Pope revisits 'punishing' rules on Catholic divorce

[Julianna]

Oh, it doesn’t surprise me that the explosion in the divorce rate leads to an explosion in annulments. What surprises me is the explosion in divorce rates to begin with. Growing up, I knew no one in my parish, my school, my neighborhood, Catholic or non-Catholic, with divorced parents. I never met a kid with divorced parents until I was out of school, and I’m including my friends in secular schools. People just didn’t seem to have lot of trouble making vows of lifelong marriage and meaning them and keeping them. Now they do.

Back in the day…a husband could be beating his wife to a pulp and no one knew. A wife could be cheating and they didn’t want anyone to know because it would bring humiliation on the family. Many women in the 60s were addicted to “mothers little helper” because her Don Draper husband continued his affair with the receptionist …for years. Another husband told his wife “she was not going to work outside the home”…despite her degree she worked for when they were in college together. A drug addict spouse who refuses help…the sober spouse stays because they don’t want anyone to know. Women were the ones…back in the day who were told to put on some makeup and smile… They stayed to save face…while emotionally and spiritually they were dying. When they found out they did not have live a life like this and for the kids…they got divorced.

 

[Phemie]

Oh, it doesn’t surprise me that the explosion in the divorce rate leads to an explosion in annulments. What surprises me is the explosion in divorce rates to begin with. Growing up, I knew no one in my parish, my school, my neighborhood, Catholic or non-Catholic, with divorced parents. I never met a kid with divorced parents until I was out of school, and I’m including my friends in secular schools. People just didn’t seem to have lot of trouble making vows of lifelong marriage and meaning them and keeping them. Now they do.

It was harder to divorce when you had to prove a reason. Today getting a divorce is as easy as filing the papers.

Like you, none of my peers’ parents were divorced - even those who should have been to protect the wife and kids. My first experience of annulment was a couple whose marriage I had attended while in elementary school. Bride’s parents were rich (by community standards), groom’s parents were poor, bride was pregnant. Free consent? Hmm.

Fast forward about 8 years and the groom is getting remarried in the Church. Questions arose and that’s when I learned about annulments and the reasons for finding a marriage null.

 

[JimG]

Back in the day…a husband could be beating his wife to a pulp and no one knew. A wife could be cheating and they didn’t want anyone to know because it would bring humiliation on the family. Many women in the 60s were addicted to “mothers little helper” because her Don Draper husband continued his affair with the receptionist …for years. Another husband told his wife “she was not going to work outside the home”…despite her degree she worked for when they were in college together. A drug addict spouse who refuses help…the sober spouse stays because they don’t want anyone to know. Women were the ones…back in the day who were told to put on some makeup and smile… They stayed to save face…while emotionally and spiritually they were dying. When they found out they did not have live a life like this and for the kids…they got divorced.

That’s what I keep hearing, but I simply do not believe it about the majority of my neighbors, whom I knew pretty well. I knew the ones who were having marital problems, none of them were so severe as what you describe. I look back at my own parents and all their friends, and now people are being taught that they were all miserable and unhappy. But they weren’t.

 

[JimG]

It was harder to divorce when you had to prove a reason. Today getting a divorce is as easy as filing the papers.

Like you, none of my peers’ parents were divorced - even those who should have been to protect the wife and kids. My first experience of annulment was a couple whose marriage I had attended while in elementary school. Bride’s parents were rich (by community standards), groom’s parents were poor, bride was pregnant. Free consent? Hmm.

Fast forward about 8 years and the groom is getting remarried in the Church. Questions arose and that’s when I learned about annulments and the reasons for finding a marriage null.

Yes, today getting a divorce is easier than getting out of a cell phone contract or a mortgage, which are a lot more binding.

There may be something to be said for no fault divorce—i.e., that it’s easy. But it gives the spouse who wants out all the power. In the past, a woman whose husband was committing adultery would have grounds for divorce, and depending on the length of the marriage, she would also have grounds for a sizeable alimony settlement as liquidated damages for all the years she put into the marriage.

Children, of course, are completely powerless at the hands of spouses who desire to break up their home.

 

[Julianna]

That’s what I keep hearing, but I simply do not believe it about the majority of my neighbors, whom I knew pretty well. I knew the ones who were having marital problems, none of them were so severe as what you describe. I look back at my own parents and all their friends, and now people are being taught that they were all miserable and unhappy. But they weren’t.

