Pope Seeks End to Death Penalty

[Roy5]

Generally, the death penalty should be avoided. There have been too many instances in which prisoners on ‘death row’ were found to be innocent.

There occasionally is a case, however, where the proof is absolute and the crime or crimes were heinous almost beyond description, such as serial killers. In such rare instances it would seem that the only just decision is capital punishment. How do such deliberate, serial killers deserve a sheltered life, three meals a day, and likely TV, books, etc., paid by us, the taxpayers, for the rest of their lives? The only exceptions in such unusual situations might be if the families of the victims call for life imprisonment instead.

 A case in point. In Connecticut two home invaders ruthelessly raped a young teenager, murdered her and her mother and sister, tied up all three, then set the house on fire. The father was beaten badly but escaped to the basement and survived. He, too, generally doesn't favor the death penalty but considers this crime so outrageous that it is appropriate. The father of his murdered wife, a retired Methodist minister, who also is grandfather of the two murdered teenage girls, also disapproves of the death penalty generally, but he too sees it as appropriate under such circumstances.

  I tend to agree with the victims' husband, father and grandfather. It makes at least as much sense as sending young men and women to some foreign land to kill other men and women (and children, too) that they don't know - often civilians who have done them no harm.

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[stanczyk]

So, you think it is BETTER to put someone locked away with little to no human contact, excercise, etc… for the rest of his life? I almost think that executing him is more humane.

Can we please drop this absurd pretense that capital punishment is somehow an act of mercy. The “mercykilling” argument is bankrupt when it is applied to euthanasia, and it is even worse to attempt to argue it with respect to the death penalty.

Why do so many Catholics work so hard to justify the death penalty? In flagrant contradiction of our Holy Father, no less? What is with this rebellious, anti-life attitude?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Can we please drop this absurd pretense that capital punishment is somehow an act of mercy. The “mercykilling” argument is bankrupt when it is applied to euthanasia, and it is even worse to attempt to argue it with respect to the death penalty.

Why do so many Catholics work so hard to justify the death penalty? In flagrant contradiction of our Holy Father, no less? What is with this rebellious, anti-life attitude?

Thanks for making assumptions.

 

[stanczyk]

There occasionally is a case, however, where the proof is absolute and the crime or crimes were heinous almost beyond description, such as serial killers. In such rare instances it would seem that the only just decision is capital punishment. How do such deliberate, serial killers deserve a sheltered life, three meals a day, and likely TV, books, etc., paid by us, the taxpayers, for the rest of their lives? The only exceptions in such unusual situations might be if the families of the victims call for life imprisonment instead.

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They deserve to be “sheltered life,[have] three meals a day” because they are human beings. They have human dignity. Deterrence and punishment are not considerations to the Catholic conscience. The real question is whether or not the death penalty is necessary to protect society, if there is no other way to contain a threat than to kill the person who is presenting the threat. This might acceptable in, for example, Biblical times when incarceration was simply not a practical option to contain the most violent criminal. But in modern times, incarceration methods are available to contain even the most dangerous criminals, and the death penalty is never justifiable.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Can we please drop this absurd pretense that capital punishment is somehow an act of mercy. The “mercykilling” argument is bankrupt when it is applied to euthanasia, and it is even worse to attempt to argue it with respect to the death penalty.

Why do so many Catholics work so hard to justify the death penalty? In flagrant contradiction of our Holy Father, no less? What is with this rebellious, anti-life attitude?

 

[Roy5]

I assume that those who oppose the death penalty in every situation also oppose war under all conditions. If we’re talking about the sanctity of life, what about the millions killed by war - today, mostly civilians? Even most soldiers who die are basically innocent. They are being patriots in their respectivg countries - or often drafted against their will.

Yes, we should take a stand against the death penalty except in cases of heinous murders. If these killers are to be judged ultimately, I'll leave that up to God. People can lose their right to live if they wantonly and viciously and deliberately go about murdering people. 

