Pope says condoms sometimes permissible to stop AIDS

[Student09]

He has caused pain or the media twisting his words have caused pain? If you read the text of the interview, you will find that the pope has said nothing to the effect of what the media have claimed. I see people here slandering the pope by claiming he has made foolish or thoughtless comments, but that is not true. If you will only read the text of the interview, you will see that it is the media who have been foolish and thoughtless, not the pope. The pope has done nothing wrong and has said nothing wrong.

Yes.

Some of the people here are distorting the pope’s words as badly as the media in order to justify their anger at him. I don’t see how that’s good for the Church.

 

[Student09]

It’s not the Church’s place to weaken their own stance by following the secular way and supporting condom use.

Benedict XVI has not supported condom use in the statements that he actually made. Did you read what he actually said? Here, I’ll post it again: splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2010/11/ginger-factor-the-pope-approves-of-condoms/

But no one here can prevent you from believing whatever you want to believe in order to justify your dissent from the Church.

 

[BlueSprite]

Hey BlueSprite, just a few things which I believe you might have mistaken about the popes remarks. The pope simply says this - that what might be found in some of these people using condoms is a desire to prevent harm to other individuals. The action they do is clearly not conducive to this goal - in fact it is contradictory - but the fact that their is a contradicting force to the evil in a person is for the pope a sign of hope of the possible conversion of that person. HE DID NOT SAY THAT THE USE OF A CONDOM IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF DISEASE WAS RIGHT NOR BENEFICIAL. He simply states that it is the concern of preventing disease, a good, which could be a first step to greater awareness of morality and good and a leaving behind of evil acts.

Hi there! Yeah thanks I do get it…I understand but, well, I look at this way:

Say you have a little boy and he’s really overweight. You love him to death, he’s a great kid, but he’s gotta lose weight as it’s affecting his health. So one day you’re standing in the kitchen and little Johnny goes and opens the freezer and steals a pudding pop. Now he knows he’s not supposed to have them until after dinner…but he steals one and he comes up to you and gives you a hug and say “thanks Mom (or Dad)!” and walks away.

Now as a parent, do you praise Johnny for giving you the hug? Sure you know he’s not a bad kid…he has good in him…but he shouldn’t be eating before dinner, AND he really shouldn’t be eating pudding pops as they’re not good for him! Do you ignore his opening the fridge, eating a pudding pop, and then sauntering off? Or do you tell him he’s a good kid and his intent to do good is recognizable?

I guess my point is that when we want to curb behavior, it’s generally not beneficial to give positive reinforcement to those actions which are enmeshed with the negative behavior. Simply because those words and those beliefs CAN be taken out of context…and mostly likely they will be.

Yes people have good in them, therefore good intentions too. Little Johnny has good intentions. But stealing from the freezer was wrong, and his parents need to let him know that what he did was wrong. And they should expect that he won’t do it again.

If they were to thank Johnny for the hug and also scold him for entering the freezer, chances are Johnny will get confused and not get the message.

Now, no doubt Mom and Dad love Johnny and see all the good in him and what he’s capable of, but in this instance, I don’t think they need to tell Johnny how much they love him…rather, they should try and adjust his behavior and thus assist him in not doing it again. They should *expect *that Johnny won’t do it again.

For in expecting he won’t do it again they’re effectively saying “Hey, I believe in you. I believe you can stop eating pudding pops. I believe you’re capable of not sneaking into the freezer. I think you have the strength to stop.”

This would give Johnny extra faith in himself, to see that his parents view him with these eyes.

But if instead they were to concede and accept that he WILL do it again, that because of this they need to find the good in the act, then in a way, they’ve already been defeated and are causing Johnny a grave disservice because they’re effectively saying:

“Johnny I don’t believe you can or will stop, but I don’t want you to feel bad about yourself so I’m telling you you’re a good kid and I love you anyway.”

Now that’s all well and good to tell Johnny that…but it’s not going to help him from sneaking into the freezer.

See what I mean?

 

[Student09]

Everybody is reading so much into this, and yet the pope said very little. He said there might be “individual cases.” He spoke of one hypothetical person. I don’t see anything indicating that he intended his statements to be turned into a general moral statement.

Please show me where the pope said that all homosexuals or prostitutes should go out and start using condoms immediately, and then rant about it all you want.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’ve now read the Pope’s exact words and I still think they are horrible “in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.”

                                The first step  toward a more human way is REPENTENCE from homosexual acts period, not the use of condoms. 

                                I feel like Pope Benedict has just run the barque of Peter onto an iceberg.

