Pope Seeks End to Death Penalty

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Evangelium Vitae was quoted in post 134 for one, but the discussion went on through the 400’s. To summarize, the issue revolves around the statement you highlighted, and whether that is a true premise or not. John Paul the Great, Pope Benedict XVI and no one has ever given one footnote, statistic, or, well, anything, to back up that premise. One would think that it is something no one ever thought of challenging, even though the whole application of the death penalty today hangs on what “today” actually is like.
🙂 Thanks. I appreciate you filling me in!

I would have to say that I believe that the Holy Father would have taken great care in choosing his words and assuring himself of the facts before writing that encyclical.
One side note on innocent blood being shed, the Church has never let that possibility be a reason to disqualify the death penalty. For 1950 years the ability to determine guilt has been much more difficult, during which time the Church supported (and had) a death penalty. Again, we should always strive for true justice, even if it is but one person wrongly convicted, either sentenced to death or life.
But being wrongly sentenced to life can be at least partiall rectified.

Being wrongly executed cannot.

Moreover, the chance of one innocence being disclosed posthumously would be much smaller than merel after serving a few years of an unjust sentence.

This would be because as an important witness yourself, you would be beyond consultation.

The police and judicial team would be loathe to admit killing an innocent man.

Other witnesses that had previously wrongly testified against you and bore false witness would be reluctant to admit having caused a death of an innocent man.

This means also that the REAL culprit would be at large.

And now innocent lives are at risk again.😦
 
Gospel of Life; papal encyclical of John Paul II
I don’t think you read your citation very carefully. The single point we were discussing is whether the Church recognizes a State’s moral right to employ capital punishment. The answer to that point is obviously yes as even your source shows. What it says is that, even though recourse to the death penalty should be rare, it exists. JPII did not place an absolute ban on its use (nor could he) and it is the State and the State alone which may exercise that right. The Church has always recognized that States have that authority.

Ender
 
Joe Hill:
Except that some correction (release, exoneration, compensation) can be made to the innocent wrongly convicted.
The dead stay dead unless the Lord wishes otherwise.
I would think that those sentenced to death are more likely to get out of a wrongful conviction than those sentenced to life because of all the safeguards we have in place and the anti-death penalty zealots (a few of them) who will leap to any end to get them out of a conviction. That in itself might be a reason to get rid of the death penalty.
 
I don’t think you read your citation very carefully. The single point we were discussing is whether the Church recognizes a State’s moral right to employ capital punishment.
With all respect, I think I did read it right. And I think that, although it says that such a right is theoretically moral, it is today practically nonexistent.

If you could tell me how else you would interpret the following “Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”?

Because I am at a loss as to how else that could be understood.😊
 
🙂 Thanks. I appreciate you filling me in!

I would have to say that I believe that the Holy Father would have taken great care in choosing his words and assuring himself of the facts before writing that encyclical.
I don’t know. I have tried over a decade to find one place, even one, where the Church has offered even a shred of support for this assumption. It is my own experience that causes me so heavily to doubt it. From time to time I have challenged other to search the documents and statements that are similar to the Holy Father’s assessment and see if anyone, anywhere has one tidbit of factual support for this premise.

At the very least, since it is a premise without support, one is free to deny the premise without compromise to doctrine. Thus, I can freely accept the Holy Father’s teaching, without agreeing with his conclusion. ** If** we lived in such a society, then the death penalty would not be needed to protect use.
 
With all respect, I think I did read it right. And I think that, although it says that such a right is theoretically moral, it is today practically nonexistent.
I think you’ve forgotten the context in which I made the comment. You raised this issue:

I find it very hard to understand people that express a distrust of big government but are willing to hand to the state the legal power to kill.

My response to this was that it is the Church who recognizes that this right belongs to States. It isn’t that the Church has handed the State the legal power to kill, rather she acknowledges that God has granted them this power.

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. (Catechism of Trent)

The particular issue raised was whether we were “willing to hand to the state the legal power to kill.” I was pointing out that it was God himself who granted them that power.

Ender
 
Thus, I can freely accept the Holy Father’s teaching, without agreeing with his conclusion.
This is internally contradictory. The teaching of the pope and the Blessed John Paul II are the conclusions with which you disagree. You cannot accept the Holy Father’s teaching without agreeing with his conclusion.
 
This is internally contradictory. The teaching of the pope and the Blessed John Paul II are the conclusions with which you disagree. You cannot accept the Holy Father’s teaching without agreeing with his conclusion.
No it is not and yes I can.

Doctrine is not application. Theology 101.
 
No it is not and yes I can.

