Pope Says There is Only One True Church

[Grace_Seeker]

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church starting at paragraph 946 when it talks about the Communion of Saints for the definition of what are Saints and saints.
Everybody in Heaven is a Saint. The canonization process is just the Church proclaiming that they are in Heaven.

Thank-you for that definitive statement.

Are not those same people also saints on earth before they get to heaven? Does the Catholic church today mean something different by the term “saint” than did St. Paul when he wrote his letters to the churches and called the living people who received them “saints”?

 

[sterryfamily]

Thank-you for that definitive statement.

Are not those same people also saints on earth before they get to heaven? Does the Catholic church today mean something different by the term “saint” than did St. Paul when he wrote his letters to the churches and called the living people who received them “saints”?

Essentially, the term saint means one who lives in the grace of God. So, yes, there are saints on earth as well as in heaven. The difference is, those saints in heaven are perfected and can no longer separate themselves from God’s grace through mortal sin.

 

[sterryfamily]

And there are different uses of the term “saint”. Obviously, when the Church canonizes one, it is meant that they are a perfected saint in heaven. They have graduated to the fullness of life.

 

[sadie2723]

So I have to ask, what does any of this saint business have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[estesbob]

Thank-you for that definitive statement.

Are not those same people also saints on earth before they get to heaven? Does the Catholic church today mean something different by the term “saint” than did St. Paul when he wrote his letters to the churches and called the living people who received them “saints”?

Not per the definition the Church uses which applies only to those in heaven.

Of course this is just another example of the limitations of Sola Scripture. When my Aunt(A sister of Charity) was alive I often refereed to her as a Saint. When used for a living person it means you think they are very Holy person. I suspect that this is the definition Paul was using. I can state this with Certainty because, not being limited by Sola Scriptura , I can look at how the word “Saint” has been used in the last 2,000 years and note that it is used as a compliment for those who are living and as a description for those who are in heaven.

 

[sterryfamily]

So I have to ask, what does any of this saint business have to do with the topic of this thread?

Not much. And so…we now return you to your regularly scheduled program…

 

[guanophore]

the Church is the result of Christ’s redemptive work, not the means of it

Or, more likely, both!

I understand that Catholics believe that even non-Catholic Christians, even if only separated brethern, are still indeed genuinely Christian. Do Catholics believe that non-Catholic Christians are also “saints” in the sense that Paul uses the term in his letters?

(For that matter, maybe I should have asked if Catholics understand themselves to be “saints”, not just those that are so labelled like St. So-and-So?)

This is a good question. It is hard not to see someone like Ghandi that way.

The Catholic Church believes that we are all called to be saints, but members generally find it arrogant to presume that we have already arrived at the point to which we are travelling. Most Catholics do not know the origin of the word “saint” in scripture, and I don’t believe apply it to themselves in the generic sense that it is used.

 

[Catherine_S]

Kleenex is a brand name, just like the term Catholic church is. What is not a brand name is the term “church”. The Church belongs to Jesus Christ, and as long as the Catholic church belongs to Jesus Christ then it too belongs to Jesus. When it sees itself as being able to say who is and who is not a brother of Christ, then it assumes too much authority for itself.

Puffs and Scott make them too. And Lutherans, Methodists, Orthodox, and Anglicans are all churches as well and their members are all part of the Church, whether they are recognized by the Catholic church or not is inconseqential, for they are recognized by Christ, and he is the only authority that counts.

It is not a question of if Christ “recognises” them - it is weather He “condones” all these different teachings and groups within His Church.
Does the Holy Spirit teach conflicting truths? If not, how is one to know which teachings are the truth? Did Jesus Christ leave His Church without a means to know these things?

Protestantism is much like the thinking in Islam regarding the Koran. There are many many groups…all believe in God and** all believe** that they are recognized by Him.
.
But this is very blinded thinking indeed!
.
Although some Muslims in history have tried to “spiritualize” the Quran’s declarations regarding violence, **there is always a countervailing fundamentalist push **to return to the sources of Islam and **take them literally. **

Indeed, this reaction is what characterizes the Wahhabite movement that dominates Saudia Arabia and inspired Osama bin Laden’s ideology. Philosopher Roger Scruton notes that in the Wahhabite view, "whoever can read **the Quran can judge for himself in matters of doctrine." **

This attitude, **
which is tantamount to an Islamic version of sola scriptura,**
is likely to prove as durable in Muslim circles as** it has been in Protestant Fundamentalist circles.**
As long as that is the case,
there will be fresh waves of Muslim “martyrs” willing to take the Quran’s statements on killing literally, apply them to today, and then hurl themselves into combat with whomever they perceive as “the Great Satan.”
catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
.
If Christ left no earthly authority than there is no voice to say “this is correct teaching” or “this is not correct teaching”!
All do and believe as they please because each one is his or her own absolute authority.
Sin begets sin and punishment follows…always!
God has a way of taking one’s own way of thinking and holding that thinking up before them so that they might see the error of their way.
Sad indeed!
.

