Pope Seeks End to Death Penalty

[stanczyk]

You noticed that, did you. If the circumstances determine the evil, then the evil is not, by definition, intrinsic. If any qualify makes a moral change, then we are not speaking of an intrinsic evil.

Again, I completely understand why you would be confused at this subtle distinction. But you are mistaken. The argument has be discussed at length earlier in the thread, perhaps you have not read the thread.

Is killing an intrinsic evil? No. But is murder an intrinsic evil? Yes. What is murder? An illegitimate killing.

An illegitiamte killing is an intrinsic evil. A justified killing is not. The death penalty is a type of killing. The gratuitous use of the death penalty is a murder, an intrinsic evil. Just like abortion. QED

Happy to explain further if you need additional clarification.

 

[pnewton]

The teaching is that if the death penalty is not necessary for the defense of society or an alternative is available, it is a murder, no different than an abortion.

I submit that you will not find this statement of yours anywhere in Catholic teaching. Therefore, I challenge you to show us where the Catholic Church teaches this, or are you just making this up.

I am inclined to agree with the Pope’s and the Blessed John Paul’s opinions on this question of fact.

It is for people like you, I have my signature line.

 

[pnewton]

The gratuitous use of the death penalty is a murder, an intrinsic evil. Just like abortion. QED

Happy to explain further if you need additional clarification.

LOL. No thanks. I will stick with the Catholic Church, thank you very much. There have always been folks here that want to tell others what they should believe or think in the name of the Church. There is, however, only one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. All this rherotic about what a “pro-life Catholic” will do is empty and devoid of authority once it makes one step beyond what the Church teaches.

 

[stanczyk]

LOL. No thanks. I will stick with the Catholic Church, thank you very much.

Then you would do well to read the thread. The argument is derived from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Evangelium Vitae of John Paul II, and the direct quotations were provided earlier. So, in short, I am merely reciting the teaching of the Church.

 

[stanczyk]

I submit that you will not find this statement of yours anywhere in Catholic teaching. Therefore, I challenge you to show us where the Catholic Church teaches this, or are you just making this up.

Again, you should really read the thread. These statements come from the Catechism and Evangelium Vitae. To wit:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8657205&postcount=133

I understand how if you think I am just saying this with no ecclesiatical basis, your snarky remarks are warranted. But your premise is faulty, as what I am saying is based strictly on the Church’s teaching.

It is for people like you, I have my signature line.

In the end, the answers to all questions of fact are in the form of opinions.

 

[pnewton]

Then you would do well to read the thread. The argument is derived from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Evangelium Vitae of John Paul II, and the direct quotations were provided earlier. So, in short, I am merely reciting the teaching of the Church.

You are reciting, but you are also rewording, then adding extra stuff.

 

[rlg94086]

You noticed that, did you. If the circumstances determine the evil, then the evil is not, by definition, intrinsic. If any qualify makes a moral change, then we are not speaking of an intrinsic evil.

Exactly. As TMC pointed out, and stancyk oddly agreed, it is semantic, circular reasoning.

 

[stanczyk]

You are reciting, but you are also rewording, then adding extra stuff.

Again, the teaching of the Church is clear on the matter, and I have provided direct quotations.

 

[stanczyk]

Exactly. As TMC pointed out, and stancyk oddly agreed, it is semantic, circular reasoning.

You’re misusing the word “semantic.”

The argument is an issue of semantics. It is not “circular” by any means. I am correct, and if you read TMC’s and my posts carefully you will see that we are both in agreement.

 

[rlg94086]

You’re misusing the word “semantic.”

The argument is an issue of semantics. It is not “circular” by any means. I am correct, and if you read TMC’s and my posts carefully you will see that we are both in agreement.

By calling something that is always evil under certain circumstances “intrinsic,” you at making a semantic argument using circular reasoning. I agree with your point, but you are needlessly arguing about the use of “intrinsic.” If the Pope used the term, you would at least have something from the Church to back your use of the term.

 

[ringil]

Those are certainly good “what ifs”. Are there any examples?

I vaguely remember that Timothy McVeigh was a lapsed Catholic, but repented before his execution.

He simply “saw a priest”. We do not know if he repented, indeed he NEVER verbally repented and read the poem Invictus as his last words. Does this sound like the words or attitude of a repentant man to you because it sure as heck doesn’t to me. He did not apologize for his actions at any point. The day before he died he listed his religion as “agnostic”.

He was visited by a priest. This we know.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

He simply “saw a priest”. We do not know if he repented, indeed he NEVER verbally repented and read the poem Invictus as his last words. Does this sound like the words or attitude of a repentant man to you because it sure as heck doesn’t to me. He did not apologize for his actions at any point. The day before he died he listed his religion as “agnostic”.

He was visited by a priest. This we know.

Right, if McVeigh repented and received absolution before his execution, then he is at the very least in Purgatory, for which we Catholics should all be rejoicing. If not, then he received what he deserved, which we should be rejoicing, for God is not only a God of love, but He is also a God of Justice.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

He simply “saw a priest”. We do not know if he repented, indeed he NEVER verbally repented and read the poem Invictus as his last words. Does this sound like the words or attitude of a repentant man to you because it sure as heck doesn’t to me. He did not apologize for his actions at any point. The day before he died he listed his religion as “agnostic”.

He was visited by a priest. This we know.

