Pope raps Christians who do not want change [CC]

[FollowChrist34]

The worst thing is not just being told how bad a christian, aren’t we all? It’s being told how bad a christian for when you are actually being a good christian as opposed to when you are actually being bad. As if the difficulties a modern faithful christian living in today’s world faces for attempting to live as a Christian aren’t enough. Many lose faith because they don’t see Christ’s intervention.

Ironically, the constant condemnation has been highlighted as the sign of the pharisee…confusing…

Bingo. The pharisees and the scribes, let us not forget. The scribes are giving us headaches these days as well. They are fashioned as ‘anti-scribes’ but everything they say is very abstract, long-winded and confusing. Each to his own. There is no confusion, not now nor in development.

View attachment 23676

 

[EIF5A]

You hit on the major problem for me: It’s hard to know exactly what the Holy Father means by many of his statements.

Very true…

His words are often twisted to fit people’s narrative and agenda, but what does Pope Francis really mean?

Things are just too confusing these days…

In light of all the twisted things brought on by the secular world, what’s so bad about desiring constancy in faith and religion?

 

[philipl]

The worst thing is not just being told how bad a christian, aren’t we all? It’s being told how bad a christian for when you are actually being a good christian as opposed to when you are actually being bad. As if the difficulties a modern faithful christian living in today’s world faces for attempting to live as a Christian aren’t enough. Many lose faith because they don’t see Christ’s intervention.

Ironically, the constant condemnation has been highlighted as the sign of the pharisee…confusing…

I am being told I am a bad catholic because I will not knuckle under to progressive modernistic relativism. Only good catholic are open to change! Those that are unwilling to change are just plan bad, well if that is the case, I am going to place my faith in God not the church.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I am being told I am a bad catholic because I will not knuckle under to progressive modernistic relativism. Only good catholic are open to change! Those that are unwilling to change are just plan bad, well if that is the case, I am going to place my faith in God not the church.

I agree with what you are saying. It does pain me to say this but I just feel like this is all so pathetic. It is ridiculous to try put forth these changes and call it the Holy Spirit - if you are going to have doctrine say one thing, then change it… so many will just run with this ‘at peace with God’ ‘gradualism’ miles further than CDR. You’re in Protestantism without even leaving your parish.

And to top it off with the charge that a Catholic lacks mercy and the courage to change if he/she has the temerity to take issue with this. I am still struggling with what do with the my realization of what is going on here. Emperor has no clothes. I have stated before I couldn’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope - it stretches credulity too far in the face of history, now this.

But can the Church go on in the face of this, effectively. And what of all the good faithful servants in it? At all levels? I still feel like there is a way forward. I blow off the ‘rigid’ criticism (kind of a badge of honor really) and go about my business as a Christian - bad Catholic, good Christian is how I look at it. I will say this is a hard time though; I feel so bad for the Church. As you note, God, faith, the Gospel will no doubt be fine. I feel a loss of community in the Church, growing division. Talk about going out with a whimper…

 

[philipl]

I agree with what you are saying. It does pain me to say this but I just feel like this is all so pathetic. It is ridiculous to try put forth these changes and call it the Holy Spirit - if you are going to have doctrine say one thing, then change it… so many will just run with this ‘at peace with God’ ‘gradualism’ miles further than CDR. You’re in Protestantism without even leaving your parish.

And to top it off with the charge that a Catholic lacks mercy and the courage to change if he/she has the temerity to take issue with this. I am still struggling with what do with the my realization of what is going on here. Emperor has no clothes. I have stated before I couldn’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope - it stretches credulity too far in the face of history, now this.

