Pope says marriage can only be between a man and a woman and ‘we cannot change it’

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Sy_Noe said:
Donald Trump, who has many followers on CAF, said Obergefell vs Hodges did settle marriage.
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Hi Synoe,
While some may, to a greater or lesser degree, appreciate our current president, I would hope that no Catholic considers him to have more authority on the teachings of our faith than our bishops and pope.
Here are the final two paragraphs of the statement by the USCCB (I quoted the other paragraphs in an earlier post):
"
I encourage Catholics to move forward with faith, hope, and love: faith in the unchanging truth about marriage, rooted in the immutable nature of the human person and confirmed by divine revelation; hope that these truths will once again prevail in our society, not only by their logic, but by their great beauty and manifest service to the common good; and love for all our neighbors, even those who hate us or would punish us for our faith and moral convictions.

Lastly, I call upon all people of good will to join us in proclaiming the goodness, truth, and beauty of marriage as rightly understood for millennia, and I ask all in positions of power and authority to respect the God-given freedom to seek, live by, and bear witness to the truth."
usccb.org/news/2015/15-103.cfm

May God bless us all.
Amen.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Yeah. What gets me is pope Francis has been late to the party and losing these battles longer than people realize. His time as Cardinal in Argentina was marked by a huge battle on gay marriage with the president of Argentina in which he fought quite valiantly for the Catholic position and was soundly rejected politically. From this initial foray into the culture wars we get his strongest defense. He pointed out that same sex adoption was a form of child abuse. Now, with all the world looking for direction we seem to get these statements after or during major votes by countries legalizing SS"M". As if our position is a commentary or afterthought. It seems to me to be leading from behind. It would be nice to get out in front of this. Italy, Ireland, USA… historically very religious countries. All defeats.

Like I said, the debate is over and this is one area in which the Church should separate herself from the secular.

Wait… I haven’t written my disclaimer about how we live the sinner not the sin, God is love… yadda yadds yadda.
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I’d say our position on marriage was defeated when no-fault divorce was made legal, but I am too young to remember that fight. Nobody talks about it anymore despite the grave damage it does to families with children. Way worse than gay unions.
 
Luke6_37 said:
I’d say our position on marriage was defeated when no-fault divorce was made legal, but I am too young to remember that fight. Nobody talks about it anymore despite the grave damage it does to families with children. Way worse than gay unions.
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Yes. I think one is a fruit of the other. And now we debate about communion for that…
 
Luke6_37 said:
I’d say our position on marriage was defeated when no-fault divorce was made legal, but I am too young to remember that fight. Nobody talks about it anymore despite the grave damage it does to families with children. Way worse than gay unions.
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God’s truth about marriage will never be defeated, but it will not always be adhered to. It applies both to divorce and to homosexual unions. As Catholics, we are called to adhere to the teachings of His holy church.
 
Luke6_37 said:
Spoken like a good Catholic. However, the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide says that you can get away with quite a bit as long as you acknowledge you sinfulness and put your faith in Christ…

Justification, in Christian theology, is God’s act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time declaring a sinner righteous through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. … In Lutheranism and Calvinism, righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner’s account through faith alone, without works.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(theology

Another reason to be cautious about buying into the Protestant narrative too quickly - especially in the political realm.
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That’s a gross misunderstanding of Sola Fide.
It definitely does not mean sin all you want. That would cheapen Grace, which is something mentioned a lot in many circles.
The sinner is regenerated to do good works because of Faith. The sinner knows God and seeks to serve Him and delights in obeying His commandments to the point where it’s like saying ‘I love my job so much it doesn’t seem like a job’.
If your misunderstanding were true, the LCMS and Presbyterian Church in America would be dens of debauchery but strangely they’re not.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Donald Trump, who has many followers on CAF, said Obergefell vs Hodges did settle marriage.

In an extensive interview on CBS, Trump sought to ease the anxieties of LGBTQ Americans that a new conservative Supreme Court majority might overturn the decision legalizing same-sex marriage.

Ducking a question about his personal view on the issue, which he dismissed as “irrelevant,” Trump asserted, bluntly, “it’s done.”

These cases have gone to the Supreme Court. They’ve been settled. And I’m — I’m fine with that,” he said.

politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-same-sex-marriage-231310
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The plantiff in the case himself, Jim Obergefell, didn’t seem entirely convinced regarding Donald Trump’s comments that it was settled, pointing to for example that Trump would nominate judges that are opposed to same-sex marriage: theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/15/same-sex-marriage-plaintiff-jim-obergefell-doubts-trump-claim-its-settled-law

I don’t see why it is not entirely possible that same-sex marriage legalisation could be overturned one day in the United States. Supreme Court rulings have been overturned before and they can be overturned again. Justices on the court change over time and who knows what case could potentially be coming to the court in the near or distant future to possibly challenge same-sex marriage.
 
_Abyssinia said:
The plantiff in the case himself, Jim Obergefell, didn’t seem entirely convinced regarding Donald Trump’s comments that it was settled, pointing to for example that Trump would nominate judges that are opposed to same-sex marriage: theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/15/same-sex-marriage-plaintiff-jim-obergefell-doubts-trump-claim-its-settled-law

I don’t see why it is not entirely possible that same-sex marriage legalisation could be overturned one day in the United States. Supreme Court rulings have been overturned before and they can be overturned again. Justices on the court change over time and who knows what case could potentially be coming to the court in the near or distant future to possibly challenge same-sex marriage.
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Well I’m not convinced of much of anything Donald Trump says when it comes to policy. I’m not a supporter of the guy though. Nor did I vote for him. I did think it was crazy for him to say though that abortion was not settled but marriage is.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
No. The timing is almost comical. This debate has been lost. That the Church speaks about it now instead of then is so frustrating.
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It’s quite relevant for Australia atm.