Agnostic is a pretty serious lapse. So is there a list somewhere of those criminals who did convert to God? If it’s important that we can’t execute someone who would have otherwise came to salvation, someone must have made a list somewhere of those that had the chance and took it.

 

[ringil]

Agnostic is a pretty serious lapse. So is there a list somewhere of those criminals who did convert to God? If it’s important that we can’t execute someone who would have otherwise came to salvation, someone must have made a list somewhere of those that had the chance and took it.

I would imagine there have been some murderers who were Catholic, or became Catholic, who did sincerely approach the Lord in Confession and Communion before they died. Certainly we, and the Orthodox, have these great Sacraments to give us the assurance of God’s forgiveness if sincerely sought.

I do know there have been some Protestants who certainly “claim” to have found Christ before they were executed and even some who did show what appeared to be true sorrow at their last moments. There are also some who, though, claiming to be Christian, denied their crimes until the end. I am not God but I would imagine this shows a lack of repentance, or perhaps some kind of delusionary compartmentalization of the mind.

On a side, and, I hope not rule breaking note. John Wayne Gacy (Clown Killer and all-around unpleasant human) was at one point a Catholic. His last words were “kiss my ___” so i’d uh. . . . pretty much write him off. . . . . . .

I certainly would rejoice at a Catholic or Christian making such a shift in their lives and I am sure that the Lord is there to embrace them in Heaven. I can only hope and pray that I can have a chance to meet Christ as one relying on His mercy.

There are priests and theologians who believe that, perhaps, we are given one last chance even following what we think of as medical death, when our eyes are open clearly to God’s love and given a choice of accepting him. I believe this may be true, but we certainly can’t say with any level of confidence.

 

[Langdell]

Not to beat a dead horse, but … I’m having trouble reading CCC 2267 as not meaning that a developed country like the U.S. should not be using the death penalty.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

Not to beat a dead horse, but … I’m having trouble reading CCC 2267 as not meaning that a developed country like the U.S. should not be using the death penalty.

What does developed mean? We can get a man to the moon? Which has, what(?), to do with our penal system?

About a year ago, about 2 blocks away, 3 people were murdered by some guy that just got out of prison for murder. Not a very secure system in this country, is it? Now, had he been executed to start with, we could have saved 3 innocent lives.

Like the Pope, I would like to see the end of the DP, but we need to fix the system first, which, if I recall from the expanded quote from the Pope, he did mention that.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

What does developed mean? We can get a man to the moon? Which has, what(?), to do with our penal system?

About a year ago, about 2 blocks away, 3 people were murdered by some guy that just got out of prison for murder. Not a very secure system in this country, is it? Now, had he been executed to start with, we could have saved 3 innocent lives.

Like the Pope, I would like to see the end of the DP, but we need to fix the system first, which, if I recall from the expanded quote from the Pope, he did mention that.

You are reinforcing my idea about establishing a penal colony on the moon.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

A lot of people might imagine, but that means we don’t know it is so, which means I don’t know if that’s a good reason to end the death penalty.

I would imagine there have been some murderers who were Catholic, or became Catholic, who did sincerely approach the Lord in Confession and Communion before they died. Certainly we, and the Orthodox, have these great Sacraments to give us the assurance of God’s forgiveness if sincerely sought.

I do know there have been some Protestants who certainly “claim” to have found Christ before they were executed and even some who did show what appeared to be true sorrow at their last moments. There are also some who, though, claiming to be Christian, denied their crimes until the end. I am not God but I would imagine this shows a lack of repentance, or perhaps some kind of delusionary compartmentalization of the mind.

On a side, and, I hope not rule breaking note. John Wayne Gacy (Clown Killer and all-around unpleasant human) was at one point a Catholic. His last words were “kiss my ___” so i’d uh. . . . pretty much write him off. . . . . . .

I certainly would rejoice at a Catholic or Christian making such a shift in their lives and I am sure that the Lord is there to embrace them in Heaven. I can only hope and pray that I can have a chance to meet Christ as one relying on His mercy.

There are priests and theologians who believe that, perhaps, we are given one last chance even following what we think of as medical death, when our eyes are open clearly to God’s love and given a choice of accepting him. I believe this may be true, but we certainly can’t say with any level of confidence.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

You are reinforcing my idea about establishing a penal colony on the moon.

Considering that it was the Pope who made this comment, and John Paul made similar comments, and they are good Popes, so I know I have to give serious consideration to what they say, however, I probably have to give more serious consideration to the CCC.

Now, the above poster reads it and sees that we should not have the DP, but yet, when I read it, how can I help but see that the Church has always taught that the state has the right? And although the necessity is rare or non-existent, it is there, and removing the possibility of the DP precludes that. So how does Benedict address this apparent disparity between his comments, and the CCC?

I don’t know if anyone addressed that yet. I’m looking for it. I just want to make sure it doesn’t look like I like the DP. It’s like the pro-choicers saying Obama doesn’t encourage abortion, just choice.

 

[porthos11]

An illegitiamte killing is an intrinsic evil. A justified killing is not. The death penalty is a type of killing. The gratuitous use of the death penalty is a murder, an intrinsic evil. Just like abortion. QED

Happy to explain further if you need additional clarification.

Without taking a stand on the issue for this particular thread, I’m afraid this particualar construct is to me a form of begging the question (assuming the fact you are trying to prove, e.g. “gratuitious use of the death penalty is murder”) and cannot stand as a logical argument.