Pope Seeks End to Death Penalty

[Langdell]

Let’s try it this way:

The CCC makes reference to some situation where the death penalty may be used when “this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Can you give a concrete example? If you must use Biblical times to come up with an example . . . well, so be it. But, I was hoping for something a bit closer to our time. (And as an aside, I’m not looking for an American example – it could be in the jungles of Brazil, or sub-Saharan Africa if you’d like. Middle ages, perhaps?

VC

What comes to my mind when I read this part of the CCC is a country that is in a state of near-anarchy such that it’s practically impossible to keep someone in prison for more than a few days. I guess Somalia would be one example.

 

[stanczyk]

What comes to my mind when I read this part of the CCC is a country that is in a state of near-anarchy such that it’s practically impossible to keep someone in prison for more than a few days. I guess Somalia would be one example.

Yeah, that might be a fair example, but even then the degree of danger presented by the prisoner would have to be extremely high.

 

[stanczyk]

Let’s try it this way:

The CCC makes reference to some situation where the death penalty may be used when “this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”

Can you give a concrete example? If you must use Biblical times to come up with an example . . . well, so be it. But, I was hoping for something a bit closer to our time. (And as an aside, I’m not looking for an American example – it could be in the jungles of Brazil, or sub-Saharan Africa if you’d like. Middle ages, perhaps?

VC

Well, the Middle Ages weren’t exactly an advancement over Biblical times, at least not in the Western world.

I can’t even get behind the Somalia example, because even in a collapse state there have got to be possibilities besides death. What about some sort of extradition arrangement with a developed country to keep the dangerous prisoners locked up? There are always other options than death.

Keep in mind the Catechism only allows the death penalty when it is “only possible way” to protect society. That sets the bar pretty high.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

There are always other options than death.

Keep in mind the Catechism only allows the death penalty when it is “only possible way” to protect society. That sets the bar pretty high.

I’m not sure I follow. Do you mean that literally there are always other options than death?

“The only possible way” doesn’t strike me as a high bar, per se, rather a strict requirement. But, what I am asking, is since the CCC contemplates such a situation – can someone give me an example of such a situation and how it would look. What would happen?

Thanks,
VC

 

[stanczyk]

I’m not sure I follow. Do you mean that literally there are always other options than death?

“The only possible way” doesn’t strike me as a high bar, per se, rather a strict requirement. But, what I am asking, is since the CCC contemplates such a situation – can someone give me an example of such a situation and how it would look. What would happen?

Thanks,
VC

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Why do you think you’re having such a hard time coming up with an example? Death is practically never the “only possible way.” There are always other options.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Well, it’s impossible to give an example of the death penalty being morally permissible in the modern day, because there are other methods available to defend society, therefore the death penalty is always murder in the modern day.

.

Wrong. Once again you defy Church teaching with opinion.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Can someone give an example of such a case where the only way to protect human lives would be recourse to the death penalty? (CCC 2267)

Thanks,
VC

Let’s say a man has committed several rapes, murders and child molestations in a small African village. Since they may not be able to incarcerate him and his release would likey cause harm to others he could be put to death.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

The question, again, is can someone give an example of when the death penalty is necessary?

The CCC says that “today” it is “rare” if “not practically non-existent”. This leaves three avenues open to us, as far as I can see: give an example of “yesteryear” (i.e. not “today”); give an example of the “rare” case; or give an example of the “NOT practically non-existent”.

If we say that there is, never was, and never can be a case, then I’m a bit puzzled by this section of the Catechism.

Thanks for sticking with me folks,
VC

 

[stanczyk]

The question, again, is can someone give an example of when the death penalty is necessary?

The CCC says that “today” it is “rare” if “not practically non-existent”. This leaves three avenues open to us, as far as I can see: give an example of “yesteryear” (i.e. not “today”); give an example of the “rare” case; or give an example of the “NOT practically non-existent”.

If we say that there is, never was, and never can be a case, then I’m a bit puzzled by this section of the Catechism.

Thanks for sticking with me folks,
VC

“Practically nonexistent” means just that, that in practice these cases simply do not exist. The Catechism states clearly that there must be no other option to protect society. It is always possible to find some alternative to incarcerate a dangerous prisoner rather than execution, even if this is challenging, it is still possible. This is why the Blessed John Paul II stated that these cases are practically nonexistent.

It just does not happen in practice, there is always another way to deal with a dangerous criminal than execution.