Doctrine is not application. Theology 101.
If that sits well with your conscience, then all is well.🙂

I would only pass on what I learned from a very wise man; where you find it most difficult to come terms with Church teaching is where you are challenged most to explore the validity of your own beliefs.

God bless.
 
If that sits well with your conscience, then all is well.🙂

I would only pass on what I learned from a very wise man; where you find it most difficult to come terms with Church teaching is where you are challenged most to explore the validity of your own beliefs.

God bless.
Absolutely! It is something that I totally believe to be true. Now while the state of society today is not a teaching of the Church, my respect for the Great John Paul and the Holy Father are such that I will never cease to explore this issue. Even the prudential judgement, the application of doctrine, that is, of our shepherds is of great value. One should never take disagreement, which is allowed, lightly. Additionally, the state of incarcerating prisoners in America(in my case) is something very near to me.
 
Absolutely! It is something that I totally believe to be true. Now while the state of society today is not a teaching of the Church, my respect for the Great John Paul and the Holy Father are such that I will never cease to explore this issue. Even the prudential judgement, the application of doctrine, that is, of our shepherds is of great value. One should never take disagreement, which is allowed, lightly. Additionally, the state of incarcerating prisoners in America(in my case) is something very near to me.
May God bless you.

And may God bless and keep our Holy Father as he and the Church seek to make this world a place free from violence and death.🙂
 
"*Pope Benedict XVI voiced support Wednesday for political actions around the world aimed at eliminating the death penalty, reflecting his stance as an opponent of capital punishment.

He made the comments during his weekly public audience to participants at a meeting being promoted by the Catholic Sant’Egidio Community on the theme “No Justice without Life.*”

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pope-seeks-end-death-penalty-15056658#.TteRv9U7Isk
Romans 13:1-6 states that those in authority have rule over us and weild the sword of justice to punish evil doers. Also, capitol punishment was given to Christ which allowed him to shed his blood for our sins and fulfill prophesy. In a round about way, even Jesus condoned the death penaly. Uless the Pope is more holy than Jesus, abolishing the death penalty won’t be done until Jesus establishes his millennial kingdom in Jerusalem.

The Bible states that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. If a person chooses to kill someone, should he not expect that to be done unto him? Would the Pope have in a backhanded way condoned the Holocaust by not having the killers of multitudes be executed for their deeds? To sustain the life of people who deliberately murder others in a way means the life of a killer is more valuable than the life of his victim. I call killers Godplayers because they determine who should live and die. To sustain the life of a Godplayer means his life is more valuable than the life of his victim even if the death brings about the premature deaths of others like family members of the victim. The Godplayer may live to be 100 while the families of the ones he chose to kill die years before he does.

Godplayers become living memorials to their victims. Their victims lie in the grave prematurely while the state sustains the life of the Godplayer. Would not the person who kills the Pope deserve to be executed or would the death of the Pope be acceptable since a Godplayer committed the act of life removal? Do we not execute rabid animals or those that are too vicious to be left alive? Or do we play with such animals? If a person chooses to play God, he should be put to the test. Can he rise from the grave in three days as God the Son did to prove that he has the authority to end lives or spare them?
 
Would not the person who kills the Pope deserve to be executed or would the death of the Pope be acceptable since a Godplayer committed the act of life removal?
The murderer ought to be punished, but killing him or her needs not be the only choice. Lifelong incarceration would be adequate.
Do we not execute rabid animals or those that are too vicious to be left alive?
Animals are not “executed.” Who determines who is too vicious “to be left alive?”
If a person chooses to play God, he should be put to the test. Can he rise from the grave in three days as God the Son did to prove that he has the authority to end lives or spare them?
You are speaking of juries and judges who impose the death penalty, I presume. I find that an odd test to be made of our criminal judicial system.
 
snip I would only pass on what I learned from a very wise man; where you find it most difficult to come terms with Church teaching is where you are challenged most to explore the validity of your own beliefs.
That is an excellent point.

It appears very difficult for the last two Popes to come to terms with the Church teaching for the past 2000 years.

Somehow, the well known teachings of the Church supportive of the death penalty, for 2000 years, have changed their character.

The Church teachings used to be based upon just retribution, justice – moral considerations – supported by biblical teachings, theology, Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc., with that 2000 year history in tradition.

Since 1995, we have a teaching based in the utilitarian concept of “defense of society”, which conflicts with 2000 years of teaching and which does not have a moral foundation, but is a utilitarian concern founded in penology.

The amended CCC says that such examples of self defense are so rare as to be non existant, indicating that “defense of society” is a standard so rare that banning executions is appropriate.

Well, no, the examples of living murderers and other unjust aggressors harming and murdering again are likely too many to count, meaning “defense of scoiety” is a standard by which executions should be increased, not decreased.

