mind that this materialism also allows to to have the money to donate massively to the Church) and we absolutely have a problem with obedience to the magisterium (pursuit of an easy life will have that effect), but we are people too, and we are Catholics too. So for Pope Francis to care about America in this respect, that’s very refreshing and much appreciated.
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I don’t think you are imagining it and it’s not that they don’t appreciate USA or any other country, but it’s the fact that you are a Protestant country (from its roots). So Rome knows that she can only get that much out of your country and must be more careful not to allow Protestantism in the Church instead of catechizing the Protestants when dealing with USA.
Actually obedience is a BIG issue in the Church, quite central. The hierarchy is seen as life and light-giving just by itself and, it’s central in Christian theology in the Catholic sense, it’s not just an idea to think about. I am struggling with accepting these ideas as well, and am shocked sometimes by what the Saints actually said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Because if we believe St. John Goldenmouth and co were just these holy men who had interesting ideas than we pretty much undermine our entire scaffold of belief. They had to inspired by God because they are still central to our entire theology.
So for Rome to accept that a nation that claims freedom in itself and not obedience is something that God actually wants (like your Declaration of Independence claims) is for Rome to become Protestant (which will never happen). Not to mention that the online era that we live today in which many American Catholic priests publicly criticize their bishops (!!!), and get a lot of influence over the people, is a time in which I imagine the hierarchy in Rome is seeing as trial and suffering from God for their sins not a new brighter time as advertised.
 
If this were an isolated incident, I would agree. But I think George Floyd’s death must be taken in the context of a whole pattern of events by police targeted toward Black people. Many people, not only Blacks, believe that this can hardly be coincidence.
 
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Technically every sin is a pro life issue, isn’t it?

It’s all against life in some form or another.
 
Are you suggesting there is also a police culture that encourages excessive force against people who appear to be breaking the law, regardless of the perpetrator’s race or the officer’s race? Some have said there is including Black law enforcement officers.

In regard to the book, “Losing the Race,” and the component of anti-intellectualism, I believe this is part of much of American culture rather than being confined to Black culture. We are quite an anti-intellectual, anti-academic, anti-science culture on the whole.

With regard to victimhood, that too is not exclusive to Black culture. Too many in the Jewish community, for example, still consider themselves victims at the hands of non-Jews, maybe not explicitly in their own lives, but deep down in their unconscious mind, they cannot seem to forget millennia of persecution and discrimination. They are highly sensitive to the least hint of anti-Semitic sentiment. So this element of victimhood alone, I think, does not necessarily lead to lack of achievement in the larger society.
 
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  1. Not excusing anything in this case. The death was, at a minimum, reckless. At worst, intentional homicide. That is clear.
  2. But - Mr. Floyd was reported to the police. Had his behavior been above reproach, this would never have occurred. Still not excusing anything.
  3. The suspected counterfeit bill may have been OK, but, by accounts, Mr. Floyd was intoxicated, not in control of himself and was found seated in his own vehicle.
That, by itself, constitutes being in physical control of a motor vehicle while under the influence - an arrestable offense.
  1. Bigger picture: This is a cultural problem. Not a race problem. The origins are in slavery, but the legacy is a self-destructing spiral in many American blacks.
No?

Read (black) Professor John McWhorter’s book Losing the Race. I learned this from him. His book is enlightening, if sad.


It began with the racism from slavery. But the “virus” as it is called, lives on.
  1. If we automatically blame the police, who are overwhelmingly white, are we not racially stereotyping? Pre-judging?
Haven’t we spent the last 60 years trying to stop that? Carrying badge and gun for 31 years, I have anecdotes about racism and stereotyping - directed at me.
 
I can agree with much of what you say. But my point about the police (correct me if I am wrong) is that there may also be a cultural influence on the way they act toward suspected perpetrators of crime instead of a racial influence, because most police–Black, White, Latino, Asian–are indoctrinated into this culture in the same way, in other words, the “blue culture.”

I will read the book. Thank you.
 
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I have read many articles this past week. One news article interviews the night club owner where Derek Chauvin worked as a bouncer. Derek Chauvin dealt more harshly with blacks than with other clients. He was comfortable with Latin Night Hispanics. But there were nights Blacks were featured and his actions were different, more harsh. I watched many hours of Unicorn Riot live streaming of Minneapolis riots reporting. One night when black kids were being interviewed, they talked about gangs and old fashioned gang wars, Bloods, Crypts - 4 different gang names. Looks like the police there have a challenge, which doesn’t excuse anything, but perhaps one can see how an officer could feel on edge. And if you could find the article about the murderer cop Chauvin’s extra job , you’ll read the comments about his different attitude towards Blacks.
 
