Pope Seeks End to Death Penalty

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Did you know that murder rates are higher in states in the US which have the death penalty compared to neighbouring states which don’t?

So as a deterrent/prevention/solution, it doesn’t seem to be working. Some theories are that the death penalty is so severe, people think it’ll never happen to them.
Or is it that the states with the highest murder rates have the hightest rates of execution? The causal relation isn’t always so clearly defined.

There really is no clear-cut deterrent to evil other than the grace of God. Some people just won’t accept it, and they’ll commit brutal crimes again and again simply because they want to. The death penalty isn’t always about deterrence or punishment, but about protection of society.
 
Or is it that the states with the highest murder rates have the hightest rates of execution? The causal relation isn’t always so clearly defined.

There really is no clear-cut deterrent to evil other than the grace of God. Some people just won’t accept it, and they’ll commit brutal crimes again and again simply because they want to. The death penalty is always about deterrence or punishment, but about protection of society.
I don’t think execution rates are included in the murder rates as it’s not considered murder, which is the term for an illegal killing.

Casality is irrelevant. If the threat of execution was enough to deter people from commiting murders, then murder rates should be lower than in states which don’t have the death penalty, especially if it had been legal for many years.
 
I don’t think execution rates are included in the murder rates as it’s not considered murder, which is the term for an illegal killing.

Casality is irrelevant. If the threat of execution was enough to deter people from commiting murders, then murder rates should be lower than in states which don’t have the death penalty, especially if it had been legal for many years.
That’s not what I’m talking about here. I mean that if a state has more murderers, there may often be more use of the capital punishment.

I mean’t to negate that last sentence of my post (I edited the “is” with “isn’t”.

Causality is always relevant. Any sociologist or statistician knows that. That point aside, as I stated, the death penalty is about more than just deterrence.
 
If I’m going to take sides on this issue, I side with the innocent, and not with the guilty.
 
As other people have said the death penalty is about more than deterrence, it is about justice, which thomas aquinas tells us is 'The virtue of rendering to all what they are due’, now it is incontestable that if someone else murders another person they have deprived them of life, worse still if they have killed several people. What are they therefore due? If punishment must fit the crime, then nothing fits the crime of taking another persons life but that the person who took the life has his life taken away from him, in fact Justice demands it. There can be no equivalence between living, no matter how long that time be spent in jail, and not living, the only punishment which fits the crime of murder is the deprivation of life.

The death penalty is just because:

1)It gives murderers what they are due
2)It gives the victims of murderers what they are due (namely reparation)
3)It repays the murderers debt to society

It is worth nothing something that is often forgotten, death has a purgatorial value, one could even say a supreme purgatorial value, if it is accepted by the person it can expiate their sins (providing other conditions are met of course) and besides repay their debt to their victims and society. No amount of time in prison will be able to repay that debt because there is no equivalence between existence and non-existence they are complete opposites.

Nor is the death penalty ‘unloving’, it is incontestably more kind than locking a person up in a small cell for the rest of their lives, where they may spend 20+ hrs a day and besides are completely deprived of their liberty.

Lastly it is worth seeing what St Thomas Aquinas says on the matter:
The slaying of an evil-doer is lawful inasmuch as it is directed to the welfare of the whole community, and therefore appertains to him alone who has charge of the community. Now the care of the common good is entrusted to rulers having public authority; and therefore to them is it lawful to slay evil-doers, not to private individuals
ST, IIa IIae, q. 64, art. 3
Every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part exists naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we see that if the health of the whole human body demands the excision of a member, because it became putrid or infectious to the other members, it would be both praiseworthy and healthful to have it cut away. Now every individual person is related to the entire society as a part to the whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and healthful that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since "a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:6)
Summa Theologiae, II, II, q. 64, art. 2
The fact that the evil ones, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement.
They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so obstinate that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from malice, it is possible to make a quite probable judgment that they would never come away from evil.
Summa contra gentiles, Book III, chapter 146