 This, by the way, represents a change in my own attitude. I guess I'm getting old, but giving mass murderers board and room, and likely other benefits as the years roll by, isn't my idea of justice. The only consistent position is that of Quakers, Mennonites and others who reject violence - period. I admire that consistency, and if only all the world would adopt it what a wonderful world we would have. 

  Unfortunately, history shows that Christians spent a lot of years killing one another, all convinced that they were on God's side. I recall a student years ago. She told how her grandfather in Cologne, Germany, went down into the basement as Allied troops moved closer. What was he doing? Saying the rosary, convinced that Mary surely would intervene and help Hitler drive the Allies back! He was quite convinced that Hitler was going to save civilization from the Communists in the East and the corrupt plutocrats in the West!

God bless the peacemakers!

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

Can we please drop this absurd pretense that capital punishment is somehow an act of mercy. The “mercykilling” argument is bankrupt when it is applied to euthanasia, and it is even worse to attempt to argue it with respect to the death penalty.

Why do so many Catholics work so hard to justify the death penalty? In flagrant contradiction of our Holy Father, no less? What is with this rebellious, anti-life attitude?

Why are the unfaithful Catholics, who otherwise despise the Holy Father, why are they so willing to affirm the Holy Father in this?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Why are the unfaithful Catholics, who otherwise despise the Holy Father, why are they so willing to affirm the Holy Father in this?

You know who’s life I am MORE in favor of? The potential victims of the murderers that still pose a threat to society, because we have yet to devise a way to neutralize them. When we create a way to thoroughly contain a dangerous criminal and ensure that he is not a threat to others, directly or indirectly, I will be totally in favor of eliminating the death penalty. That has not happened yet, anywhere. Until that day happens, I will take the Pope’s comments with this context in mind.

 

[Birdpreacher]

You know who’s life I am MORE in favor of? The potential victims of the murderers that still pose a threat to society, because we have yet to devise a way to neutralize them. When we create a way to thoroughly contain a dangerous criminal and ensure that he is not a threat to others, directly or indirectly, I will be totally in favor of eliminating the death penalty. That has not happened yet, anywhere. Until that day happens, I will take the Pope’s comments with this context in mind.

We have yet to make anything 100% danger proof. Innocent people die in mines, innocent people die using weedwhackers. Why have such a high threshold all of a sudden for life imprisonment?

 

[estesbob]

Why are the unfaithful Catholics, who otherwise despise the Holy Father, why are they so willing to affirm the Holy Father in this?

They generally try and create a moral equivalency between supporting abortion and supporting the death penalty which, in their mind, allows them to rationalize supportng pro-abortion canidates

 

[stanczyk]

Why are the unfaithful Catholics, who otherwise despise the Holy Father, why are they so willing to affirm the Holy Father in this?

I’m not aware that any unfaithful Catholics are involved in this discussion.

As for myself, I follow the Church’s teachings on life whether it’s euthanasia, abortion or the death penalty. I don’t cherry pick. They all flow from the same pro-life principle.

Now, are cherry-picking Catholics-- the ones who oppose abortion but support the death penalty, or vice versa- are they unfaithful? I can’t say, that’s for God to judge.

 

[stanczyk]

We have yet to make anything 100% danger proof. Innocent people die in mines, innocent people die using weedwhackers. Why have such a high threshold all of a sudden for life imprisonment?

A very astute observation, birdpreacher.

 

[stanczyk]

I assume that those who oppose the death penalty in every situation also oppose war under all conditions.

Not at all. The fact of the matter is that the death penalty cannot be justified in modern conditions, but the this does not preclude the possibility of Just War. Whether a war is justified is a separate consideration subject to a different analysis.

 

[Roy5]

I guess the sanctity of life applies when it involves a murderer, but not when it involves thousands and even millions, most of them civilians, in a war. Then, apparently, the lives of these victims are not sacred but are secondary to a variety of political and such considerations.

