Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian

[Bubba_Switzler]

What is your position then? Keep the status quo and chalk up the poverty and powerlessness caused by capitalist greed to collateral damage? Pope Francis is not a government power of course, but the Church has a mission on this earth to speak up on morality and its influence derives from the obedience of Catholic citizens who elect the governments.

My position is this: stop scapegoating arms manufacturers and investors for th sins of govenments.

Recognize that government has no power but for the arms they buy from manufacturers. Putting government in charge of arms manufacturing, as if it weren’t already, is absurd.

I won’t tell Pope Francis how to run the Catholic Church but I will stand up for scapegoats.

 

[LongingSoul]

My position is this: stop scapegoating arms manufacturers and investors for th sins of govenments.

Recognize that government has no power but for the arms they buy from manufacturers. Putting government in charge of arms manufacturing, as if it weren’t already, is absurd.

I won’t tell Pope Francis how to run the Catholic Church but I will stand up for scapegoats.

So in other words your position is ‘keep the status quo’ because gun rights is more important than the lives affected by proliferation?

 

[LongingSoul]

Throughout the history of the world the government often turns it’s power against it’s own citizens, in addition to North Korea, just in the last ~120 years:
…Russia (how many millions of dead starved by their own government?)
…China (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution-- again millions)
…Armenian genocide
…Cambodia (the killing fields)
…Germany (Holocaust)

Various African, South American, Asian, and Mid-Eastern countries doing the same, oppressing their own folks. Fox and the henhouse-- those often put in place to proved the moral guidance to prevail over industries end up being the ones to apply them in unethical ways. Of course, they almost always justify it to themselves. But, if they control it they can ensure their intended victims are defenseless.

Those examples aren’t examples of democratic governments. We don’t formulate laws based on what governments might do if they are usurped by an evil dictator. We make laws based on the common good of all citizens.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So in other words your position is ‘keep the status quo’ because gun rights is more important than the lives affected by proliferation?

So you care about the “lives affected by proliferation” but not about the lives taken by governments waging unjust war?

Who do you propose to disarm? Who will do the disarming? And how will they do it if not with arms?

 

[KSU]

Hardly. I can only speak for myself here. But I read a post by the other poster and this poster seems to have their head well screwed on as well. If you are implying that I am posting under two names, you are wrong. It is not unusual for people to agree. and I would consider your opinion, despite possibly being heard on here, not in the majority.

Now you’re just being silly (at best). Of course I’m not implying that you are posting under two names.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Those examples aren’t examples of democratic governments. We don’t formulate laws based on what governments might do if they are usurped by an evil dictator. We make laws based on the common good of all citizens.

Are you proposing that democratic states wage war against “evil dictator” nations to disarm them?

Want to go to war against North Korea?

 

[LongingSoul]

Are you proposing that democratic states wage war against “evil dictator” nations to disarm them?

Want to go to war against North Korea?

No, I’m saying in our democratic systems of government we are bound to make laws that serve the common good of all. Demonstrating that some governments are evil dictatorships should not influence the laws we make directed at the common good.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Those examples aren’t examples of democratic governments. We don’t formulate laws based on what governments might do if they are usurped by an evil dictator. We make laws based on the common good of all citizens.

So we ignore what history has taught us about laws based on good intentions can be enablers to tyrants? When I think of the common good, I think long term.

The Pope is right in that those seeking to instigate hostilities in order to make or increase profits, who disregard how weapons may be used AND misused, who don’t consider all the implications are acting immorally.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, I’m saying in our democratic systems of government we are bound to make laws that serve the common good of all. Demonstrating that some governments are evil dictatorships should not influence the laws we make directed at the common good.

I lack your faith in democratic systems but that is academic.

It’s not only evil dictatorships that wage war.

And what democratic laws do you imagine will affect North Korea, Iran, or ISIS, to name just a few trouble makers?