It’s a very kind message from Papa Francisco. I wonder if he’s giving us a clue that it’s okay to vote Democrat ?
 
meltzerboy2 said:
I can agree with much of what you say. But my point about the police (correct me if I am wrong) is that there may also be a cultural influence on the way they act toward suspected perpetrators of crime instead of a racial influence, because most police–Black, White, Latino, Asian–are indoctrinated into this culture in the same way, in other words, the “blue culture.”
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I remember images of how protesters were silenced not so long ago in USA. And probably not just USA. There was the image of a policeman almost stepping over the head of a protesting woman. I think there are many people in the world who feel more protected if they witness police brutality (on others) however I find it disturbing because it can only grow. The thing about USA is that the country usually seeks to be the speaker on freedom or democracy and a general critic of others. So when US criticizes China stopping the HK riots and what Chinese police officers do or don’t do, of course it is shocking to witness American police violence. And today every mistake is being posted online and can be magnified by just about anyone seeking to criticize USA as a whole.
 
Mary888 said:
I don’t think you are imagining it and it’s not that they don’t appreciate USA or any other country, but it’s the fact that you are a Protestant country (from its roots). So Rome knows that she can only get that much out of your country and must be more careful not to allow Protestantism in the Church instead of catechizing the Protestants when dealing with USA.
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The roots of American thought, and the entire “American idea”, are in Protestantism, Freemasonry, and the thought of the “Enlightenment” [sic]. Americans are possibly unique among the people of the world, in that they do not so much abandon religion, as much as they make it over in their own image, likeness, and “idea of what the truth should be”. I think that’s why it’s not an “American thing” to say “pfui to the priest, pfui to the Church, I do not believe, I have lost my faith, I will be secular”. Americans incline towards what is nice, what is pleasant, what makes me feel good about myself and about other people. An American does not say “life is absurd”, but rather, is always relentlessly chipper and optimistic. There are exceptions, but this is the ideal that is held up for imitation.

Going “off-topic”, for some reason, seems to have become more of a concern for some on these forums recently — not sure what’s up with that — so I will leave it there for right now. Good thoughts. Americans need to be more mindful of how they are seen in the eyes of the rest of the world.
 
po18guy said:
Do you know that American (victrimhood culture) black males are, percentage-wise, much more likely to violate the law and come into contact with the police?
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Here’s 2013 data on drug-related crimes, which comprise the majority. The arrests of African-Americans seem out of proportion.

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FiveLinden said:
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po18guy:
Where is one shred of evidence that George Floyd was killed because of his race? That he was singled our as being black?
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I would have thought the disproportionate number of black people killed by police in many parts of the US provides more than a shred of evidence. Can you quickly find a video of a white person being knelt on by three police officers until they died?
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There is a stat from 2019 that I find interesting.
  • For every 10,000 black people the police attempted to arrest, 3 were killed by police.
  • For every 10,000 white people the police attempted to arrest, 4 were killed by police.
I actually think there are three seperate issues going on with SOME police (but they overlap)
  • profiling
  • brutality
  • evil (racism, blood lust, etc)
While there are some racists out there, I don’t think racism in the police force is the under lining issue. Because African Americans will often accuse Black cops as being racist against blacks or being a race trader.

Even black cops profile. I doubt they do it because they are racist against black people.

Brutal cops are just brutal. These brutal cops get off on the use of power. They are too often protected by the unions.

The first step is to eliminate bad cops. The second is to eliminate profiling or to at least get better at servaliance so good people don’t feel targeted.
 
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FiveLinden said:
I would have thought the disproportionate number of black people killed by police in many parts of the US provides more than a shred of evidence. Can you quickly find a video of a white person being knelt on by three police officers until they died?
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silentwitness said:
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FiveLinden:
I would have thought the disproportionate number of black people killed by police in many parts of the US provides more than a shred of evidence. Can you quickly find a video of a white person being knelt on by three police officers until they died?
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The crazy thing is this guy is out cold and the cop is still kneeling on him…
 
StudentMI said:
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phil19034:
The crazy thing is this guy is out cold and the cop is still kneeling on him…
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Gotta show dominance… :roll_eyes:
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that’s goes beyond dominance… that’s power trip. When the one cop is starting to wonder if he might have killed the white guy, the other cops are laughing.

That’s the real problem with police. It’s not a racist issue… it’s a power & bloodlust issue. Obviously not all of them, but enough of them get off on hurting people they arrest.
 
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po18guy said:
Where is one shred of evidence that George Floyd was killed because of his race? That he was singled our as being black?

Where?
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This is precisely the problem with this and many other similar cases.

Of course, every catholic who accepts the social teaching of the Church agrees with what the Holy Father has said. The question is whether the George Floyd case is a case of racism.
 
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