But can the Church go on in the face of this, effectively. And what of all the good faithful servants in it? At all levels? I still feel like there is a way forward. I blow off the ‘rigid’ criticism (kind of a badge of honor really) and go about my business as a Christian - bad Catholic, good Christian is how I look at it. I will say this is a hard time though; I feel so bad for the Church. As you note, God, faith, the Gospel will no doubt be fine. I feel a loss of community in the Church, growing division. Talk about going out with a whimper…

I have always believed and still believe in infalliabilty of the Pope. But that has only been declared twice in 2000 years. However, we are now witnessing the laity declaring we have to blindly follow their understanding of what the Pope teaches. If you disagree with them you can expect insults. There was just one today were a poster basically calls someone stupid. This mirror our politics in today’s world. If you voted for Trump you’re hateful, misogynistic, xenophobic, racist, inbreed loser.

 

[josh987654321]

In his homily at a morning Mass on January 17, Pope Francis criticized “lazy Christians, Christians who do not have the will to go forward, Christians who don’t fight to make things change.”

More…

Without any specifics of the change Our Holy Father is referring to, this is thus meaningless and I for one will discard it as we all should! Unless there is a reference to specifics, this cannot produce any good fruit.

All this does is give ammunition to those heretical groups who want the Churches teaching on abortion, marriage and sexuality to change contrary to the dogma’s of the Church and Christ’s clear teachings upheld for over 2000 years.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[TMC]

I agree with what you are saying. It does pain me to say this but I just feel like this is all so pathetic. It is ridiculous to try put forth these changes and call it the Holy Spirit - if you are going to have doctrine say one thing, then change it… so many will just run with this ‘at peace with God’ ‘gradualism’ miles further than CDR. You’re in Protestantism without even leaving your parish.

And to top it off with the charge that a Catholic lacks mercy and the courage to change if he/she has the temerity to take issue with this. I am still struggling with what do with the my realization of what is going on here. Emperor has no clothes. I have stated before I couldn’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope - it stretches credulity too far in the face of history, now this.

But can the Church go on in the face of this, effectively. And what of all the good faithful servants in it? At all levels? I still feel like there is a way forward. I blow off the ‘rigid’ criticism (kind of a badge of honor really) and go about my business as a Christian - bad Catholic, good Christian is how I look at it. I will say this is a hard time though; I feel so bad for the Church. As you note, God, faith, the Gospel will no doubt be fine. I feel a loss of community in the Church, growing division. Talk about going out with a whimper…

These are the very same arguments that were made after several of the ecumenical councils, including both Vatican councils. Nonetheless, the Church continues to grow in understanding.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I have always believed and still believe in infalliabilty of the Pope. But that has only been declared twice in 2000 years. However, we are now witnessing the laity declaring we have to blindly follow their understanding of what the Pope teaches. If you disagree with them you can expect insults. There was just one today were a poster basically calls someone stupid. This mirror our politics in today’s world. If you voted for Trump you’re hateful, misogynistic, xenophobic, racist, inbreed loser.

I don’t take my cues for what constitutes a good Catholic/Christian from CAF posters. That would be a recipe for disaster. . Let us just say my take on this crisis extends beyond that. We can’t consistently take our cues from what is coming out of the Vatican these days. If some precept is in violation of the Gospel and established mainstream doctrine and creed, I reject it. I don’t care where it comes from. I do agree with you that the laity/clergy/bishops interpretation and application of AL (ever widening beyond CDR for me is key) is the problem but the confusion is not being resolved because I believe it is clear which interpretation Francis wants to prevail.

In addition, the present RCC has lurched deep into rigid left wing politics, along with clericalism and confusion in doctrine. I am surprised at the vehemence of the battle. Shots at laity, clergy, bishops. You should be able to hold different political views. I too get tired of the sniping (how does that fit under mercy - still can’t get my head around that one) - I’ve not seen such relentless sniping from any of the Popes before that I’ve been under.

Surely you know the history of the Church - conflict is not all that unusual, 16th century, even the Gospels, the Apostles fought. I remember seeing local clergy on local TV talking about how Benedict and the Church were wrong in how they treated gays, women. That ruffled my feathers. There should be room for hearty debate, flat out nos - when needed. Maybe there will still be. Work to contain. Work to contain. Until you get thrown out.
:tiphat:

 

[fin]

Exactly.