 

[savedsinner]

Jesus protested against the teaching of the Pharisees.

Are you sure that Jesus protested against the teachings of the Pharisees, or how they practiced their faith?

Matthew 23:1-3
Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

 

[believers]

Are you sure that Jesus protested against the teachings of the Pharisees, or how they practiced their faith?

Matthew 23:1-3
Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Yep… I’m sure.

 

[sadie2723]

Yep… I’m sure.

You might want to read that quote again. You see, Jesus was teaching that they did not practice what they were teaching. It was their practice that he said not to follow…but their teaching was to be followed.

 

[believers]

You might want to read that quote again. You see, Jesus was teaching that they did not practice what they were teaching. It was their practice that he said not to follow…but their teaching was to be followed.

Can’t be… Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi, but of Judah. The time of the Levitical priesthood was over.

 

[estesbob]

Can’t be… Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi, but of Judah. The time of the Levitical priesthood was over.

I am curious since you seem upset that the Pope reiterate that the Catholic Church BUT that those who do not belong to it can be saved. Do you blelieve all Jews are going to hell?

 

[sadie2723]

Can’t be… Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi, but of Judah. The time of the Levitical priesthood was over.

Still, the teaching of the tribe was still in accordance with the order of Malchezadek (which I am sure that I spelled wrong). Jesus adhered to that teaching and references it in his teaching. What he was objecting to, and I have looked at a number of commentaries both Protestant and Catholic on the subject, was that the teachers were not living what they were teaching. Thus, Jesus says that their teaching was good, it was their practice that was bad. This is backed up later in Matthew when Jesus goes on the rant about all the people who are hypocrites. As I like to refer to it, the “Woe to you…” section of Matthew.

Cheers.

 

[believers]

I am curious since you seem upset that the Pope reiterate that the Catholic Church BUT that those who do not belong to it can be saved. Do you blelieve all Jews are going to hell?

I’m not upset. Actually, I could care less what the Pope has to say. I mean no offense but that’s the truth.

This is what Jesus said to the Jews… “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

 

[believers]

Still, the teaching of the tribe was still in accordance with the order of Malchezadek (which I am sure that I spelled wrong). Jesus adhered to that teaching and references it in his teaching. What he was objecting to, and I have looked at a number of commentaries both Protestant and Catholic on the subject, was that the teachers were not living what they were teaching. Thus, Jesus says that their teaching was good, it was their practice that was bad. This is backed up later in Matthew when Jesus goes on the rant about all the people who are hypocrites. As I like to refer to it, the “Woe to you…” section of Matthew.

Cheers.

The Law of Moses under the Levitical priesthood was to change with the coming of the High Priest, Jesus. Read Hebrews.

 

[estesbob]

I’m not upset. Actually, I could care less what the Pope has to say. I mean no offense but that’s the truth.

You sure have spent a lot of time disputing a man you could not care less about.

And your personal interperation of that verse is all Jews are going to hell, correct?

 

[guanophore]

Yep… I’m sure.

It sounds like you have not made a distinction between Sacred Traditions, and the traditions of men. One has it’s source in the Divine, the other has it’s source in the ego of persons.

How do you think it serves the ego of a person to recognize the Apostolic Succession?

 

[guanophore]

Can’t be… Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi, but of Judah. The time of the Levitical priesthood was over.

Are you saying “it can’t be” about Jesus instructing the people to do as the Pharisees taught, but don’ t follow their example? Are you saying you do not find that in your Bible???

On what grounds did you determine that “the Levitical Priesthood was over”???

 

[Man]

Do not become pompous because you are Catholic! Instead, regard protecting the teachings of the Church as a duty. Be prepared to admit that the Church (community) has not always done as it should have and that not every person that carries its blessing is holy. (Has “shadows” needs work.)