Australia has 2 things happening ATM, same sex marriage vote and Cardinal Pell’s trial.
 
**Pope says marriage can only be between a man and a woman **

👍 God and the bible say the same thing. Funny how that works.😉
 
Luke6_37 said:
I’d say our position on marriage was defeated when no-fault divorce was made legal, but I am too young to remember that fight. Nobody talks about it anymore despite the grave damage it does to families with children. Way worse than gay unions.
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False comparison. I was there for No-Fault Divorce. It was created out of thin air. In the 1980s, I opened the Classifieds section of the newspaper and saw ads like this: “No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE.”

It seems a number of opportunists were given another way to make money. And the kids being traumatized? Nobody cared - except for the kids.

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/12/time-to-challenge-no-fault-divorce-1

Ed
 
Luke6_37 said:
I’d say our position on marriage was defeated when no-fault divorce was made legal, but I am too young to remember that fight. Nobody talks about it anymore despite the grave damage it does to families with children. Way worse than gay unions.
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Here, here!

When my son was only two, his father told me he wanted a divorce.

That was the end of our marriage – I had no legal recourse whatsoever. I might have been able to delay the divorce decree by a month or two had I tried, but the man wanted out, and the marriage was over.

Our son was only two years old…

And even though his father and I have done our parts to make things easier for him (living only a few miles apart, spending all holidays and birthdays together, having at least one family meal a week with all three of us, frequent family outings…), our son has indeed suffered immensely by our divorce.

Divorces based on “I’m just not fulfilled in this” are simply evil.
 
I don’t think Pope Francis’ comments are too late.

Yes, many countries have legalized same-sex “marriage.”

But activists are not done yet. Support gay marriage or suffer the consequences.

Small business owners are already feeling this, especially those in the wedding industry.

And the Church is definitely in the sights of activists, because we Catholics won’t change our teachings as some Christian denominations have.

So I think our Holy Father’s words are timed well enough.
 
Gertabelle said:
I don’t think Pope Francis’ comments are too late.

Yes, many countries have legalized same-sex “marriage.”

But activists are not done yet. Support gay marriage or suffer the consequences.

Small business owners are already feeling this, especially those in the wedding industry.

And the Church is definitely in the sights of activists, because we Catholics won’t change our teachings as some Christian denominations have.

So I think our Holy Father’s words are timed well enough.
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I would bet those words are meant for Australia, first and foremost.

We might be the country to defeat SSM. . If it be God’s Will
 
ATraveller said:
That’s a gross misunderstanding of Sola Fide.
It definitely does not mean sin all you want. That would cheapen Grace, which is something mentioned a lot in many circles.
The sinner is regenerated to do good works because of Faith. The sinner knows God and seeks to serve Him and delights in obeying His commandments to the point where it’s like saying ‘I love my job so much it doesn’t seem like a job’.
If your misunderstanding were true, the LCMS and Presbyterian Church in America would be dens of debauchery but strangely they’re not.
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How then do they deal with the fact of recurring sin? I recall Jim & Tammy Baker crying a lot. How much bad behavior can one rationalize if you have no fear that it will jeopardize your salvation? How many sins of omission might one commit if you don’t belive works perfect the soul?

There are certainly loads of good Protestands & Evangelicals out there, but Sola Fide is heretical for a reason. Its not the Way to salvation.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
I would bet those words are meant for Australia, first and foremost.

We might be the country to defeat SSM. . If it be God’s Will
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I am sure that SSM is not part of God’s perfect will. But if we humans refuse to cooperate with His grace, He may very well allow SSM in Australia as well.

But, He has promised us that “in all things God works for the good of those who love Him.”

❤️
 
Luke6_37 said:
How then do they deal with the fact of recurring sin? I recall Jim & Tammy Baker crying a lot. How much bad behavior can one rationalize if you have no fear that it will jeopardize your salvation? How many sins of omission might one commit if you don’t belive works perfect the soul?

There are certainly loads of good Protestands & Evangelicals out there, but Sola Fide is heretical for a reason. Its not the Way to salvation.
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Constant renewing of one’s mind for recurring sin. A Christian will fight sin and persevere until the end. True Christians wouldn’t rationalize sin but fight it tooth and nail. Those who don’t were never true Christians. Jesus did say not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom because they didn’t follow God’s ways. True Faith bears fruit.
This difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is like a chicken or egg issue in my opinion.
 
ATraveller said:
Constant renewing of one’s mind for recurring sin. A Christian will fight sin and persevere until the end. True Christians wouldn’t rationalize sin but fight it tooth and nail. Those who don’t were never true Christians. Jesus did say not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom because they didn’t follow God’s ways. True Faith bears fruit.

This difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is like a chicken or egg issue in my opinion.
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The chicken & egg thing depends on whether a Protestant is a synergist or a monergist. James White says that if you are a synergist, you are already paddling in the Tiber and may as well go over to the side of Rome.

Monergism is not Catholic, but it is very loud in our current national discourse. Many Catholics aren’t even aware that it exists and are mislead or confused by those who preach this distortion of the Gospel. It is easy to how Monergism could lead to a lack of empathy or compassion for the marginalized members of society. This is what confuses many liberals who see it as inconsistent with the teaching of Jesus, which it is.
 
The Church should “divorce” herself from government authority on one of her sacraments altogether. The definitions are now fundamentally different.
 
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