I don’t take my cues for what constitutes a good Catholic/Christian from CAF posters. That would be a recipe for disaster. . Let us just say my take on this crisis extends beyond that. We can’t consistently take our cues from what is coming out of the Vatican these days. If some precept is in violation of the Gospel and established mainstream doctrine and creed, I reject it. I don’t care where it comes from. I do agree with you that the laity/clergy/bishops interpretation and application of AL (ever widening beyond CDR for me is key) is the problem but the confusion is not being resolved because I believe it is clear which interpretation Francis wants to prevail.

In addition, the present RCC has lurched deep into rigid left wing politics, along with clericalism and confusion in doctrine. I am surprised at the vehemence of the battle. Shots at laity, clergy, bishops. You should be able to hold different political views. I too get tired of the sniping (how does that fit under mercy - still can’t get my head around that one) - I’ve not seen such relentless sniping from any of the Popes before that I’ve been under.

Surely you know the history of the Church - conflict is not all that unusual, 16th century, even the Gospels, the Apostles fought. I remember seeing local clergy on local TV talking about how Benedict and the Church were wrong in how they treated gays, women. That ruffled my feathers. There should be room for hearty debate, flat out nos - when needed. Maybe there will still be. Work to contain. Work to contain. Until you get thrown out.
:tiphat:

 

[FollowChrist34]

These are the very same arguments that were made after several of the ecumenical councils, including both Vatican councils. Nonetheless, the Church continues to grow in understanding.

I am not even sure what that means - how did the Church grow exactly? In terms of doctrine.

And why when the Church grows does it sound like just like a rather hackneyed, predictable mishmash of socialism and liberal Protestantism?

 

[TMC]

I am not even sure what that means - how did the Church grow exactly? In terms of doctrine.

And why when the Church grows does it sound like just like a rather hackneyed, predictable mishmash of socialism and liberal Protestantism?

The Church does not sound that way to me. Perhaps you are listening to the wrong people?

As far as the growth of the Church, change is always slow in the Church, but I see some very good things happening, albeit slowly. The writings of the current and past Pope are a great gift, in my opinion, and there is much there for all Christians.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The Church does not sound that way to me. Perhaps you are listening to the wrong people?

I am listening to Jesus Christ.

 

[Ginny89]

I am being told I am a bad catholic because I will not knuckle under to progressive modernistic relativism. Only good catholic are open to change! Those that are unwilling to change are just plan bad, well if that is the case, I am going to place my faith in God not the church.

Indeed. My impression had been that there are three types in all of this. There are people who believe the church because they believe Christ first and there are others who seem to believe Christ only because they believe the church and a third type whose true religion is their liberal politics and the Pope’s authority is only a tool in service to that which holds their genuine allegiance. You can tell the third group by doing a little digging into their history. While they seem to champion Pope Francis’ authority today, they boldly argued that the church was plain wrong and fallible not too long ago. Until the pope started playing to their tune. The second group are devout but will vehemently attack you in the first group for not following a weird kind of blind allegiance that they subscribe to; the first is on some spectrum of an internal crisis; some confident the church will pull through eventually and seeing this is a painful but temporary phase, some with one foot already out the door and a host of them somewhere in between these two ends of the spectrum suffering deeply. Me? I follow the church only because I believe her to be true. The moment it is established she has been teaching falsely for 2000 years, I will be forced to wave her a painful good bye. I will have no reason to submit myself to her authority anymore. This is the crisis the second group doesn’t understand about the first group and that the third fully gets but doesn’t care because it has been THEIR tenet all along: that the church has no genuine authority and should leave everyone the hell alone: whatever they now seem to say about this same authority when they have something there to grab on to.