You’re probably right in your experience. In a broader view of marriage. …Catholic or not…many marriages were just going through the motions. There was one divorcee…in our neighborhood. …and she asked my dad to fix the deck boards on the back of her house. The good Catholic women in my neighborhood told my mother she should forbid my dad from going over there to help her. (The woman and her ex husband. …both Catholic… 2 kids…circa. 1968) oh and this woman was shunned by the good Catholic women in the neighborhood. … he had an affair and she threw him out. Anyway. …my mother said to my dad to go help her…he did…she paid him and she called my mom and asked if she could make some curtains for her living room. She never worried about my dad jumping in the sack with the divorcee. Oh I found out many years later…the biddees. …were all hooked on valium. …

Harper Valley PAT in spades.

 

[1newcatholic]

That’s what I keep hearing, but I simply do not believe it about the majority of my neighbors, whom I knew pretty well. I knew the ones who were having marital problems, none of them were so severe as what you describe. I look back at my own parents and all their friends, and now people are being taught that they were all miserable and unhappy. But they weren’t.

How do you know how other people felt during their marriages decades ago?

One reason divorce became more common is because certain draconian and punitive divorce laws–which were grounded in a Puritanical moral tradition and designed to discourage divorce–changed so that women and men who sought divorce were no longer shamed by the courts. Certainly there are many reasons, and not just one reason, that divorce is so frequent now, but I think a good chunk of marriages end in divorce because spouses who might have been trapped in a loveless or abusive marriage decades ago are, today, free to start over.

 

[JimG]

How do you know how other people felt during their marriages decades ago?

One reason divorce became more common is because certain draconian and punitive divorce laws–which were grounded in a Puritanical moral tradition and designed to discourage divorce–changed so that women and men who sought divorce were no longer shamed by the courts. Certainly there are many reasons, and not just one reason, that divorce is so frequent now, but I think a good chunk of marriages end in divorce because spouses who might have been trapped in a loveless or abusive marriage decades ago are, today, free to start over.

Well, I’m pretty darn old, so I know at least somewhat how other people felt in prior decades. Now, it’s almost as if they are all being maligned by everyone saying they were really unhappy and wouldn’t admit it.

Now divorce is widely available, and yet marriage seems now to be becoming less and less popular among the young. The marriage rate is declining. Perhaps many see that they can never be sure that once married, their spouse will not file for no-fault divorce. Does the lack of permanence lead to lack of faith in marriage?

 

[phil19034]

Well, I’m pretty darn old, so I know at least somewhat how other people felt in prior decades. Now, it’s almost as if they are all being maligned by everyone saying they were really unhappy and wouldn’t admit it.

Now divorce is widely available, and yet marriage seems now to be becoming less and less popular among the young. The marriage rate is declining. **Perhaps many see that they can never be sure that once married, their spouse will not file for no-fault divorce. **Does the lack of permanence lead to lack of faith in marriage?

I agree that fear of divorce might be a reason why some avoid marriage.

 

[InFlux]

How do you know how other people felt during their marriages decades ago?

One reason divorce became more common is because certain draconian and punitive divorce laws–which were grounded in a Puritanical moral tradition and designed to discourage divorce–changed so that women and men who sought divorce were no longer shamed by the courts. Certainly there are many reasons, and not just one reason, that divorce is so frequent now, but I think a good chunk of marriages end in divorce because spouses who might have been trapped in a loveless or abusive marriage decades ago are, today, free to start over.

Well, I’m pretty darn old, so I know at least somewhat how other people felt in prior decades. Now, it’s almost as if they are all being maligned by everyone saying they were really unhappy and wouldn’t admit it.

Now divorce is widely available, and yet marriage seems now to be becoming less and less popular among the young. The marriage rate is declining. Perhaps many see that they can never be sure that once married, their spouse will not file for no-fault divorce. Does the lack of permanence lead to lack of faith in marriage?

I’m pretty old, too, and likewise don’t remember all the horrible marriages nor the ‘draconian’ regulations.

Agree, also, that the uncertainty is the biggest problem today’s couples face. Society in general and the Church in particular with her strict code used to provide the needed security. Was that ‘draconian’?

 

[JimG]

I’m pretty old, too, and likewise don’t remember all the horrible marriages nor the ‘draconian’ regulations.

