Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

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roseproject said:
Just in case it hasn’t, I read an article that may suggest that there was some translation errors. Here’s the article…thecatholicgeeks.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/pope-francis-on-guns-reasons-not-to-freak-out/
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This sort of explanation has been raised from time to time here and in similar past incidents of papal comnent. Some have also suggested that the pope is imprecise in his choice of words, irrespective of translation. Others that the leftist press is taking ownership of him.

My opinion is that the press is probably reading him correctly and putting words into his mouth that capture his thinking. I say this with much sadness and disappointment.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This sort of explanation has been raised from time to time here and in similar past incidents of papal comnent. Some have also suggested that the pope is imprecise in his choice of words, irrespective of translation. Others that the leftist press is taking ownership of him.

My opinion is that the press is probably reading him correctly and putting words into his mouth that capture his thinking. I say this with much sadness and disappointment.
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He is Christ’s Vicar on Earth surely we owe him obedience.
 
I think Francis took it easy on them. I think it is within his powers to excommunicate them. That would have sent a stronger message. I hope he takes the time to revise Catholic thinking on what has been foisted on the catholic body as the
JUST WAR DOCTRINE being a justification for any military conflict.

That said, weapons manufacturers are not agents of the state, but private citizens making money off of armed conflicts or the threat of armed conflict. They generally do not limit their sales to a single government which places their actions outside of the strict conditions of the just war doctrine.
 
Herbert_West said:
I think Francis took it easy on them. I think it is within his powers to excommunicate them. That would have sent a stronger message. I hope he takes the time to revise Catholic thinking on what has been foisted on the catholic body as the
JUST WAR DOCTRINE being a justification for any military conflict.

That said, weapons manufacturers are not agents of the state, but private citizens making money off of armed conflicts or the threat of armed conflict. They generally do not limit their sales to a single government which places their actions outside of the strict conditions of the just war doctrine.
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It’s a shame you lost the Catholic values you claim to have been raised with.
 
Herbert_West said:
I think Francis took it easy on them. I think it is within his powers to excommunicate them. That would have sent a stronger message. I hope he takes the time to revise Catholic thinking on what has been foisted on the catholic body as the
JUST WAR DOCTRINE being a justification for any military conflict.

That said, weapons manufacturers are not agents of the state, but private citizens making money off of armed conflicts or the threat of armed conflict. They generally do not limit their sales to a single government which places their actions outside of the strict conditions of the just war doctrine.
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What a mess.

Of course, there are always harsher punishments. Pope Francis could order arms manufacturers to be burned at the stake. That’s not the question. The question is whether they bear the responsibility that is being assigned them or if they are simply being scapegoated.

Weapons manufacturers are directly owned and controled by the government in some places like North Korea. But they are regulated businessess everywhere else. It is politicians whow decide who they are allowed to sell to. Just war doctrine does not require arms manufacturers to sell only to one government.
 
Bubba, I think you misunderstood my point.

If one were to read the Just War Doctrine, it is clear that wars for peace and defense are the only just wars. Weapons manufacturers sell weapons. They do not limit their uses based on Catholic Doctrine, but rather make their decisions as any business does - will it result in a profit gain.

By mentioning that they were not agents of a government, I am raising the point that their actions cannot be in line with Just War Doctrine. You don’t need to take my word for it. Here it is in plain language.
The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
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As you can see, merchants of war are removed from the decision making process enumerated to justify military action. Instead, they produce weapons and sell them. This is a violation of the third condition.
 
Criticizing weapons manufacturers is nothing new. In fact the evils wrought by rampant production of arms has been noted for some time. Here is something that you might find interesting. This was published in 2000. Before our current war of terror. The practice is the same. The effects are probably the same. The weapons dealers just make more money.

