Pope raps Christians who do not want change [CC]

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Ginny89 said:
She has not yet done so. That is precisely the point of my saying in the post you reffered to and quoted earlier
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And yet you say your faith is shaken and you have one foot out the door. You’ve stopped attending mass on the grounds of something that hasn’t happened but could?

That would be like one saying that he or she is divorcing his or her spouse on the grounds that he or she may commit adultrey some day.
Notice I said “will be…”
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Why not “could” instead of “will”?
The highranking politics damaged my already weak faith and made me doubt that God was really guiding the church. As I explained in another thread, it couldnt have happened at a worse time for me. Yes, the scandal of realizing that those “in the know” do not seem to be themselves very convinced of the church’s claims weakened my faith.
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Who in the know has said they doubt the truth claims of the Church?
Perhaps you are very strong in your faith. You may be the “this is temporary and will pass” type I referred to earlier or even the “whatever the present hierarchs do or say is right even if it denies what was clearly taught yesterday and how dare you not shut your brain and swallow it even if you see a contradiction?” type or something else. It doesn’t really matter. If you are perfectly secure in your faith and place in the church them that is what really matters and I am very happy for you. But that is not something I or others like me can just borrow from you and others like you. Some of us are, yes, weak. When the most certain thing to us up until 5 seconds ago (the church) becomes all shakey and rumbling, that can and has really damaged our faith in it.
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My faith is strong because I see my own fragility, weakness and stupidity. It’s easy for me to say that I believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and to consent to and understand that there are many mysteries of God which leads to a need for ongoing doctrinal development. If I didn’t believe those two things than I wouldn’t be Catholic in the first place: I would either be an atheist or a fundamentalist, claiming the Bible as a line-by-line literal passing down of God’s word with no need for translation, explanation or expounding upon by human beings.
 
RCinMT said:
My faith is strong because I see my own fragility, weakness and stupidity. It’s easy for me to say that I believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and to consent to and understand that there are many mysteries of God which leads to a need for ongoing doctrinal development. If I didn’t believe those two things than I wouldn’t be Catholic in the first place: I would either be an atheist or a fundamentalist, claiming the Bible as a line-by-line literal passing down of God’s word with no need for translation, explanation or expounding upon by human beings.
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Well, congratulations then. You are a better Catholic than I am. I dont honestly understand the point of this little “debate” though. It amounts to you saying to me “How dare your faith be wounded by this or that? Mine never would!” Well, good for you. But how does your saying so affect anything about my own inner struggle?
 
Ginny89 said:
Well, congratulations then. You are a better Catholic than I am. I dont honestly understand the point of this little “debate” though. It amounts to you saying to me “How dare your faith be wounded by this or that? Mine never would!” Well, good for you. But how does your saying so affect anything about my own inner struggle?
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No, I am a lousy Catholic and I am not trying to debate. I want to understand you and maybe help you ask questions you hadn’t considered. I don’t want you to leave the Church, I want to help provide reasons for you to stay instead of looking for reasons to leave. 😊

The only thing the Church has taught without change for 2000 years is that Christ is the son of God, died for our sins and provided us instruction on how to live. Saints Peter and Paul fought about doctrine. Transubstantiation, I believe, isn’t an eternal teaching. A lot of what we believe about Mary is relatively new doctrine. The prohibition on priestly marriage hasn’t been consistent since the founding of the Church. Ever new, ever the same.

Now maybe all of those points shake your faith more (I hope not) but if those things didn’t trouble you before than my point is to hopefully help you reconsider whether doctrinal developments in our own days should trouble you this much. Does that make sense? :o
 
RCinMT said:
No, I am a lousy Catholic and I am not trying to debate. I want to understand you and maybe help you ask questions you hadn’t considered. I don’t want you to leave the Church, I want to help provide reasons for you to stay instead of looking for reasons to leave. 😊

The only thing the Church has taught without change for 2000 years is that Christ is the son of God, died for our sins and provided us instruction on how to live. Saints Peter and Paul fought about doctrine. Transubstantiation, I believe, isn’t an eternal teaching. A lot of what we believe about Mary is relatively new doctrine. The prohibition on priestly marriage hasn’t been consistent since the founding of the Church. Ever new, ever the same.