Agree, also, that the uncertainty is the biggest problem today’s couples face. Society in general and the Church in particular with her strict code used to provide the needed security. Was that ‘draconian’?

The absolute certainty that marriage was for life, in fact helped marriage, because it allowed love to flourish in an atmosphere of surety. The partners knew they were together for life; they had every reason to make that life together one full of love giving.

The problem now is that young people think that marriage is just like cohabitation, and it scares them. But marriage is far different from mere cohabitation.

Here is a pertinent analysis of how society took a drastically wrong turn when the sexual revolution began to destroy marriage and family:

ncregister.com/daily-news/wages-of-the-sexual-revolution/#ixzz3HNL0CajE

 

[InFlux]

The absolute certainty that marriage was for life, in fact helped marriage, because it allowed love to flourish in an atmosphere of surety. The partners knew they were together for life; they had every reason to make that life together one full of love giving.

The problem now is that young people think that marriage is just like cohabitation, and it scares them. But marriage is far different from mere cohabitation.

Here is a pertinent analysis of how society took a drastically wrong turn when the sexual revolution began to destroy marriage and family:

ncregister.com/daily-news/wages-of-the-sexual-revolution/#ixzz3HNL0CajE

Your comment is spot on, JimG. The NC Register article made some good points as well, but seems to be overly-optimistic, IMHO. To insist that only the secularists have failed to connect the dots ignores the sad fact that most Catholics, including most clerics, also seem to want a further erosion of moral (ahem: i mean ‘punitive’) standards.

 

[Teelynn]

The absolute certainty that marriage was for life, in fact helped marriage, because it allowed love to flourish in an atmosphere of surety. The partners knew they were together for life; they had every reason to make that life together one full of love giving.

The problem now is that young people think that marriage is just like cohabitation, and it scares them. But marriage is far different from mere cohabitation.

Here is a pertinent analysis of how society took a drastically wrong turn when the sexual revolution began to destroy marriage and family:

ncregister.com/daily-news/wages-of-the-sexual-revolution/#ixzz3HNL0CajE

Thank you for this link Jim. Humanae Vitae was indeed a roadmap of what the family would look like if artificial birth control were to be introduced into society. I would say, one of the most important documents (next to Theology of the Body) on marriage and the family in this Century. And…I wonder how many of you remember how it was received by both Priests and Laity alike (in this country anyway).? A large portion of the Catholic world rejected it outright. And…here we are in 2014 looking at all the destruction and chaos with marriage and the family, just exactly as prophesied by Pope Paul’s crucially important encyclical. He laid out the entire destructive roadmap, and the world said …NOPE NOT LISTENING.

 

[InFlux]

Thank you for this link Jim. Humanae Vitae was indeed a roadmap of what the family would look like if artificial birth control were to be introduced into society. I would say, one of the most important documents (next to Theology of the Body) on marriage and the family in this Century. And…I wonder how many of you remember how it was received by both Priests and Laity alike (in this country anyway).? A large portion of the Catholic world rejected it outright. And…here we are in 2014 looking at all the destruction and chaos with marriage and the family, just exactly as prophesied by Pope Paul’s crucially important encyclical. He laid out the entire destructive roadmap, and the world said …NOPE NOT LISTENING.

Humanae Vitae was quite obviously a Petrine and prophetic work. Faced with the cry for ‘reform’, Paul VI nonetheless reiterated the Church’s unchangeable teaching on marriage and sexuality. He held true to his duty to safeguard the faith as entrusted to him. Likewise, in calling an end to the ‘dialogue’ over the ordination of women, John Paul II repeated and reemphasized the Church’s ancient teaching, saying he had no authority to change what Christ Himself had established. True Papal authority is authority to guard the faith, perhaps to deepen our understanding of it, but never to change what has once been revealed as Truth.

By contrast, just the fact that Francis has called this synod and is advocating ‘openness to change’ is very troubling. The sedevacantists’ theory explains this otherwise inexplicable behavior of a Pope. But their theory fails to explain Humanae Vitae, Theology of the Body, etc, and so I for one remain without a reasonable explanation nor reliable guide.