 

[mjs1987]

Pope Benedict is having a George Bush and Barack Obama effect on the church: hes further polarizing the church. Just like American politics are highly polarized by two opposite extremes, the Catholic church soon will be. Benedict made many upset with his encyclical that called for a global government. Now, this comment that was incredibly misguided due to the difficulty translating it. These comments are going to drive more people to Trad Cat groups and to the far out liberal side. It further divides the church. Benedict is turning out to be the Great Divider.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Everybody is reading so much into this, and yet the pope said very little. He said there might be “individual cases.” He spoke of one hypothetical person. I don’t see anything indicating that he intended his statements to be turned into a general moral statement.

Please show me where the pope said that all homosexuals or prostitutes should go out and start using condoms immediately, and then rant about it all you want.

This thread reminds me of the game where one person makes a statement which he whispers to the person sitting next to him. Then that person whispers the “same” statement to the person sitting next to him and so on. And when you get to about twenty people you find out that the statement no longer bears any resemblance to the original statement.

I agree with you. This has been blown out of proportion. And as far as the media goes, is there any time when they really get a story straight?

I wonder how many non-Catholics realize that The DaVinci Code is really a work of fiction? Many of us are starting to believe what the media is saying about this simple statement of opinion made by a human being who just happens to be the Pope. He has the right to make his personal opinion known. He’s not God. He’s a human being just like the rest of us.

I think the best thing for us to do is to get the story straight and be able to tell people the truth when they throw this incident in our faces (and they will). It’s been my experience that when I don’t understand something about Church teaching and become confused and doubt my faith the best thing I can do is to find out what the Church really teaches and then I am so relieved to learn that I had it all wrong.

This is a time when we need to stand strong and present Church teaching to the people who are angry at the Church’s so-called hypocrisy or hopeful that now “Catholics can use condoms - the Pope said so!”. It’s an opportunity to educate people. And I intend to use this opportunity to the best of my ability.

I pray that the Holy Spirit grants all of us the wisdom we need right now.

And I’d like to quote Jimmy Akin: “Gah!!”

 

[Seamus_L]

Well this has become a front page story around the world now, so if the Pope really was misunderstood, he seriously needs to clarify the Church’s position and do some major damage control fast. This is what happens when you start making everything a grey area.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Hi honey. I just want to say how sorry I am that you were violated that way.

I know that I do not have the words to take your pain away, no one does, I just want you to know that I am so sorry that horrific event happened to you.

I know that I can not tell you how to feel, but you shouldn’t feel shame.

IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT!!

It was the pig’s who raped you!

Don’t “try to hold on to onto what dignity I have”. You don’t need to do that. YOU HAVE ALL OF YOUR DIGNITY!!!

That pig didn’t take your dignity.

And it’s OK to cry, it lets your emotions out.

Stay strong honey.

Thank you for your kind words. I’m feeling a bit better now. And stronger. You have helped me so much by your charity. I will hold on to my dignity and I will continue to say that all children are precious. No matter how they come to us they are still gifts from God. It’s sad that many women who have been raped and have become pregnant as a result are not only suffering from the rape but are turned into the killers of their own children with the approval of society. One dead and one maimed. It’s sometimes a very horrible world.

Thank you again and God bless you!! You have helped me so much!!

 

[Adam1986]

Thank you for your kind words. I’m feeling a bit better now. And stronger. You have helped me so much by your charity. I will hold on to my dignity and I will continue to say that all children are precious. No matter how they come to us they are still gifts from God. It’s sad that many women who have been raped and have become pregnant as a result are not only suffering from the rape but are turned into the killers of their own children with the approval of society. One dead and one maimed. It’s sometimes a very horrible world.

Thank you again and God bless you!! You have helped me so much!!

Hi honey you’re welcome.

I’m so glad that you feel stronger now.

I’m so glad that I could have helped you. Reading your comment really has touched my heart. I’m still smiling. I’m not used to getting such awesome responses to my postings here, lol.

And God bless you too!

 

[jerryson]

Do you speak to Saint Augustine on a regular basis? Does he converse with you?

Thank you for conceding.

I never said that rape is a gift. Rape is a horrible crime of violence against an innocent victim. I did not mean that rape is a gift. But a child conceived via rape is a gift. I knew a woman who was raped at age 13. She kept her child and loved her very much. She looked upon her child as a gift from God.

All children are gifts from God. All are precious creations of a loving God. And I stand by my words. If I were raped and became pregnant as a result I would keep my child and love her and would very much thank God for the gift He had sent to me in love. The child is not only the offspring of the rapist. The child is also the offspring of the mother - in this case that would be me.