 

[iamrefreshed]

“Practically nonexistent” means just that, that in practice these cases simply do not exist. The Catechism states clearly that there must be no other option to protect society. It is always possible to find some alternative to incarcerate a dangerous prisoner rather than execution, even if this is challenging, it is still possible. This is why the Blessed John Paul II stated that these cases are practically nonexistent.

It just does not happen in practice, there is always another way to deal with a dangerous criminal than execution.

No, that is not what it means but go ahead and keep offer your opinion as Catholic teaching.

 

[Debora123]

Why do so many Catholics here get so upset and form such denial when they realize we have the second pope in a row speaking out vehemently against the death penalty?? Is it because they feel guilty and are trying to justify supporting it when the most high earthly leader of their own Church is so against it?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Ok, let’s assume arguendo that today it is non-existent (everywhere?)

What about a concrete example yesterday or tomorrow?

VC

 

[iamrefreshed]

Why do so many Catholics here get so upset and form such denial when they realize we have the second pope in a row speaking out vehemently against the death penalty?? Is it because they feel guilty and are trying to justify supporting it when the most high earthly leader of their own Church is so against it?

Some Catholics get upset when other Catholics state that the CCC is wrong.

The Pope can always state ex cathedra that we are obliged to believe the death penalty is immoral. Has he?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Why do so many Catholics here get so upset and form such denial when they realize we have the second pope in a row speaking out vehemently against the death penalty?? Is it because they feel guilty and are trying to justify supporting it when the most high earthly leader of their own Church is so against it?

Debora,

This kind of thing isn’t limited to the death penalty. People sometime get upset when someone proposes as true something that is false, or false something that is true regarding other areas of Church teaching.

Sometimes people get upset even in good faith when they are challenged to change a long held view of something.

VC

 

[stanczyk]

Ok, let’s assume argguendo that today it is non-existent (everywhere?)

What about a concrete example yesterday or tomorrow?

VC

You would have to go to some pretty extreme hypotheticals. There would have to be no possibility of incarceration or any other alternative to protect society.

So perhaps an ancient nomadic tribe, at a time when there simply was no incarceration, it could have been permissible to execute dangerous criminals as the only way to keep them from being a threat to society.

 

[stanczyk]

Why do so many Catholics here get so upset and form such denial when they realize we have the second pope in a row speaking out vehemently against the death penalty?? Is it because they feel guilty and are trying to justify supporting it when the most high earthly leader of their own Church is so against it?

Probably better not to speculate as to the motivations of the people who promote the death penalty in defiance of the Church. The only thing to do is carefully and logically debunk their arguments, and thereby deprive them of their rationalizations. It may not change their minds, but by pointing out the inherent flaws in their arguments in support of the death penalty, we can prevent them from continue to distort the teaching of the Church on this issue, and hopefully bring some people around to the pro-life point of view.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Probably better not to speculate as to the motivations of the people who promote the death penalty in defiance of the Church. The only thing to do is carefully and logically debunk their arguments, and thereby deprive them of their rationalizations. It may not change their minds, but by pointing out the inherent flaws in their arguments in support of the death penalty, we can prevent them from continue to distort the teaching of the Church on this issue, and hopefully bring some people around to the pro-life point of view.

Having already given my stance as anti-death penalty you continue to offend faithful Catholics.

The death penalty is not in defiance of the Church. Why do you continue to lie so?

 

[Debora123]

Some Catholics get upset when other Catholics state that the CCC is wrong.

The Pope can always state ex cathedra that we are obliged to believe the death penalty is immoral. Has he?

So are you suggesting the Pope is stating that the CCC is wrong? And everyone who agrees with the pope about the death penalty is going against the CCC as well?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

You would have to go to some pretty extreme hypotheticals. There would have to be no possibility of incarceration or any other alternative to protect society.

So perhaps an ancient nomadic tribe, at a time when there simply was no incarceration, it could have been permissible to execute dangerous criminals as the only way to keep them from being a threat to society.

Can you flesh this out a bit more? Can you give me an example of a crime (with their guilt established, as the CCC says), then the procedures that would follow and then the execution, and the reason for execution, and when the execution would take place?

VC

 

[bbarrick8383]

You would have to go to some pretty extreme hypotheticals. There would have to be no possibility of incarceration or any other alternative to protect society.

So perhaps an ancient nomadic tribe, at a time when there simply was no incarceration, it could have been permissible to execute dangerous criminals as the only way to keep them from being a threat to society.

In that case why couldn’t they just cut off their hands? I mean we are talking about the possibility of confining someone to a cell where they would have almost zero human contact for the duration of their lives, if that were not possible is it then somehow more moral to physically mutilate them in such a way that they would then be incapacitated and no longer a threat to society?