 

[shelby_sun]

Back in the day…a husband could be beating his wife to a pulp and no one knew. A wife could be cheating and they didn’t want anyone to know because it would bring humiliation on the family. Many women in the 60s were addicted to “mothers little helper” because her Don Draper husband continued his affair with the receptionist …for years. Another husband told his wife “she was not going to work outside the home”…despite her degree she worked for when they were in college together. A drug addict spouse who refuses help…the sober spouse stays because they don’t want anyone to know. Women were the ones…back in the day who were told to put on some makeup and smile… They stayed to save face…while emotionally and spiritually they were dying. When they found out they did not have live a life like this and for the kids…they got divorced.

I think you are exactly right and spot on with your post. Women are simply not willing to give up there life and happiness to “seem OK” in their unhappy marriage just to save face. Rather than seeing that women are taking care of themselves, they seen as not being committed to their marriage. Wow, that seems really twisted IMO.

 

[shelby_sun]

That’s what I keep hearing, but I simply do not believe it about the majority of my neighbors, whom I knew pretty well. I knew the ones who were having marital problems, none of them were so severe as what you describe. I look back at my own parents and all their friends, and now people are being taught that they were all miserable and unhappy. But they weren’t.

Jim, please forgive me but you seem very naïve. People can cover up anything if they work hard enough. My mother is an alcoholic who has been sober for 40 year and has been an active member in AA for that long. I cannot tell you how much stuff is going on behind closed door that no one ever knows; affairs, abuse, addiction. You simply do not want to believe it. Some of the most upstanding people, great parents, wonderful leaders are doing sinful things everyday.

When you say marriage is suppose to be for life, you ignore those who are being left, humiliated, abused , whether emotionally or physically. You make it sound like every divorce comes from 2 people who never really tried and just gave up and moved on. That is simply not the normal divorce.

I myself have been in a troubled marriage for ten years. I have stayed, like you think I should for life, yet I have NO self worth to the point that suicide has entered my mind at times. Is that really what you think God wants for me as one of His children. To fulfil my commitment at the cost of my whole self. I think your thinking maybe limited. Is that what you would tell one of your own children to do, to endure abuse to stay married because it is for life?

 

[Tigg]

Jim, please forgive me but you seem very naïve. People can cover up anything if they work hard enough. My mother is an alcoholic who has been sober for 40 year and has been an active member in AA for that long. I cannot tell you how much stuff is going on behind closed door that no one ever knows; affairs, abuse, addiction. You simply do not want to believe it. Some of the most upstanding people, great parents, wonderful leaders are doing sinful things everyday.

When you say marriage is suppose to be for life, you ignore those who are being left, humiliated, abused , whether emotionally or physically. You make it sound like every divorce comes from 2 people who never really tried and just gave up and moved on. That is simply not the normal divorce.

I myself have been in a troubled marriage for ten years. I have stayed, like you think I should for life, yet I have NO self worth to the point that suicide has entered my mind at times. Is that really what you think God wants for me as one of His children. To fulfil my commitment at the cost of my whole self. I think your thinking maybe limited. Is that what you would tell one of your own children to do, to endure abuse to stay married because it is for life?

We are all broken people - every single one of us in some way. That’s what sin does. Do you not believe God has compassion for the things you describe and can be the antidote? Or do you think Him too weak and uninterested? The answer, as corny and simplistic as it may sound to you, is an active faith life. I’m sorry, but my extended family history is not so rosy either and the problems mentioned in these posts are not so very unique. But a few in our family circle can testify they have experienced such great grace that their lives have dramatically changed. But the key you see, is always to put the Lord **first **and cultivate a love for Him in your heart. “Seek ye first the kingdom of God…” Life is messy and full of terrible pain. Hurts and problems beyond the human capacity to fix. What is needed is faith and a renewal of trust. Why do some expect the Church to provide a more human solution when she offers a much greater supernatural help leading to healing?

 

[shelby_sun]

We are all broken people - every single one of us in some way. That’s what sin does. Do you not believe God has compassion for the things you describe and can be the antidote? Or do you think Him too weak and uninterested? The answer, as corny and simplistic as it may sound to you, is an active faith life. I’m sorry, but my extended family history is not so rosy either and your problems are not so very unique. But a few in the family circle can testify they have experienced such great grace that their lives have dramatically changed. But the key you see, is always to put the Lord **first **and cultivate a love for Him in your heart. “Seek ye first the kingdom of God…” Life is messy and full of terrible pain. Hurts and problems beyond the human capacity to fix. What is needed is faith and a renewal of trust. Why do some expect the Church to provide a more human solution when she offers a much greater supernatural help leading to healing?

