Pope Says There is Only One True Church

[mtr01]

Catholics believe that it is first, they are equals, but in the case of disagreement, the “first among equals” is the one who must be obeyed. Lots of threads on this, along with the quotes from the ECF in the Eastern forum

That sounds a great deal similar to how Pope St. Gregory the Great put it (and I posted previously in this thread):

…as to his saying that he is subject to the Apostolic See, if any fault is found in bishops, I know not what bishop is not subject to it. But when no fault requires it to be otherwise, all according to the principle of humility are equal.

Registrum Epistolarum IX, 59

 

[Gertabelle]

I just found this thread and have no time to read through all the posts to see where we are currently.

I just wanted to say that as I was going to lunch with three acquaintances back in July, one of them, upon finding out that I was a Catholic, went off on me telling me that my church was horrible and how dare the pope say the Catholic Church is the only way to God, and on and on. He then went on to say that’s why he and his wife participate in a church that unites everyone instead of separating them. His wife remained silent, and the other man said not much about the Catholic thing.

This was the first time since my return to the Church last summer that I was in the “hot seat” for being Catholic. I did not remain silent but pointed out that the Church has always believed that. The other man then changed the subject and – perhaps to try and offend me – started talking about all his sexual exploits, both past and the ones he had planned for the future. (please pray for this man!)

Again, God gave me the grace not to remain silent, but to share my own past and future choices about chastity and (being single) about choosing celibacy. God’s words (through my mouth) must have been good because the other man become quiet, flustered, and uncomfortable looking as I spoke with joy and simplicity about my choices.

My point is this. Speaking the truth, however uncomfortable it makes people, opens up doors for sharing the gospel. These three people got to experience Christianity that day not from the point of view of their own judgments and arguments, but from a Catholic woman who, through God’s grace, loves the Church and finds a rich and powerful life in its teachings.

Thank you, Vatican people (and Pope Benedict) for speaking the truth again. And thanks be to God for the grace of His strength and courage in sharing His love with my companions.

Gert

 

[fullofzeal]

First of all I am WELL aware of what Papal infallability is and is not. I in NO way shape or form believe that Roman Catholics believe that everything the Pope says is infallible. Have not thought that since my first religion course taught by a Catholic Priest in college. Heck I graduated through an RCC college. I still believe that the Pope does NOT have infallibility. Any doctrines (dogma) that are at variance with the 7 Ecumenical Councils cannot be infallible statements. If the Pope says they are then he is wrong.

Second, I am not saying these innovations are horrible and so on. In many cases they are no different than the many doctrines formulated by Protestant Theologians. It is simply that the fullness of faith (the apostolic faith) is maintained in the Orthodox Church from which the Latin church went into schism. It is sad and we need to pray for unity again.

Lastly, since you bring up the issue of being “biblical”, Purgatory is NOT biblical. Don’t quote from 1 Corinthians because that verse has absolutely nothing to do with Purgatory.

I respect your right to believe the Pope can make infallible declarations and to believe the evolving and innovative doctrines as the Latin Rite creates them. It would be expected for you to have fidelity to your church. That is OKAY. We live in a pluralistic society and a pluralistic world. I would no more tell you that you cannot hold these beliefs than I would a 7th Day Adventist or Baptist their doctrines.

Rev North

when the orthodox and cath’s unite it will be under one head(pope) and all the* invented* doctrine’s will be believed in harmony…what church will you join then? it may just happen, you know. sooner than you think. or maybe not, anyway *your *opinions mean nothing. i left my opinions outside and came in.FREEEEDOM cannot be had outside obedience. i choose to follow the one true church that claims to be the one true church, so banter about all you want. you have eyes that do not see, and ears that do not hear.

we love you!!
peace and come home.

 

[fullofzeal]

mr. north, have you read newman’s apologia pro vita sua?

 

[AlegreFe]

You believe that only the Catholic church has the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ.

YES :yup: Absolutely! That is the TRUTH! Amen! Alleluia!
Grace Seeker:

Funny, because I know others that believe they also have it. But they don’t say that they are the only ones to have Christ’s real presence.