That said, I went to mass and confession for the first time in a very long time. I was definitely at the exit door but still in the church though standing at the exit and looking around for my next journey or home. I started getting signs from everywhere since yesterday, loved ones sending me psalms that fit my crisis exactly and a kindly priest. God sayin I am your soul’s portion, put your hope in ME; I am your shephard; I will tell you where to go and what to do; Even the priests message and I hadnt told him my crisis exactly, just confessed my sins, gave me words that fit me exactly and that were very comforting. Every time I leaned on God and asked for help to do what I needed at that timr, it seemed to arrive. I have started a new journey which I don’t know how it will end but I will try a fourth route: A leap of faith.

We in this period are tried in a way I believe others have nit been in the church before, no matter what people say to comfort us about this having happened in the past. We have never witnessed such highranking politics with the sacred deposit itself. Confusion yes, even internal wars, but even in the past no one tried to challenge what had been settled. The saints say we need to walk by faith and not by sight. This means we must trust ourselves to our creator like Abraham did. I think it’s possible that a great many saints are being forged in this crisis that will lead to an explosion of miracles for modern times. I must believe that or I will have to believe that the church has or is dying.

 

[TMC]

I am listening to Jesus Christ.

Oh. And who do you suppose the Pope and rest of the Church are listening to? Or do you believe you are the only one with access to Truth directly from Jesus?

 

[abucs]

More and More I am starting to understand those folks who are anti-organized religion.

I am getting tired of being told just how bad a christian

I am being told I am a bad catholic because I will not knuckle under to progressive modernistic relativism. Only good catholic are open to change! Those that are unwilling to change are just plan bad, well if that is the case, I am going to place my faith in God not the church.

I am also for the church Philipi and do not believe you are a bad Christian. Perhaps many Progressives who would call you that are themselves bad Christians, or in fact not Christian at all. They tend to use the church’s teaching like a straight-jacket when they can present it to support themselves but then talk about freedom and conscience when it can’t.

They have lost Philipi and will not be around the place for much longer. The ‘organised religion’ of Catholicism is what helped to defeat them.

 

[RCinMT]

Indeed. My impression had been that there are three types in all of this. There are people who believe the church because they believe Christ first and there are others who seem to believe Christ only because they believe the church and a third type whose true religion is their liberal politics and the Pope’s authority is only a tool in service to that which holds their genuine allegiance. You can tell the third group by doing a little digging into their history. While they seem to champion Pope Francis’ authority today, they boldly argued that the church was plain wrong and fallible not too long ago. Until the pope started playing to their tune. The second group are devout but will vehemently attack you in the first group for not following a weird kind of blind allegiance that they subscribe to; the first is on some spectrum of an internal crisis; some confident the church will pull through eventually and seeing this is a painful but temporary phase, some with one foot already out the door and a host of them somewhere in between these two ends of the spectrum suffering deeply. Me? I follow the church only because I believe her to be true. The moment it is established she has been teaching falsely for 2000 years, I will be forced to wave her a painful good bye.

If it’s okay, I would like to ask you several questions in a charitable way to help me understand what you’re saying here.

1. Do you believe the Church is the Church founded by Christ?
2. Do you believe in the apostolic succession, that the teachings of the Church date back to the apostles with ongoing doctrine?
3. Do you believe you have authority (which is not to say “who do you think you are” but rather a source of truth or teachings) to make a proper determination of when the teachings of the Church turn out to be false?

I will have no reason to submit myself to her authority anymore. This is the crisis the second group doesn’t understand about the first group and that the third fully gets but doesn’t care because it has been THEIR tenet all along: that the church has no genuine authority and should leave everyone the hell alone: whatever they now seem to say about this same authority when they have something there to grab on to.

This leads back to question three: what makes your hypothetical third group wrong in deciding the Church has no authority because it doesn’t comport with their politics when, ostensibly, you are saying another group could be justified in making the same claim, possibly at some point in the near future?

That said, I went to mass and confession for the first time in a very long time. I was definitely at the exit door but still in the church though standing at the exit and looking around for my next journey or home. I started getting signs from everywhere since yesterday, loved ones sending me psalms that fit my crisis exactly and a kindly priest. God sayin I am your soul’s portion, put your hope in ME; I am your shephard; I will tell you where to go and what to do; Even the priests message and I hadnt told him my crisis exactly, just confessed my sins, gave me words that fit me exactly and that were very comforting. Every time I leaned on God and asked for help to do what I needed at that timr, it seemed to arrive. I have started a new journey which I don’t know how it will end but I will try a fourth route: A leap of faith.