Yes that is right Tigg, we are all broken. I never said God didn’t have compassion, in fact, I think He has a great compassion for His children and he understands the need for some people to end their marriage in order to save their lives, their sanity, their self worth and their souls, do you not? Where did I EVER imply that God was weak and disinterested. I find that uncharitable of you to restate my point that way. Nor did I say anything that would lead to a remark that I would find something corny or simplistic.

The way you state things makes me sure I should no longer reply to your post or I will certainly get an infraction. God knows who fought for their marriage and who walked away because it was not what they expected. He knows all the reasons for divorce and the impossibility that 100% of every couple in all of Catholic marriage over history could stay together. IMO the increase in divorce comes from women stepping up and believing they are worth more than being a mere possession. I respect those that stay married, but not at the cost of ones self worth, which is a gift from God!

 

[Scottgun]

[edited to something less snarky] The is no obligation to stay with an abusive spouse even if one greatly perceives such an obligation. In any case, this has little bearing on the fact that valid marriages are indissoluble and that going outside of a marriage is adultery. The reasons why people divorce are a worthwhile discussion, but here it’s a rabbit trail.

 

[Tigg]

The way you state things makes me sure I should no longer reply to your post or I will certainly get an infraction. God knows who fought for their marriage and who walked away because it was not what they expected. He knows all the reasons for divorce and the impossibility that 100% of every couple in all of Catholic marriage over history could stay together. IMO the increase in divorce comes from women stepping up and believing they are worth more than being a mere possession. I respect those that stay married, but not at the cost of ones self worth, which is a gift from God!

I would have wished for you to respond to the very heart of my post which you did not. **“But the key you see, is always to put the Lord first and cultivate a love for Him in your heart.” **The reasons for divorce and the societal problems we encounter is understood in a personal way by the Lord and He responds to each individual. These are not empty words. Every problem we believe insurmountable…is not. I will pray that you and others find solace in the remedy the Church offers - thru the sacraments, Mass and the love offered to sustain you.

 

[JimG]

Jim, please forgive me but you seem very naïve. People can cover up anything if they work hard enough. My mother is an alcoholic who has been sober for 40 year and has been an active member in AA for that long. I cannot tell you how much stuff is going on behind closed door that no one ever knows; affairs, abuse, addiction. You simply do not want to believe it. Some of the most upstanding people, great parents, wonderful leaders are doing sinful things everyday.

When you say marriage is suppose to be for life, you ignore those who are being left, humiliated, abused , whether emotionally or physically. You make it sound like every divorce comes from 2 people who never really tried and just gave up and moved on. That is simply not the normal divorce.

I myself have been in a troubled marriage for ten years. I have stayed, like you think I should for life, yet I have NO self worth to the point that suicide has entered my mind at times. Is that really what you think God wants for me as one of His children. To fulfil my commitment at the cost of my whole self. I think your thinking maybe limited. Is that what you would tell one of your own children to do, to endure abuse to stay married because it is for life?

It’s true that marriage vows are for life. But let me be clear, neither I, nor the Church, advocates for anyone staying in an abusive situation. There comes a time when one has to limit the damage, to just get out, even get a civil divorce. I wouldn’t ask anyone to remain with an abusive spouse. Catholic Charities even operates emergency shelters to help families get out of such situations.

That doesn’t change the doctrine that marriage is for life. And it doesn’t change my experience of my own neighbors, most of whom lived to an old age together and grieved when their spouse died. The only reason that sounds naïve or incredible to you now is that is no longer common. It was common then. People married, and they worked together to make each other happy and to raise a good family. It wasn’t considered something extraordinary. It was the normal thing to do. Husband and wife made constant sacrifices for each other. That’s no longer the case, it seems. Nobody uses the old “Exhortation Before Marriage” any longer that used to be in the old rite of marriage, because nobody believes it any longer. We would have happier couples if they did belive it.

And it is not me that says marriage is for life. That is what Jesus said. Those to whom he said it had some difficulty with the teaching too.

If any of my married neighbors had been routinely abused I would have told them, ‘you have to separate, you cannot live in a dangerous situation.’ That has no bearing on the permanence of the marriage vows. But they were not abused; they were just trying to live what was then a normal married life.