Report: U.S. Arms to Africa and the Congo War - World Policy Institute - Research Project
Arms Trade Resource Center

worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm
Finding 2 – The ongoing civil war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire) is a prime example of the devastating legacy of U.S. arms sales policy on Africa. The U.S. prolonged the rule of Zairian dictator Mobutu Sese Soko by providing more than $300 million in weapons and $100 million in military training. Mobutu used his U.S.-supplied arsenal to repress his own people and plunder his nation’s economy for three decades, until his brutal regime was overthrown by Laurent Kabila’s forces in 1997. When Kabila took power, the Clinton administration quickly offered military support by developing a plan for new training operations with the armed forces.
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Finding 3 – Although the Clinton administration has been quick to criticize the governments involved in the Congo War, decades of U.S. weapons transfers and continued military training to both sides of the conflict have helped fuel the fighting. The U.S. has helped build the arsenals of eight of the nine governments directly involved in the war that has ravaged the DRC since Kabila’s coup. U.S. military transfers in the form of direct government-to-government weapons deliveries, commercial sales, and International Military Education and Training (IMET) to the states directly involved have totaled more than $125 million since the end of the Cold War.
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Herbert_West said:
Bubba, I think you misunderstood my point.

If one were to read the Just War Doctrine, it is clear that wars for peace and defense are the only just wars. Weapons manufacturers sell weapons. They do not limit their uses based on Catholic Doctrine, but rather make their decisions as any business does - will it result in a profit gain.

By mentioning that they were not agents of a government, I am raising the point that their actions cannot be in line with Just War Doctrine. You don’t need to take my word for it. Here it is in plain language.

As you can see, merchants of war are removed from the decision making process enumerated to justify military action. Instead, they produce weapons and sell them. This is a violation of the third condition.
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The reason that we disagree is that your analysis neglects, entirely, the regulation of the arms industry. Yes, arm manufacturers pursue profit but legal profit. The regulation of the arms industry fully satisfies Catholic justice.

Worse, your complaints and those of similar mind ignore, entirely, that arm merchants do not wage war. Governments (and pseudo governments) do.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
The reason that we disagree is that your analysis neglects, entirely, the regulation of the arms industry. Yes, arm manufacturers pursue profit but legal profit. The regulation of the arms industry fully satisfies Catholic justice.

Worse, your complaints and those of similar mind ignore, entirely, that arm merchants do not wage war. Governments (and pseudo governments) do.
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But it seems your argument neglects the teachings of the Pontiff.
(AGI) Vatican City, May 11 - Pope Francis said “many powerful people don’t want peace because they live off war”. He was talking to children from Rome’s primary schools on Monday at a special audience organised by the Factory for Peace (“Fabbrica della pace”) Foundation in the Nervi Room. Behind any war there is always the arms industry, he said. “This is serious. Some powerful people make their living with the production of arms and sell them to one country for them to use against another country … It’s the industry of death, the greed that harms us all, the desire to have more money.” The Pope went on: "The economic system orbits around money and not men, women … So war is waged in order to defend money.
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This is why some people don’t want peace: they make more money from war, although wars make money but lose lives, health, education." He quoted an elderly priest who said: “The devil enters through our wallets.” He sorrowfully explained: “The devil enters through greed and this is why they don’t want peace.” He reminded the children that “there can be no peace without justice” and asked them to repeat it out loud with him three times. “Peace must be built day by day and even if, one day in the future we can say that there will finally be no more wars, then too peace will be built day by day because peace is not an industrial product, it is artisanal: it is built day by day through our mutual love, our closeness. And in this craftsmanship, the respect for people is always at the top of the list. Peace, above all, is the absence of war but also joy, which day by day leads to justice, till there might be no diseased and ailing children: to do all this is to make peace; it is an action; it does not mean keeping still. It means working towards providing everybody with the solution to their problems. This is how peace is handicrafted. And religion helps in this because it makes us walk in the presence of God; it helps us through the Commandments, the Beatitudes, and especially the commandment common to all faiths: love thy neighbour as thyself. This is what helps us all to make peace.” (AGI)
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From Bubba:
Worse, your complaints and those of similar mind ignore, entirely, that arm merchants do not wage war. Governments (and pseudo governments) do.
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From the Pope:
In his Turin address to young people he also warned against putting too much trust in politicians, saying: "In Europe there is war, in Africa there is war, in Asia there is war. But can I have trust in a world like this? Can I trust the world’s managers?
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“When I go to give my vote for a candidate, can I trust that they will not bring my country to war? If you put trust only in people, you lose.”
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So then I have to ask you… why do you so casually dismiss the Pope on this matter? I can see why you would reject mine. We don’t know each other. You would have no reason to believe anything I say, which is why I linked the Just War Doctrine so that you could read it for yourself. That is why I linked the words of the Pope, so that you could read them for yourself, but what is strange is that you dismiss the Pope’s position as if he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Now that is a head scratcher.
 
