Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

[JimmyG88]

Now, I note, each year in the UK, around 3,000 persons are killed or seriously injured in drink driving auto accidents: drinkdrivingfacts.com/drinkdriving/drink_driving_facts.aspx

Per all of these mass shootings, in 30 years, that number is around 580 I understand, tragic in itself.

Do you think we should be more concerned in trying to get alcohol made illegal?

I’d prefer cars to be illegal actually

 

[JimmyG88]

Merrie Olde England (i.e., its Catholic culture and economic system–the English Monastery system) began to fade in 1536 when Henry began seizing monasteries, convents and priories; confiscating endowments of universities, chantries, guilds and hospitals. Tenant farmers were displaced, resulting in chaos and, for the first time in English history, wandering paupers and mass poverty.

By 1574, in accord with Protestant law, beggars were branded with hot irons, given iron collars and forced into slavery for two years. That, Jimmy, my lad, is the Merrie England you refer to.

Well I didn’t refer to it. I referred to Charles II

 

[JimmyG88]

You think the pope is scapegoating arms manufacturers and investors for the sins of governments and voters?

No. Just their own sins

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU View Post
Merrie Olde England (i.e., its Catholic culture and economic system–the English Monastery system) began to fade in 1536 when Henry began seizing monasteries, convents and priories; confiscating endowments of universities, chantries, guilds and hospitals. Tenant farmers were displaced, resulting in chaos and, for the first time in English history, wandering paupers and mass poverty.

By 1574, in accord with Protestant law, beggars were branded with hot irons, given iron collars and forced into slavery for two years. That, Jimmy, my lad, is the Merrie England you refer to.

Well I didn’t refer to [Merrie England]. I referred to Charles II

Here are your words: “I think ‘Merrie England’ was an expression used for the reign of Charles II.” (My bold).

Catholic Merrie Olde England is the polar opposite of the horrors that followed and became Merrie England.

 

[KSU]

Horse feathers. See 1350 to 1536, and use a Catholic source.

 

[JimmyG88]

Merrie Olde England (i.e., its Catholic culture and economic system–the English Monastery system) began to fade in 1536 when Henry began seizing monasteries, convents and priories; confiscating endowments of universities, chantries, guilds and hospitals. Tenant farmers were displaced, resulting in chaos and, for the first time in English history, wandering paupers and mass poverty.

By 1574, in accord with Protestant law, beggars were branded with hot irons, given iron collars and forced into slavery for two years. That, Jimmy, my lad, is the Merrie England you refer to.

Where are you getting this stuff only Errol Flynn lived in Merrie Old England. I think Merrie England was named for Charles II (The Merrie Monarch) who followed the Protecorate (which had actually abolished everything merry) and it was quite a bit merrier for catholics too because the Queen was Catholic. It’s not particularly an era it’s just a saying and not really an English one at that I fear Hollywood may have played a part. By the way Downton is real

 

[LongingSoul]

In fact, as has been pointed out previously, even in nominally capitalist countries, arms manufacturers are heavily regulated.

As for democracy, all that means is that voters share responsibility for making war.

How would you explain the reluctance of the US to move on these common sense, positive initiatives…

cfr.org/arms-industries-and-trade/strategy-reduce-gun-trafficking-violence-americas/p31155

“The United States is one of three countries that have not ratified the Inter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related Materials (CIFTA). In addition to requiring parties to criminalize the illegal manufacture, import, or export of high-powered weapons, the treaty encourages information exchange and cooperation on initiatives including the marking and tracing of weapons and the identification of criminal transit routes. President Bill Clinton signed CIFTA in 1997 and submitted it for ratification to the Senate, where it has lingered for over a decade. Likewise, although the United States voted in favor of the United Nations’ Arms Trade Treaty in April 2013, it has yet to sign or ratify the treaty.”

Pope Francis is intimately aware of how this foot dragging by the US continues to cause pain for South American countries. What’s the holdup?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

How would you explain the reluctance of the US to move on these common sense, positive initiatives…

Pope Francis is intimately aware of how this foot dragging by the US continues to cause pain for South American countries. What’s the holdup?

I’m curious how the failure of the US Senate to ratify that agreement is an indictment of arms manufacturers and investors.

If this is what is bugging Pope Francis why didn’t he accuse the US Senate of being un-Christian?

Central and South America (i.e. Catholic America) has long been a cesspool of violence. The cause does not lie north of the Rio Grande.

 

[pete_29]

I’d prefer cars to be illegal actually

Yeah, because you can walk across your country.

 

[LongingSoul]

I’m curious how the failure of the US Senate to ratify that agreement is an indictment of arms manufacturers and investors.