If they do believe in the Real Presence then I’m very happy for them. But then I’m sad for them because they really DON’T have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. No Protestant denomination has the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Why? Because there are no validly ordained Priests. No Ordained Priest in Apostolic Succession, no Eucharist. Sorry, but it’s true.
Grace Seeker:

Here is what I believe:
I believe that were (did you mean to say “where?”) the Spirit of the Lord is there is the one true Church, apostolic and universal.

I agree with you completely!
Grace Seeker:

I believe that where two or three are gathered in Christ’s name, there he is in the midst of them.

:yup: I believe the same thing.
Grace Seeker:

I believe that the spiritual world is no less a real world than the physical world, so that if Christ is spiritually present then he is really present.

Christ makes Himself Spiritually present in all protestant denominations. Even the Pope says that. No argument there.
Both the spiritual and the physical are very real. But as far as the physical world verses the spiritual world they are very different. Since we are physical beings, God wanted to be with us (Emmanuel) physically with His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. That is where Jesus comes to us as the Holy Eucharist. We partake in His Body and Blood as Jesus offers Himself to us as we are His Bride. We actually have a “physical” relationship with Jesus Christ which helps us a great deal with the spiritual relationship that we should all have with Christ. But just because many Christians have a spiritual relationship with Christ does not mean they should ignore what Jesus commanded of us when He said “take and eat…this is my Body … take drink, this is the Blood of the new covenant…” We actually have to EAT His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity in order that we have LIFE in us.
Grace Seeker:

I believe that it is possible to make an idol out of even the things that are intended to help us in our worship of God.

This is true and I agree with you. But there is no way that a devout Catholic person can ever see the Eucharist as an “idol” because it’s the “real thing.” It’s really Jesus. There are some Catholics that don’t believe in the real presence but I don’t see those Catholics making an idol out of the Eucharist. They would see it just as many (not all) protestants see it, as merely spiritually and metaphorically.

Continued in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

cont…
Grace Seeker:

And while I’m not going to argue against your concept of the REAL PRESENCE, what I would say is that if you are hung up on making too big a deal out of this concept so that it divides you from others who are also in Christ, then you have taken the things that God gave to us in order to bless us and have perverted them for other purposes.

First of all, Jesus IS a BIG DEAL! Second, it’s not a “concept” it’s a FACT! :yup: OR should I say, Jesus is not a concept, He’s a FACT! And the FACT is that Jesus is actually present with us and gives Himself to us as Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity. And lastly, I don’t divide us from others. Protestants are the ones that are divided among thousands of denominations.
We are ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC Church! :yup:
Grace Seeker:

When we miss the fact that Christ is really present and with us in the midst of our brothers and sisters

I agree that Christ is spiritually “in the midst of our brothers and sisters.”
Grace Seeker:

…because we are so insistent on the REAL PRESENCE that we miss Christ’s actual presence,

But the Eucharist IS Christ’s ACTUAL Presence among us.
Grace Seeker:

then something is wrong – maybe not with our theology, but with its practice.

The only thing that I see wrong here is for a protestant denomination to think they have the real presence. There is nothing wrong with a Protestant BELIEVING in the Real Presence, only in thinking that they actually HAVE the Real Presence.

 

[AlegreFe]

One can never make too big a deal out of Our Lord being truly and substantially present in the Eucharist. No Catholic denies that Christ is among us in a spiritual way. However, the Eucharist is the fullness of Christ’s presence, and it is this fullness that we Catholics want to share with our non-Catholic brethren. Let’s face it, Our Lord did say
Quote:
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

Abiding in Christ and having Him abide in us is a special fulfillment of the new covenant, and is something we Catholics take very seriously.

Absolutely! VERY seriously!

 

[AlegreFe]

No…it is the Orthodox Church. You developed many new doctrines such as purgatory, Papal infallibility and on and on. The “schismatic” Protestants are thanks to the Latin Rite Schism. In fact as you criticize Protestants you too have a number of schisms within the Latin Rite Church.

Check out the 7 Ecumenical Councils and see how many of the Latin Rite doctrines are innovations from the apostolic church. Only Orthodoxy has maintained fidelity to the apostolic faith.