I have great empathy for rape victims. I have my certificate in Sexual Assault Crisis Victim Counseling. I also have a Master’s degree in Psychology; although the emphasis was on research methods and animal behavior I took several classes in clinical psychology and considered going on to get my Ph.D., Psy.D, or M.D. I was injured instead and now I’m disabled. I learned a lot during the classes I attended in order to receive the certificate and the M.A. Several women who had been sexually assaulted attended one of the certificate classes and spoke to us. Not all had been raped. One had been grabbed. That also had happened to me. Three times and one of those times it was done by my dentist as I sat in the chair. I was also date-raped. I know the shame I felt even though I had done nothing wrong. I remember how I cried so much after being date-raped and how the rapist, a man I trusted, had betrayed me. I was mortified and humiliated beyond belief. And I know that the shame, guilt, fear, rage, dissociation, and all the entire gamut of emotions and reactions that other rape victims go through is a million times greater than the shame and humiliation I felt.

It’s bad enough being a victim, even though my experiences only involved having my breast grabbed and one case of date-rape. It makes it much worse to be made a victim again by you. All you had to do was ask me to clarify my post. I would have been happy to do that. But you didn’t even give me the chance. Other posters here have noted that I meant the child was the gift, not the rape. It was obvious to them. I don’t know why it wasn’t obvious to you.

You have no right to call me the names you called me. You have no right to label me the way you did. You have broken forum rules by being uncharitable and you really went way too far. I’m not going to let you get away with victimizing me. I’ve had quite enough of that. You have been reported to the moderator.

I have nothing further to say to you.

I want to thank everyone who knew I meant that the gift was the child, not the rape. I’m sorry that the thread went off-topic. I didn’t want that to happen.

This is the first time I ever admitted to being date-raped. It happened decades ago and I still feel shame. I’m crying now but I’m trying to hold onto what dignity I have and I want you all to know that I very much appreciate your support of me.

That poster has been reported to the moderator.

I let him make me a victim again. But enough is enough.

And every child is a gift from God. Every single one - even those who are conceived via rape. I stand by what I said.

Thank you all so much!

If you ever decided to engage in Stockholm syndrome and raise the baby yourself and let the rapist win, then by all means that would be your choice and you are free to do that. But if a woman decides to adopt that baby away and is reviled by it, don’t you DARE say she is wrong! Am I the only one around here who speaks English? Let me say this one more time: A gift is voluntary and given with positive intentions. So please forgive me if my use of common sense and logic offends anyone here.

 

[jerryson]

Yes! You have it, Annie39—that is what I was thinking, but I couldn’t come up with an analogy to express it like you did. But it is even worse than this, isn’t it? Because by participating in the sodomy with another, you are jeopardizing your soul for so doing so, and likewise contributing to the sins of another! At least the with ax murdered, the person who’s head he’s chopping off is not sinning also!

Here is the deal: if you are male prostitute who has HIV, then you KNOW you can give it to someone else, because someone gave it to you. Also, it is quite possible to transmit HIV and other STD’s even with the use of a condom, and condoms break and fail like anything else, and many of the condoms using in African are substandard and actually cannot be sold in the USA for this reason (which is a whole other topic). So, therefore, If you’re a prostitute and you’re STILL doing these horrible things despite the fact that you have HIV and you know it, then this is even WORSE! It is not something admirable, and I don’t see at all how this is in any way conducive to bringing people closer to God. The most admirable thing a person must do is listen to the desperate calls God is giving him, and cease immediately his horrible sinning.

Also, let’s say that you’re a male prostitute who doesn’t have HIV, and you use a condom. Well, some here on this board (and at the Vatican?) would call that condemnable in some way, but isn’t it more your own concern for protecting yourself than for protecting others that motivates you? Either way, it doesn’t matter, because it will not grant you any favor before God, as you are both sinning terribly, and in such an obviously illogical and disordered way. The central and absolutely most capital and important issue here is that these people are committing mortal sin! Mortal sin sends people to hell—forever! Oh, they are surrendering their souls for sex, or money, or drugs, or whatever–we mustn’t encourage them in any at all!

While I completely agree with the church’s teachings, I am amazed at people saying “Oh those evil homos, why all they have to do is just stop having homo sex, I mean it’s just so simple!”

It would be nice if us heteros imagined for a second that homosexuality was the proper way and hetero desires were “abnormal”, I bet it would be just so easy to switch to being homosexual in mind and body, wouldn’t it?

 

[LittleSoldier]

If you ever decided to engage in Stockholm syndrome and raise the baby yourself and let the rapist win, then by all means that would be your choice and you are free to do that. But if a woman decides to adopt that baby away and is reviled by it, don’t you DARE say she is wrong! Am I the only one around here who speaks English? Let me say this one more time: A gift is voluntary and given with positive intentions. So please forgive me if my use of common sense and logic offends anyone here.

You can’t let this go, can you? I have never said that it is wrong for a woman who has become pregnant as a result of rape to give her child up for adoption. Many times that is the most loving thing she can do.