I’m asking you that question. Why does congress have so little power to enact any sort of effective legislation that would require arms makers to stick to ethical trade by law? Who has that much power in and over congress to prevent the sign offs? Could the NRA for one, be excerpting corporate and political influence over congress making it more reminiscent of a subversive capitalist dictatorship than a proper capitalist democracy?

If this is what is bugging Pope Francis why didn’t he accuse the US Senate of being un-Christian?

Because as we all recognise, the senate is the puppet in this issue.

Central and South America (i.e. Catholic America) has long been a cesspool of violence. The cause does not lie north of the Rio Grande.

Did you not read the whole article?

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ (ATF) Web-based firearm trace request and analysis system, eTrace, enables law enforcement officials to collaborate with ATF to track the path of recovered weapons from the manufacturer or importer though the distribution chain to the first retail purchase. Over 70 percent of the ninety-nine thousand weapons recovered by Mexican law enforcement since 2007 were traced to U.S. manufacturers and importers. Likewise, 2011 eTrace data for the Caribbean indicates that over 90 percent of the weapons recovered and traced in the Bahamas and over 80 percent of those in Jamaica came from the United States. The ATF has not released data for Central America, but the numbers are likely similar.

The UN Office on Drugs and Crime reports that easy access to firearms is a major factor influencing homicide trends in Latin America and the Caribbean; the gun-related homicide rate in Latin America exceeded the global average in 2010 by more than 30 percent. The World Bank estimates that crime and violence cost Central America nearly 8 percent of its GDP when accounting for the costs of law enforcement, security, and health care."

The refusal of the US to cooperate with the treaties is undermining every effort S.America makes to starve criminals of weapons.

The foreseeable result of this stubborn, ideological refusal may eventually back fire on the US.

“At the 2012 Summit of the Americas, heads of state demanded a new approach to the failed war on drugs, including greater efforts to disarm criminal networks. U.S. allies have repeatedly urged the United States to reinstate the federal assault-weapons ban and take action against weapons trafficking. Their patience—and the United States’ credibility as a responsible partner—is waning. U.S. action will strengthen those regional heads of state who want to work with the United States and who also regard lax U.S. gun laws as fueling violence and anti-Americanism among their own publics. Across the board, Latin American governments are turning toward the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States and the Union of South American Nations, which pointedly exclude the United States, to handle regional political and security dilemmas. Stronger action to regulate the southward flow of weapons represents an opportunity for the Obama administration to enhance U.S. relevance in the region, especially at the early stages of new regional institutions and security protocols.”

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’m asking you that question. Why does congress have so little power to enact any sort of effective legislation that would require arms makers to stick to ethical trade by law?

The Senate has all the power it needs to enact the treaty. It simply chooses not to do so.

Who has that much power in and over congress to prevent the sign offs? Could the NRA for one, be excerpting corporate and political influence over congress making it more reminiscent of a subversive capitalist dictatorship than a proper capitalist democracy?

So you are accusing the pope of promoting the conspiracy theory that the the US Senate is a puppet of the NRA which has some interest in selling guns to Latin America?

Because as we all recognise, the senate is the puppet in this issue.

I guess that answers the question.

Your claim is that Pope Francis does not believe that Senators are moral actors with their own free will.

Did you not read the whole article?

Some of us were not born yesterday.

In 1900 Uruguayan José Enrique Rodó published “Ariel,” which emphasized “the superiority of Latin culture over the mere utilitarianism espoused” by the North. Rodó was “the first ideologue of Latin American nationalism,” and his influence spread throughout the region. “Latin Americanism, especially in the South, was also anti-Yankeeism,” Mr. Krauze writes.

wsj.com/articles/behind-the-popes-embrace-of-castro-1431898937?cb=logged0.22772920900024474

Latin America has long blamed it’s failures on the United States. It was eager to embrace Marxism, among other things, in it’s search for an alternative to free markets. The resulting poverty, civil war, and crime were, of course, the fault of the United States.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU View Post
Horse feathers. See 1350 to 1536, and use a Catholic source [for the history of Catholic England during that period].

What “powers were stripped from the Church in that era”? Remember, it was a totally Catholic culture and a Catholic economic system. In your post #591, you made a similarly inexplicable statement: that the period of Catholic Merrie Olde England had no distinct existence outside of romantic novels and fantasy.

I can’t follow your chronology. It is not possible to confuse what may be the world’s greatest society (i.e., Catholic Merrie Olde England during the period 1350 to 1536) with the living hell beginning with Henry VIII in 1536 during the anti-Catholic “English Reformation”. I suspect you merely have your dates confused.

In any case, we are getting off topic. My point was that there will never again be a Merrie Olde England" because there never again will be a totally Catholic England.

 

[TEPO]

Well if the whole society and economic system, legal system, etc., was totally Catholic then I dont see how England was checkered at that time at all.

It may very well have been one of the great heydays that come and go from time to time.