Please note that I am not condenming you or saying you are going to hell, etc but you do not have too much room to criticize what could be considered your fellow Protestants. Maybe you could drop Purgatory, Papal infallibility and so on and return to the fullness of the faith in Christ’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Orthodoxy has preserved this through the centuries (Thanks Be to God)

Rev North

From where do you get your information? http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Huh.gif This is so twisted and backwards. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Wacko.gif The devil loves to twist and turn things around and make people believe the opposite of what they should believe. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that you are “the devil” so please don’t twist my words around. It’s just so backwards what you’re saying here.

 

[East_Anglican]

Per your*** personal ***interperation of Scripture. Fortunatley in our Church we dont have to depend on trying to reconsile individual interperations of Scripture-we have The Church to guide us.

Fortunately we have The Holy Spirit to guide us just like Jesus said “The Spirit will guide you into all truth.”

The Church the light of the world not the light of its self.

 

[mtr01]

Fortunately we have The Holy Spirit to guide us just like Jesus said “The Spirit will guide you into all truth.”

The Church the light of the world not the light of its self.

Does the Holy Spirit only guide Anglicans into “all truth”, or does it also guide Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. etc. etc…

 

[East_Anglican]

Does the Holy Spirit only guide Anglicans into “all truth”, or does it also guide Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists, etc. etc. etc…

He guides us all into all truth.

 

[estesbob]

He guides us all into all truth.

Requirements of a different versions of the truth among those who have rejected the Catholic Church?

 

[East_Anglican]

This looks like schism and Christ is not devided.

 

[Sheeniac]

In all seriousness and without attempts at humorous hyperbole…yes. I have been doing a fair amount of reading and sole searching. I had developed dis satisfaction with the liberal bent of my denomination and began research.

Rev North

Rev., I am a Catholic revert, formerly a rabid atheist. I looked at both the RC and the Orthdox Churches while on the road back. The deciding factor for me was that the Orthodox Church held that divorce is ok. I am divorced, and the more I looked into it, I realized that this came about due to political pressure. This meant the Church of Rome was not buckling to the world. While I was VERY concerned about the possibility of remarriage, I decided that I couldn’t be self-centered and go where things would be easier for me.

The split in the 11th century was that - a split over a theological difference. The Papacy still exists, and doctrine has been refined, not changed, IMO, over time. The Orthodox have no equivalent of the Papacy, which I believe to be crucial.

As to your previous comments about annulments, I wonder how much you really understand. We seriously differ on this point.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Purgatory is not a new doctrine. It is defined like all other basic Catholic beliefs like Transtantiation, Immaculate Conception, etc. It’s a part of the deposit of faith. Tell me then Rev, if the Orthodox do not acknowledge of purgatory, then why bother pray to the dead.

We Catholics pray for the remission of souls who died in venial sin. That is of course is another topic.

Not so, the Orthodoxy lacks the Papacy, or Primacy of Peter. It does indeed have apostolic faith but the Orthodox rejection of the Papacy only make it 99% Truth.

The problem with the E. Orthodox is that its Patriarchs in most cases do not recognized the authority of other E. Orthodox authority. Before the Eastern Orthodox itself split into nation or regional authority of the local Patriarchs. There was a time when all Eastern Orthodoxy was united by the Patriarch of Constantinope. Today, E. Orthodoxy doesn’t have that. Indeed, you have Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc.

Only the Catholic Church have it all. I’m being honest here. I do admit that in due time like Eastern Orthodox Churches will be united with Rome like the other 22 Eastern Byzantine Churches. It will happen.

Dropping purgatory, Papal Infallibility and other doctrines cannot be drop. They are part of the Deposit of faith. Those doctrines cannot be compromise or taken out. Indeed, Eastern Orthodoxy maintains Apostolic and valid ordination, but it lacks the authority of the Pope.

Believe me, before the East-West Schism, we have Pope dating to Peter himself as well as the Apostles. I don’t think E. Orthodox has preserve this through the centuries, if it did, she would recognize the Pope’s authority.

What a shame that this discussion regarding the Orthodox church isnt being conducted on the Eastern Christianity forum and thereby getting a better cross section of opinions east and west. Here you will be getting a very lopsided RC opinion without the benefit of Eastern Orthodox (name removed by moderator)ut. IMHO

 

[Mickey]

The deciding factor for me was that the Orthodox Church held that divorce is ok. I am divorced, and the more I looked into it, I realized that this came about due to political pressure. This meant the Church of Rome was not buckling to the world. While I was VERY concerned about the possibility of remarriage, I decided that I couldn’t be self-centered and go where things would be easier for me.