Herbert_West said:
So then I have to ask you… why do you so casually dismiss the Pope on this matter?
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This, of course, is what we have been discussing here.

I do not “casually dismiss” Pope Francis, I disagree with him here. I have made no effort to hide my disagreement with the pope on this matter.

However, even he is not claiming that the private arms industry is an inherent violation of just war principles as you asserted.
I can see why you would reject mine. We don’t know each other. You would have no reason to believe anything I say, which is why I linked the Just War Doctrine so that you could read it for yourself. That is why I linked the words of the Pope, so that you could read them for yourself, but what is strange is that you dismiss the Pope’s position as if he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Now that is a head scratcher.
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The pope does not know what he is talking about. There is nothing strange in that. He is not an expert in the arms industry or the regulation of arms manufacturing.

Note that we have also discussed whether the pope was accurately quoted and represented by the press. I believe these paragraphs reflect his thinking even if they are not his actual words.

And nobody yet has been willing to name a single arms manufacturer that is guilty of the crimes that have been thrown out in general against them.
 
Maybe you are not familiar with documentation with regards to the complicity of arms dealers in the commission of war crimes. Human Rights Watch has looked into it.

Here is a good read.

But you are right, I don’t know of any weapons merchants that have been convicted of crimes. But that doesn’t mean they are not guilty. It seems that the justice system favors the rich and powerful.
 
Herbert_West said:
Maybe you are not familiar with documentation with regards to the complicity of arms dealers in the commission of war crimes. Human Rights Watch has looked into it.

Here is a good read.

But you are right, I don’t know of any weapons merchants that have been convicted of crimes. But that doesn’t mean they are not guilty. It seems that the justice system favors the rich and powerful.
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Yes, I am familiar with the attempts to blame arms manufacturers for the sins of murderers.

It’s much easier to hurl vague accusations of conspiracy than to identify actual wrong doers.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Yes, I am familiar with the attempts to blame arms manufacturers for the sins of murderers.

It’s much easier to hurl vague accusations of conspiracy than to identify actual wrong doers.
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Apparently when you manufacture a weapon, you are responsible for every possible use of that weapon…ever. Even if you sold it to a reputable government or entity. Even if that govt or entity then decided to conduct an evil act of war, you are responsible.

:rolleyes:
 
zz912 said:
Apparently when you manufacture a weapon, you are responsible for every possible use of that weapon…ever. Even if you sold it to a reputable government or entity. Even if that govt or entity then decided to conduct an evil act of war, you are responsible.

:rolleyes:
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If the only intent is to make money, with the knowledge that they result in significant damage and loss of lives for no good/just reason, isn’t that just turning a blind eye?

Responsible for every possible use? That’s not possible.

Responsible for considering the possibility of pointless suffering and loss? Why not?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
I do not “casually dismiss” Pope Francis, I disagree with him here. I have made no effort to hide my disagreement with the pope on this matter.
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No, you have not actually disagreed with the pope. You have disagreed with a fictitious caricature of the pope, ascribing meaning and interpretation to his words are just not justified. His address to the young people in Turin was not about the evils of manufacturers of weapons. Read the whole transcript and see what he was really talking about.

To illustrate the error of your interpretation, suppose the address had been about avoiding excessive reliance on wealth. If the pope had said “You cannot put your ultimate trust in wealth”, you would not take that as a condemnation of bankers and merchants, would you? Of course not! But that is exactly the kind of thinking that causes you to take from "You cannot put your ultimate trust in weapons or the people who make them or use them", the mistaken interpretation that being a weapons maker makes you evil. I’m sure the pope would get a good laugh out of these wild interpretations of his address.
 
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