 

[ephesians4]

Hrm. There’s nothing inherently morally superior about catholics trying to impose a catholic state. Indeed if anything, it’s probably a terrible idea for everyone involved, including the flawed human beings trying to do it.

Our religion contains no manifesto for government, no checklists for worldly compulsion, and while “a bunch of people doing stuff to other people and saying it’s the will of God” might work for ISIS and other extremists, it is arrant nonsense when His Kingom is not of this world.

Anyway, the thing I meant to post here was, I do not read what was said as “Weapons manufacturers can’t call themselves Christians”, which implies borderline excommunication material when what he says is about distrust, and I guess bringing the religion into disrepute through our actions is a different thing to not being a Christian.

Would other people agree with me that the thread title seems, perhaps inadvertently, a little bit misrepresentative of Pope Francis’ words?

 

[zz912]

Latin America has long blamed it’s failures on the United States. It was eager to embrace Marxism, among other things, in it’s search for an alternative to free markets. The resulting poverty, civil war, and crime were, of course, the fault of the United States.

Yep, Latin America, especially Mexico, were on par with the US at the turn of the 20th century. Mexico became enamored with socialism, and the countries there became 3rd world.

Latin America needs to rid itself of the socialism, and they will see their countries improve markedly.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yep, Latin America, especially Mexico, were on par with the US at the turn of the 20th century. Mexico became enamored with socialism, and the countries there became 3rd world.

Latin America needs to rid itself of the socialism, and they will see their countries improve markedly.

The author I cited traced this back to the Spanish American war but I suspect it goes back even further to rivalry between England and Spain. Spain, although for a time a powerful colonial power, was never really a mercantilist or industrial society. Economic philosophers have traced Adam Smith’s ideas to Spanish monks but, for whatever reason, those ideas did not take root and flourish in Spain as they did in England. Naturally, the Spanish resented being shoved aside by the ascendant English. (And,to be fair, there is quite a bit of anti-Spanish and anti-Catholic mythology on the English side.)

Spanish colonies in the Americas were organized very differently from the English colonies. Even after Latin American states gained their independence they continued a pattern of large agricultural holdings by a few powerful individuals. It was fertile ground for Marxism when that came along.

At one time Argentina had a higher standard of living than the US but it rested primarily on the export of natural resources.

 

[roseproject]

I didn’t read the entire thread so I don’t know if this issue has already been cleared up or not.

Just in case it hasn’t, I read an article that may suggest that there was some translation errors. Here’s the article…thecatholicgeeks.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/pope-francis-on-guns-reasons-not-to-freak-out/

 

[KSU]

Well if the whole society and economic system, legal system, etc., was totally Catholic then I don’t see how England was checkered at that time at all.

It may very well have been one of the great heydays that come and go from time to time.

That’s correct. While the UK itself always will be a friend to the US, the point I am making to our three US/gun-bashing friends in the UK (and our non-Catholic friends ) is that there will never again be a “Merrie Olde England” as described in my post #561.

During that period of English history under a Catholic order (1350 to 1536) citizens were not deprived of their God-given freedom of self defense, which is the case in England today. In that respect, England has gone far beyond anything Pope Francis had in mind. Nevertheless, English society not only survived, during that period all aspects of society blossomed into what should be the envy of the modern world. And it would be if not for the bias of many so-called historians and the dumbing down of so-called education.

 

[JimmyG88]

That’s correct. While the UK itself always will be a friend to the US, the point I am making to our three US/gun-bashing friends in the UK (and our non-Catholic friends ) is that there will never again be a “Merrie Olde England” as described in my post #561.

During that period of English history under a Catholic order (1350 to 1536) citizens were not deprived of their God-given freedom of self defense, which is the case in England today. In that respect, England has gone far beyond anything Pope Francis had in mind. Nevertheless, English society not only survived, during that period all aspects of society blossomed into what should be the envy of the modern world. And it would be if not for the bias of many so-called historians and the dumbing down of so-called education.

Where exactly are you getting these random dates during which we had a golden age. I have a first degree in history and you are leaving me puzzled who are you citing?

 

[JimmyG88]

That’s correct. While the UK itself always will be a friend to the US, the point I am making to our three US/gun-bashing friends in the UK (and our non-Catholic friends ) is that there will never again be a “Merrie Olde England” as described in my post #561.

During that period of English history under a Catholic order (1350 to 1536) citizens were not deprived of their God-given freedom of self defense, which is the case in England today. In that respect, England has gone far beyond anything Pope Francis had in mind. Nevertheless, English society not only survived, during that period all aspects of society blossomed into what should be the envy of the modern world. And it would be if not for the bias of many so-called historians and the dumbing down of so-called education.

You have to cut this ‘Merrie England’ out its an artificial construct