But again you insult me with your reference to Stockholm Syndrome. How in the world is keeping my own child alive, safe, and loved wrong? How is this letting the rapist win? Was the rapist’s intention to impregnate me? Probably not. His intention was to gain power over me and to humiliate me - hmmm, kinda like you’re doing right here.

I think everyone who is participating in this thread speaks the English language very well. Your logic is lacking.

I will say it a million times and never stop: a child is a gift from God. I would accept that gift.

Now can we please return to the topic of this thread?

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Benedict XVI has not supported condom use in the statements that he actually made. Did you read what he actually said? Here, I’ll post it again: splendoroftruth.com/curtj…es-of-condoms/

But no one here can prevent you from believing whatever you want to believe in order to justify your dissent from the Church

Well pardon me for trying to make sense of “It’s less sinful for a sinner commiting sin to do something considered sinful because it’ll protect him or their client.”

As for my dissent, I could be dead wrong about what Benedict said and it wouldn’t change my mind. This issue goes to the core of believing in any divine force, and having to live your life with this unjustified faith.

 

[Abyssinia]

It’s too late. No clarification will be sufficient to get the genie back in the bottle now. I am beyond furious that Holy Father was so incredibly careless.


~Liza

I agree with you. There is no excuse for condom use. Abstinence is supposed to be a teaching of the church. And now this gray the area the Pope is ensued is open now to interpretation. What about a couple where one is HIV positive? Should they wear a condom? It has always been taught that condom use is morally wrong, and now the Pope is saying something different???

What the news watcher is hearing, the Pope says it is okay to hear condoms.

If the Vatican does not clarify this soon, and that clarification is not on every news program and newspaper, the Pope’s authority will be undermined.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I agree with you. There is no excuse for condom use. Abstinence is supposed to be a teaching of the church. And now this gray the area the Pope is ensued is open now to interpretation. What about a couple where one is HIV positive? Should they wear a condom? It has always been taught that condom use is morally wrong, and now the Pope is saying something different???

What the news watcher is hearing, the Pope says it is okay to hear condoms.

If the Vatican does not clarify this soon, and that clarification is not on every news program and newspaper, the Pope’s authority will be undermined.

If one of a heterosexual couple is HIV positive, condom use is morally wrong because it prevents the possibility (usually) of a child being conceived. The Pope was not speaking of heterosexual couples.

I love and trust in the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ. I agree with what he said in the interview.

 

[Abyssinia]

This is how it is being seen be people, that is now okay perfectly acceptable for couples, for everyone to use condoms:

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/stephenhough/100049023/pope-benedicts-change-of-mind-is-courageous-but-why-am-i-angry/

And the gay rights campaigners are loving this, they are even saying why not let a couple where one is HIV positive use a condom? It is discriminating against them!

CRAZY! This is the door the Pope has opened.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This is how it is being seen be people, that is now okay perfectly acceptable for couples, for everyone to use condoms:

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/stephenhough/100049023/pope-benedicts-change-of-mind-is-courageous-but-why-am-i-angry/

And the gay rights campaigners are loving this, they are even saying why not let a couple where one is HIV positive use a condom? It is discriminating against them!

CRAZY! This is the door the Pope has opened.

The Pope did not open the door. Many people, including Catholics, do not understand Church teaching. It’s always been that way. If people are saying that now it’s OK for everyone to use condoms, they do not understand Church teaching, nor do they understand what constitutes an ex cathedra statement.

 

[jerryson]

You can’t let this go, can you? I have never said that it is wrong for a woman who has become pregnant as a result of rape to give her child up for adoption. Many times that is the most loving thing she can do.

But again you insult me with your reference to Stockholm Syndrome. How in the world is keeping my own child alive, safe, and loved wrong? How is this letting the rapist win? Was the rapist’s intention to impregnate me? Probably not. His intention was to gain power over me and to humiliate me - hmmm, kinda like you’re doing right here.

I think everyone who is participating in this thread speaks the English language very well. Your logic is lacking.

I will say it a million times and never stop: a child is a gift from God. I would accept that gift.

Now can we please return to the topic of this thread?

Are you aware of what you are implying? If a rape-baby is “a gift from God” then a rapist is doing God’s will. You agree with that?

 

[Abyssinia]

If one of a heterosexual couple is HIV positive, condom use is morally wrong because it prevents the possibility (usually) of a child being conceived. The Pope was not speaking of heterosexual couples.

I love and trust in the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ. I agree with what he said in the interview.

Could you not argue now, that a couple where one is HIV positive, that using a condom would be okay because you are preventing the other from getting HIV, therefore saving that person death?

I know that using a condom is not 100%, but now the gray area has appeared.