If you believe in Christ and the Church teachings on the truth of the Eucharist if nothing else, why would you ever let anybody keep you from communion? There are people who have died and even now are literally dying for the Eucharist: personally, I wouldn’t care if I walked into mass to find the only people in the church were Christ, the priest and myself joined by 1000 vipers: I would sit down, hear the word and receive Christ in the Eucharist. My views of the other people in the pews and their politics mean nothing.

We in this period are tried in a way I believe others have nit been in the church before, no matter what people say to comfort us about this having happened in the past. We have never witnessed such highranking politics with the sacred deposit itself. Confusion yes, even internal wars, but even in the past no one tried to challenge what had been settled. The saints say we need to walk by faith and not by sight. This means we must trust ourselves to our creator like Abraham did. I think it’s possible that a great many saints are being forged in this crisis that will lead to an explosion of miracles for modern times. I must believe that or I will have to believe that the church has or is dying.

If indeed we are being tried, I would not think that a person would be considered to have passed the trial by walking away from the Church based on generalizations about the political beliefs of some of our co-religionists or even some of the Church hierarchy. If one truly thinks that is the correct answer than the option already exists to join those who remain in the mainline Protestant ranks, the evangelicals or break away sects like SSPX. What you’re proposing could happen, already has. Kind of reminds me of Chestrton saying about Catholicism that he thought he was going out on a brave new adventure and discovering new things only to find it had all been discovered before.

 

[ringil]

I agree with what you are saying. It does pain me to say this but I just feel like this is all so pathetic. It is ridiculous to try put forth these changes and call it the Holy Spirit - if you are going to have doctrine say one thing, then change it… so many will just run with this ‘at peace with God’ ‘gradualism’ miles further than CDR. You’re in Protestantism without even leaving your parish.

And to top it off with the charge that a Catholic lacks mercy and the courage to change if he/she has the temerity to take issue with this. I am still struggling with what do with the my realization of what is going on here. Emperor has no clothes. I have stated before I couldn’t believe in the infallibility of the Pope - it stretches credulity too far in the face of history, now this.

But can the Church go on in the face of this, effectively. And what of all the good faithful servants in it? At all levels? I still feel like there is a way forward. I blow off the ‘rigid’ criticism (kind of a badge of honor really) and go about my business as a Christian - bad Catholic, good Christian is how I look at it. I will say this is a hard time though; I feel so bad for the Church. As you note, God, faith, the Gospel will no doubt be fine. I feel a loss of community in the Church, growing division. Talk about going out with a whimper…

I see great enthusiasm in the Church under the papacy of Pope Francis.

Each Pope brings their own strengths and Francis has brought many within and without the Church to a greater respect and devotion.

It is a tiny minority who see some kind of “crisis” going one. The vast majority in the Church see us moving in a positive direction- always guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ginny89]

If it’s okay, I would like to ask you several questions in a charitable way to help me understand what you’re saying here.

1. Do you believe the Church is the Church founded by Christ?
2. Do you believe in the apostolic succession, that the teachings of the Church date back to the apostles with ongoing doctrine?
3. Do you believe you have authority (which is not to say “who do you think you are” but rather a source of truth or teachings) to make a proper determination of when the teachings of the Church turn out to be false?

This leads back to question three: what makes your hypothetical third group wrong in deciding the Church has no authority because it doesn’t comport with their politics when, ostensibly, you are saying another group could be justified in making the same claim, possibly at some point in the near future?

If you believe in Christ and the Church teachings on the truth of the Eucharist if nothing else, why would you ever let anybody keep you from communion? There are people who have died and even now are literally dying for the Eucharist: personally, I wouldn’t care if I walked into mass to find the only people in the church were Christ, the priest and myself joined by 1000 vipers: I would sit down, hear the word and receive Christ in the Eucharist. My views of the other people in the pews and their politics mean nothing.