Lastly it is worth looking at the point of view those who oppose the death penalty in all cases, most likely this is because they believe life is always an inviolable right. However this is clearly not the case, mosaic law laid down numerous circumstances where the lives of a person could be taken as a punishment e.g bestiality, sodomy, adultery etc… and in the new testament God strikes down Annanis and Saphira. Since then the Church has repeated this teaching through St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, who both explicitly supported the death penalty, not due to historical or practical considerations, but for permenantly valid theological reasons. People can lose their right to life through their moral actions, when this is the case society does not take their right to life away from them, they have already deprived themselves of that right, rather it enforces this deprivation. Life is given to us to save our souls, it is a means to an end, not an end in itself, if therefore a person is depriving others of this means, abusing this right thereby most likely losing their own soul, endangering others souls and even causing them to lose it, that person can be said to lose their right to life. It is up to the society to enforce this loss of right, through the judicial system and to work out what actions are sufficently grave to enable it to be known that they have lost this right, in accordance of course with natural and divine law.

Pope Pius XII said in a speech on the 14th of september 1952 'Even when it is a question of someone condemned to death, the state does not dispose of an individuals right to life. It is the task of the public authority to deprive the condemned man of the good of life, in expiation of his fault, after he has already deprived himself of the right to life by his crime’

Roman Amerio says in his famous Book 'Iota Unum’ 'If one considers the parallel with one’s right to freedom, it becomes obvious that an innocent mans right to life is indeed inviolable, whereas a guilty person has diminished his rights by the actions of his depraved will: the right to freedom is innate, inviolable and imprescriptible, but penal codes nonetheless recognise the legitmacy of depriving people of their liberty, even for life, as a punishment for crime, and all nations in fact adopt this practice…'
 
If I’m going to take sides on this issue, I side with the innocent, and not with the guilty.
So do I. So I side with all those innocent death row victims who were murdered by the state then later pardonned.

I also, however, side for those relatives of the victim, wishing for the death penalty and who believe the horrible lie of “an eye for an eye” is a fair justice system. I really do not agree with it at all.
 
So do I. So I side with all those innocent death row victims who were murdered by the state then later pardonned.

I also, however, side for those relatives of the victim, wishing for the death penalty and who believe the horrible lie of “an eye for an eye” is a fair justice system. I really do not agree with it at all.
I’m with you, the Holy Father, and the Bishops.
 
Vatican: DP is moral, because Tradition says so.

BUT.… We are going to stop using it in Vatican City (Its been off the books for 50 yrs now)
AND… We don’t think anyone else should have the DP.

In a hypothetical world its totally moral, but in the real world no one should ever use it.

:confused:
 
In a hypothetical world its totally moral, but in the real world no one should ever use it.
The death penalty is essentially society’s form of self defense. In your personal self defense you have the right to kill an attacker who you reasonably believe to be after your life or limb. However, if there is an alternate way to prevent your injury/death then you are morally obligated to choose that.

In all cases of self defense that results in killing, it can only be morally done if there is a reasonable serious risk and there are no other reasonable/practical options.

The death penalty is not inherently morally wrong, it draws its rightness or wrongness based on circumstances much like all self defense.

BJP2 and Pope Benedict both believe(d) that modern society has reasonable and practical alternatives to protect society.
 
So do I. So I side with all those innocent death row victims who were murdered by the state then later pardonned.
I also, however, side for those relatives of the victim, wishing for the death penalty and who believe the horrible lie of “an eye for an eye” is a fair justice system. I really do not agree with it at all.
While I’m sure it has happened on more than one occasion (especially in the past when Juries/Judges were more racially biased and technology to confirm killers was not as advanced) why would you want to remove a tool that permanently removes extremely dangerous people from endangering anyone else in society?

Also wouldn’t calling the justice of “an eye for an eye” a horrible lie be considered rather blasphemous against God?