Now maybe all of those points shake your faith more (I hope not) but if those things didn’t trouble you before than my point is to hopefully help you reconsider whether doctrinal developments in our own days should trouble you this much. Does that make sense? :o
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Well, I went to mass and confession this Sunday after a long long time. Probably because of the prayers of the members of this forum. In fact, as I explained here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1037191
…the primary reason for my joining this place was to request prayers from devout or at least still practising catholics. I know doctrine. That is not the missing link; in fact it may be part of my problems. I am planning to keep attending mass and refrain from sins as much as I can in a child-like trust where I ask God for the grace of this moment. That’s the best I can do for now. I don’t believe reasoning it out is my route though I very much appreciate your concern for me and do ask that you pray.for me and those like me. :gopray:
 
Ginny89 said:
Well, I went to mass and confession this Sunday after a long long time. Probably because of the prayers of the members of this forum. In fact, as I explained here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1037191
…the primary reason for my joining this place was to request prayers from devout or at least still practising catholics. I know doctrine. That is not the missing link; in fact it may be part of my problems. I am planning to keep attending mass and refrain from sins as much as I can in a child-like trust where I ask God for the grace of this moment. That’s the best I can do for now. I don’t believe reasoning it out is my route though I very much appreciate your concern for me and do ask that you pray.for me and those like me. :gopray:
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I will and do and ask I too ask for your prayers.
 
josh987654321 said:
Without any specifics of the change Our Holy Father is referring to, this is thus meaningless and I for one will discard it as we all should! Unless there is a reference to specifics, this cannot produce any good fruit.
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Is that really the case?, that it has to refer to a specific change. I don’t know of anyone who cannot become more like Christ (including myself) , but the needed change in each person is different.

Some DO need to become more aware of sin, others, in speaking kindly, others in charitable works, others in more attendance at Mass. But in every case, the change would be an internal one, and therefore unique.
 
When the pope actually tells us what he wants to change then I will sit up and listen. If it is a change in doctrine like allowing people with mortal sins to to go for communion.
 
RCinMT said:
If you believe in Christ and the Church teachings on the truth of the Eucharist if nothing else, why would you ever let anybody keep you from communion? There are people who have died and even now are literally dying for the Eucharist: personally, I wouldn’t care if I walked into mass to find the only people in the church were Christ, the priest and myself joined by 1000 vipers: I would sit down, hear the word and receive Christ in the Eucharist. My views of the other people in the pews and their politics mean nothing.
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Exactly. We live in the temporal world of change. It is a continuous process where it is too much to demand perfection of the Church. The Church can approach perfection at a given moment in time, but this cannot be completely fulfilled before the end of time.
 
Brendan said:
Is that really the case?, that it has to refer to a specific change. I don’t know of anyone who cannot become more like Christ (including myself) , but the needed change in each person is different.

Some DO need to become more aware of sin, others, in speaking kindly, others in charitable works, others in more attendance at Mass. But in every case, the change would be an internal one, and therefore unique.
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But don’t you see, you just took what you wanted from it and so will everyone else who reads this, because there are no specifics, so it’s meaningless and to be discarded.

Some people can change to become worse and some can change to become better, it all depends on what the change is. Not wanting and resisting change can be a very noble and virtuous thing if they are bad/evil changes.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
ChurchSoldier said:
I actually might agree with him on this. There are many in the church today who are very comfortable living their life, attending mass and donating periodically to a food drive or charity who would claim complete satisfaction and fulfillment of Christian duty.
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Wait–so now it is wrong to attend Mass regularly and donate to food drives and charities? How is that not fulfilling one’s Christian duties?

It would be nice (perhaps even preferable) that every soul was on fire for the Lord and worked tirelessly in fresh new ways to help spread the faith; however, not everyone has those gifts and wouldn’t it be a far better world if all Catholics attended Mass and donated to food drives and charities? IMO, the world is a mess because so few people do the things you listed above. Doing those things does not equate to lukewarmness, it equates a being a person of faith who desires to be obedient and who wants to do their share. I just can’t fathom what would happen to the world if all 1.2 billion Catholics followed the model of regularly attending Mass and giving to charities. It would be a literal transformation of the world.

I think we need to NOT bash Catholics who try to do what is right. We need bunches more of those people–not less.
 
I think what Pope Francis meant was quite general. He wasn’t addressing those who actively resist change, I believe, but rather those who are content with the status quo–i.e., those he refers to as “lazy”.
 
Thomas_White said:
I think what Pope Francis meant was quite general. He wasn’t addressing those who actively resist change, I believe, but rather those who are content with the status quo–i.e., those he refers to as “lazy”.
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I don’t know what our Holy Father meant–so I won’t guess.

For my own part, I will say we could use millions more who attend Mass regularly and give to charities–even if that is all they did regarding the faith.

Mass attendance in the USA was in the 70%+ range, while today it is 17.7% (go here for a more clear breakdown: churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts-an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html). I believe Western Culture is far healthier when rates are much higher.
 
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