If indeed we are being tried, I would not think that a person would be considered to have passed the trial by walking away from the Church based on generalizations about the political beliefs of some of our co-religionists or even some of the Church hierarchy. If one truly thinks that is the correct answer than the option already exists to join those who remain in the mainline Protestant ranks, the evangelicals or break away sects like SSPX. What you’re proposing could happen, already has. Kind of reminds me of Chestrton saying about Catholicism that he thought he was going out on a brave new adventure and discovering new things only to find it had all been discovered before.

Your questions are all based on wrong presumptions. I don’t need to claim any authority for myself to judge whether or not the church is being consistent with HER OWN TEACHINGS. I just need simple reason. My measure for when the church is telling the truth is the church herself. If the church today tells me that what SHE herself was teaching authoritatively for centuries was wrong, THAT is how I judge if she is not true after all, by her own confession through her self-contradiction. After all, if she could be wrong for 2000 years, why would I believe that she is right about anything else she says today? If not, tell me how YOU decided that the Catholic church is the true church as opposed to any orthodox church if it was not proven by her own consistency for two millenia?

It is not “people” keeping me from communion. It was my very serious doubt that the church was who she had claimed to be which demotivated me from vigillantly keeping all her laws. As I did not want to defile the Eucharist, I did not dare approach communion until I could make a true confession.

 

[RCinMT]

Your questions are all based on wrong presumptions. I don’t need to claim any authority for myself to judge whether or not the church is being consistent with HER OWN TEACHINGS. I just need simple reason. My measure for when the church is telling the truth is the church herself. If the church today tells me that what SHE herself was teaching authoritatively for centuries was wrong, THAT is how I judge if she is not true after all, by her own confession through her self-contradiction. After all, if she could be wrong for 2000 years, why would I believe that she is right about anything else she says today? If not, tell me how YOU decided that the Catholic church is the true church as opposed to any orthodox church if it was not proven by her own consistency for two millenia?

It is not “people” keeping me from communion. It was my very serious doubt that the church was who she had claimed to be which demotivated me from vigillantly keeping all her laws. As I did not want to defile the Eucharist, I did not dare approach communion until I could make a true confession.

Thanks, Ginny. Your own post references people attacking other people and the final paragraph discusses politics and polemics in the hierarchy. Given the clarification you provide above, are you proposing than that you would become Orthodox or atheist-agnostic or Jewish or some other religion? If you would remain Christian but not join another denomination, what authority would you site for the beliefs you would decide to be true?

All that said, can you cite what teachings or doctrine the Church is now claiming to be false?

 

[Ginny89]

Ginny, your own post references people attacking other people and the final paragraph discusses politics and polemics in the hierarchy.

All that said, what teachings or doctrine is the Church is now claiming to be false?

She has not yet done so. That is precisely the point of my saying in the post you reffered to and quoted earlier

The moment it is established she has been teaching falsely for 2000 years, I will be forced to wave her a painful good bye.

Notice I said “will be…”

The highranking politics damaged my already weak faith and made me doubt that God was really guiding the church. As I explained in another thread, it couldnt have happened at a worse time for me. Yes, the scandal of realizing that those “in the know” do not seem to be themselves very convinced of the church’s claims weakened my faith.

Perhaps you are very strong in your faith. You may be the “this is temporary and will pass” type I referred to earlier or even the “whatever the present hierarchs do or say is right even if it denies what was clearly taught yesterday and how dare you not shut your brain and swallow it even if you see a contradiction?” type or something else. It doesn’t really matter. If you are perfectly secure in your faith and place in the church them that is what really matters and I am very happy for you. But that is not something I or others like me can just borrow from you and others like you. Some of us are, yes, weak. When the most certain thing to us up until 5 seconds ago (the church) becomes all shakey and rumbling, that can and has really damaged our faith in it.