Finally my own 2 cents, I may end up being seen as a draconian monster but in this day an age I’m wondering why the State is forced to have to house, feed and educate prisoners who have committed such horrid acts such as murder and rape. To be honest I would support the government if it decided on the death penalty on all people guilty of 1st degree murder and rape as I find those two crimes too evil to be allowed to continue existence on this Earth.
 
The death penalty is essentially society’s form of self defense. In your personal self defense you have the right to kill an attacker who you reasonably believe to be after your life or limb. However, if there is an alternate way to prevent your injury/death then you are morally obligated to choose that.

In all cases of self defense that results in killing, it can only be morally done if there is a reasonable serious risk and there are no other reasonable/practical options.

The death penalty is not inherently morally wrong, it draws its rightness or wrongness based on circumstances much like all self defense.

BJP2 and Pope Benedict both believe(d) that modern society has reasonable and practical alternatives to protect society.
Yes but at the end of the day one can not forget about the retributive goals of the Death Penalty which the Church recognizes. This is why the DP in today’s high tech world is not sinful. The Pope/JP II are asking Catholics to turn away from this Church recognized justification. This has Catholics like Scalia very upset.
 
Vatican: DP is moral, because Tradition says so.

BUT.… We are going to stop using it in Vatican City (Its been off the books for 50 yrs now)
AND… We don’t think anyone else should have the DP.

In a hypothetical world its totally moral, but in the real world no one should ever use it.

:confused:
In the real world the Church allows for the death penalty Always has The Pope opposes it as do I but neither of our opinions are binding on Catholics.
 
In the real world the Church allows for the death penalty Always has The Pope opposes it as do I but neither of our opinions are binding on Catholics.
So the Pope is 100% opposed to something the Church Permits…thats a little confusing.
 
So the Pope is 100% opposed to something the Church Permits…thats a little confusing.
The Pope is saying that in our present day those situations that would necessitate reliance on the death penalty are practically non-existent. That’s not a contradiction. If modern technology led to a world where every person was equipped with a “self-defense bubble” that would sense danger and automatically deploy in order to protect a person from attack, then the situations where it would be justifiable to kill someone in self-defense would also be practically non-existent.
 
I wish he’d focus on abortion. It is the most morally bankrupt issue of our time.
In seeking to end the death penalty he is in fact stepping towards a consistent ethic of life (from conception to natural death). This action should be viewed very positively in also supporting an end to abortion.
 
In seeking to end the death penalty he is in fact stepping towards a consistent ethic of life (from conception to natural death). This action should be viewed very positively in also supporting an end to abortion.
I wholeheartedly concur.👍 From conception to natural death, that’s the true Catholic position.
 
There really is no clear-cut deterrent to evil other than the grace of God. Some people just won’t accept it, and they’ll commit brutal crimes again and again simply because they want to. The death penalty isn’t always about deterrence or punishment, but about protection of society.
All sanctions must be about justice first, because there is no moral support for sanction if the person does not deserve the sanction.

Yes, the death penalty is a greator protector of innocents than any other sanction, but that is a benefit of the death penalty, not the reason for it.
 
I wholeheartedly concur.👍 From conception to natural death, that’s the true Catholic position.
There has been nearly 2000 years of Church teachings supportive of the death penalty, which seems to be the true Catholic position.

It is hard to fathom that the very uneven, secular state of the prison system can be used as the standard to change that level of support, but that appears to be the case, since 1995. Very odd, particularly with the secular reality that the death penalty and executions provide a greater protection of innocents and thusly, a greater defense of society.

If the Church were to simply abandon 2000 years of teachings and switch to secular standards, even that would call for more executions, not less.
 
So the Pope is 100% opposed to something the Church Permits…thats a little confusing.
Why? The Pope is entitled to his opinion just as is everybody else. . We should give great weight to his words but also acknowledge his clear, concise statement that Catholics in good conscience can support the death penalty.
 
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