 It seems to me that if we oppose abortion absolutely, and oppose capital punishment absolutely, the same sanctity of life argument should make us oppose war absolutely. Think of all the innocents who died at Pearl Harbor or Warsaw, at Dresden or Nagasaki. Maybe if we truly placed our trust in God, followed the Sermon the Mount and committed ourselves to non-violence, humanity would benefit. When it has been tried in recent world history - led by Gandhi and King - it seemed to work, thanks to the courage of those two great men and others who, like them, were prepared to lay down their lives rather than use violence. 

  But perhaps I am naive, too influenced by the teachings of Christ and not realistic. It would be exciting, though, to try Christianity to see if it really works.

 

[stanczyk]

I guess the sanctity of life applies when it involves a murderer, but not when it involves thousands and even millions, most of them civilians, in a war. Then, apparently, the lives of these victims are not sacred but are secondary to a variety of political and such considerations.

 It seems to me that if we oppose abortion absolutely, and oppose capital punishment absolutely, the same sanctity of life argument should make us oppose war absolutely. Think of all the innocents who died at Pearl Harbor or Warsaw, at Dresden or Nagasaki. Maybe if we truly placed our trust in God, followed the Sermon the Mount and committed ourselves to non-violence, humanity would benefit. When it has been tried in recent world history - led by Gandhi and King - it seemed to work, thanks to the courage of those two great men and others who, like them, were prepared to lay down their lives rather than use violence. 

  But perhaps I am naive, too influenced by the teachings of Christ and not realistic. It would be exciting, though, to try Christianity to see if it really works.

I take it you are not familiar with Catholic just war theory. I am stepping out the door to Immaculate Conception Mass right now, but I will be more than happy to respond to this with a full explication of just war when I get back.

God bless!

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

They generally try and create a moral equivalency between supporting abortion and supporting the death penalty which, in their mind, allows them to rationalize supportng pro-abortion canidates

And allows them to choose to live in darkness.

 

[estesbob]

Appears it is time to post this again:

*Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. **There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

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***Pope Benedict XVI

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[Roy5]

Yes, I know the ‘Just War’ argument. Sadly, everybody who fights considers their war a just war. Hitler and Mussolini, baptized Catholics both, saw World War II as just, even a war to save western civilization. The Allies, of course, saw the war as just from their viewpoint. The Pope, an Italian in Rome, tried to stay neutral, so I guess we never knew whether it was a just war or not - and/or who was just.

 Norwich in his recent book on the history of the Papacy, claims that Pius XII was so afraid of Bolshevism and its hatred for religion that he did not stand up to Hitler and Mussolini as he should have.

 I'm not sure that the 'Just War' theory is very helpful human nature being what it is. It's too subjective even though it sets down supposed conditions that make a just war. Over hundreds of years that the theory has been around, I don't recall that it ever averted a war. Maybe. We certainly had a lot of wars, many waged by Catholic monarchs. Was Mussolini's attack on Ethiopia back around 1936 a just war? I seem to remember that the Pope may have blessed that one. Bringing Christianity to darkness Africa? Actually Ethiopia already was mostly Christian. Of course, maybe my memory is flawed, but it seems to me that Pius XII gave his okay to that invasion.

 I am not an absolute pacifist, but I certainly tip my hat to the Quakers, the Mennonites and a host of peace groups  - Protestant, Catholic and otherwise - who don't horse around. They simply say: "We will not involve ourselves in blessing the murder of innocent people through the instruments of war." Hurrah for them - and may God bless them.

 

[ringil]

You realize that confining a person to limited or no social contact for extended periods of time is tantamount to torture, right?

Really most of those who say this are what folks around here would calls “far Left” so why give their opinion any weight in this matter.

I lean left and I certainly wouldn’t define extended solitary confinement as torture. Psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners work in these facilities and feel comfortable with solitary confinement.

When an indevidual commits the most grave offenses they forego certain rights and priviledges of the greater community.

Incidentally, research has shown no long-term effects from extended isolation. There is some psycho-social disturbance certainly but passes in a short period of time.

 

[bbarrick8383]

m.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/solitaryconfinement/