 

[KSU]

The Pope is right in that those seeking to instigate hostilities in order to make or increase profits, who disregard how weapons may be used AND misused, who don’t consider all the implications are acting immorally.

Why are you making it so difficult for those who want to twist the Holy Father’s words? That’s just mean.

And, graciew, if you are reading this, thank you for the link in your post #430. It confirms
styrgwillidar’s words above, to the consternation of the Pax Christi/Socialist crowd which has no qualms about trying to make Pope Francis seem to be one of them.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Why are you making it so difficult for those who want to twist the Holy Father’s words? That’s just mean.

And, graciew, if you are reading this, thank you for the link in your post #430. It confirms
styrgwillidar’s words above, to the consternation of the Pax Christi/Socialist crowd which has no qualms about trying to make Pope Francis seem to be one of them.

I have no problem with Pope Francis pointing out that folks selling products have a moral obligation to consider how they are used. I think the classic example is the weapons manufacturer who sells to both sides in a conflict.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I have no problem with Pope Francis pointing out that folks selling products have a moral obligation to consider how they are used. I think the classic example is the weapons manufacturer who sells to both sides in a conflict.

We’re 460 posts into this thread and, although that particular accuslation has been leveled several times, nobody has yet offered a single example of an arms manufacturer selling to both sides in a conflict.

 

[styrgwillidar]

We’re 460 posts into this thread and, although that particular accuslation has been leveled several times, nobody has yet offered a single example of an arms manufacturer selling to both sides in a conflict.

Well, not a manufacturer, but the US government provided weapons to both sides in the Mexican drug cartel conflict for a while.

 

[JimmyG88]

Maybe he was referring to the blight of land mines or some of the inhuman instruments of torture manufactured in Europe and America but only used in the Middle East and Africa et al. Or possibly some of the automatic weapons that we find making the way to the streets

 

[KSU]

Well, not a manufacturer, but the US government provided weapons to both sides in the Mexican drug cartel conflict for a while.

Good one but we both know Dear Leader and his top lawyer were trying to make it appear the US gun dealers were doing it. Dear Leader’s target, of course, was (and remains) our Second Amendment. That’s not the Pope’s target.

 

[pete_29]

Russian weapons are the most readily available on the planet. Why hasn’t someone discussed this with Putin?

 

[styrgwillidar]

Good one but we both know Dear Leader and his top lawyer were trying to make it appear the US gun dealers were doing it. Dear Leader’s target, of course, was (and remains) our Second Amendment. That’s not the Pope’s target.

The kicker being the government, responsible for overseeing export of weapons, violated export laws in the process (at least, ATF/FBI/DEA/DOJ still has not provided any indication they obtained the required export approval and licenses for the weapons to the cartels via Fast and Furious; Castaway; Wide Receiver II, or two unnamed operations in Texas. Manufactures did obtain the requisite approval/licenses for weapons sold to the Mexican governmnt).

 

[KSU]

pete 29, Rachel is being added to my prayers. Been there.

 

[Brendan]

I think that some ‘body’ invested in ethical and moral behaviour, has to prevail over certain industries and that includes the weapons industry. Privatisation has been the cause the escalation of greed driven markets in the world that is causing havoc for the poor and powerless.

So give me some specific examples. Does the fact that ASC make a profit when it makes subs for the RAN mean that it is more evil than if the RAN owned the shipyards, hired the engineers and welders, and made the subs themselves?

How does ASC building subs for the Navy ‘escalate greed’?

Or Thales Australia makes a pretty nice armored car called the Bushmaster. They just sold a dozen to the Dutch Army. Would it have been more ethical for the ADF to have manufactured them themselves, would the ADF selling the cars to the Dutch been more moral?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Russian weapons are the most readily available on the planet. Why hasn’t someone discussed this with Putin?

Even Putin doesn’t supply arms to both sides in wars, though I’m sure there are cases where the Russian arms are found in the hands of both sides (e.g. the Syrian civil war).