Interesting perspective. In the Orthodox Church, you can be divorced but one time, for valid reasons by economia. Do you know how easy it is to get an annulment these days?

The split in the 11th century was that - a split over a theological difference. The Papacy still exists, and doctrine has been refined, not changed, IMO, over time.

The papacy today does not resemble the papacy of the early Church–and the new doctrines would be better defined as innovation when comparing to the early Church.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

YES :yup: Absolutely! That is the TRUTH! Amen! Alleluia!

If they do believe in the Real Presence then I’m very happy for them. But then I’m sad for them because they really DON’T have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. No Protestant denomination has the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Why? Because there are no validly ordained Priests. No Ordained Priest in Apostolic Succession, no Eucharist. Sorry, but it’s true.

I agree with you completely!

:yup: I believe the same thing.

Christ makes Himself Spiritually present in all protestant denominations. Even the Pope says that. No argument there.
Both the spiritual and the physical are very real. But as far as the physical world verses the spiritual world they are very different. Since we are physical beings, God wanted to be with us (Emmanuel) physically with His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. That is where Jesus comes to us as the Holy Eucharist. We partake in His Body and Blood as Jesus offers Himself to us as we are His Bride. We actually have a “physical” relationship with Jesus Christ which helps us a great deal with the spiritual relationship that we should all have with Christ. But just because many Christians have a spiritual relationship with Christ does not mean they should ignore what Jesus commanded of us when He said “take and eat…this is my Body … take drink, this is the Blood of the new covenant…” We actually have to EAT His Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity in order that we have LIFE in us.

This is true and I agree with you. But there is no way that a devout Catholic person can ever see the Eucharist as an “idol” because it’s the “real thing.” It’s really Jesus. There are some Catholics that don’t believe in the real presence but I don’t see those Catholics making an idol out of the Eucharist. They would see it just as many (not all) protestants see it, as merely spiritually and metaphorically.

Continued in next post…

So, with true respect for you, the Pope, and 2 millenia of history, it would be better for Catholics to speak of the PHYSICAL PRESENCE than the REAL PRESENCE, for as you and the Pope of concurred, Christ is actually present in spirit even in protestant bodies, and since that means that Christ is really present, because the spiritual world is just as real as the physical world. Then it is true and correct to say that others outside of the Catholic church can experience the real presence of Christ. What you would deny is that we experience the physical presence of his body in the Eucharist, but see, even in what you would consider an invalide communion Christ can still be truly (i.e. really) present.

I don’t suppose my critique is going to change years of tradition and the wording that you are used to. It’s just too bad they you all didn’t check with me first before using such sloppy language.

 

[mtr01]

What a shame that this discussion regarding the Orthodox church isnt being conducted on the Eastern Christianity forum and thereby getting a better cross section of opinions east and west. Here you will be getting a very lopsided RC opinion without the benefit of Eastern Orthodox (name removed by moderator)ut. IMHO

It was a reaction to Rev Dr. North continually posting here that Catholics were wrong and the Orthodox Church was the one true church. As you can imagine, the Catholics who frequent this forum were bound to respond.

 

[bilboj1]

Indeed there is only one true universal (Catholic) Church. The Church of Christ at Rome is the only true remaining Church from the first century, who Paul addressed his letter to the Romans. It was so important that Peter and Paul both were martyred there and the first Gospel, Mark, was written there and on Peter’s orders read in all the Christian Churches of the time. The falling away that the protestants are always attributing to the Roman Church is actually them that have fallen away and become divided and weak in faith and obedience to the Lord, Right on Holy Father

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Indeed there is only one true universal (Catholic) Church. The Church of Christ at Rome is the only true remaining Church from the first century, who Paul addressed his letter to the Romans. It was so important that Peter and Paul both were martyred there and the first Gospel, Mark, was written there and on Peter’s orders read in all the Christian Churches of the time. The falling away that the protestants are always attributing to the Roman Church is actually them that have fallen away and become divided and weak in faith and obedience to the Lord, Right on Holy Father

George Orwell strikes again.