How the Church turned this upside down, morally and factually, is a mystery,
 
That is an excellent point.

It appears very difficult for the last two Popes to come to terms with the Church teaching for the past 2000 years.
How so?
The Church teachings used to be based upon just retribution, justice – moral considerations – supported by biblical teachings, theology, Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc., with that 2000 year history in tradition.
The Church hasn’t forbidden the use of capital punishment. It admits circumstances where it may be used, though in narrow circumwstances.
Well, no, the examples of living murderers and other unjust aggressors harming and murdering again are likely too many to count, meaning “defense of scoiety” is a standard by which executions should be increased, not decreased.
Too many to count? Have you any statistics supporting your assertion?
 
The Church hasn’t forbidden the use of capital punishment. It admits circumstances where it may be used, though in narrow circumwstances.

Too many to count? Have you any statistics supporting your assertion?
No, the Church says that the use of the death penalty, as “defense of society” occurs in circumstances, so rarely, it’s use should be practically non existant, based upon prison security.

The last two Popes agree, both calling to end the death penalty, meaning, they personally, find it to be no defense of society.

They have no clue of what they speak.

Yes, additonal crimes by unjust agressors are impossible to count.

Our judgements in releasing prisoners is astoundingly bad and will continue to be.

"Studies by the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that 94 percent of state prisoners in 1991 had committed a violent crime or been incarcerated or on probation before. Of these prisoners, 45 percent had committed their latest crimes while free on probation or parole. When “supervised” on the streets, they inflicted at least 218,000 violent crimes, including 13,200 murders and 11,600 rapes (more than half of the rapes against children). (“Prisons are a Bargain, by Any Measure”, brookings.edu/opinions/1996/0116crime_john-j–diiulio–jr.aspx)

Escapes, lapses in security, violence in prisons as well as many other problems are simply at astoundinghigh levels, as can be found, everyday, with new GOOGLE searchs.

2267 "Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’ John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae 56).

The Catechism and EV are, hereby, using the secular standard of penal security as a means to outweigh justice, balance, redress, reformation, expiation and prior Church teachings. 2267 cannot stand.

This is such a poorly considered prudential judgement as to negate its “prudential” moniker.

Let’s look at “the means at the State’s disposal”.

All villages, towns, cities, states, territories, countries and broad government unions have widely varying degrees of police protections and prison security. Murderers escape, harm and murder in prison and are given such leeway as to murder and/or harm, again, because of “mercy” to the murderer, leniency and irresponsibility to murderers, who are released or otherwise given the opportunity to cause catastrophic losses to the innocent when such innocents are harmed and murdered by unjust aggressors. (4)

Incarcerated prisoners plan murders, escapes and all types of criminal activity, using proxies or cell phones in directing free world criminal activities. All of this is well known by all, with the apparent exception of the authors of the Catechism. (4)

Some countries are so idiotic, reckless and callous as to allow terrorists to sign pledges that they will not harm again and then they are released, bound only by their word, a worthless pledge resulting in more innocent blood. (4)
It has always been so.

The Catechism, as does EV, avoids the many realities whereby the unjust aggressor has too many opportunities to harm again. The authors of the Catechism appear to have no grasp of reality? (4)
  1. a) “Prisons and the Education of Terrorists”, Ian M. Cuthbertson, WORLD POLICY JOURNAL, FALL 2004
“The use of prisons as a means of recruiting new members into terrorist organizations while providing advanced training to existing members is hardly a new phenomenon. FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS (my emphasis) , European countries have been beset by a variety of nationalist and leftist terrorist groups, some of them highly sophisticated organizations with large rosters of combat and support personnel.”

" . . . terrorist groups were able to retain a large degree of cohesion within the prison setting, which they discovered to be a favorable environment for training members in new skills and planning future operations."

“Al-Qaeda and its network of associated organizations has taken full advantage of the relatively lax practices in European, and even some American, prisons. The pool of potential recruits is vast.”

In 10/2003 , " . . . John Pistole, the FBI’s executive assistant director of counterterrorism/counterintelligence, called U.S. correctional institutions a “viable venue for radicalization and recruitment” for al-Qaeda. Harley Lappin, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, sees the bloated prison population of disgruntled and violent inmates as being ‘particularly vulnerable to recruitment by terrorists.’ "

contd
 
contd

b) “Hell in the heart of paradise”
“The Bali bombers were allowed to preach to the prison population, radicalising scores of impressionable young Muslims, as well as fund and organise subsequent attacks from their cells.”
4:40PM Monday November 23, 2009 Source: AAP , tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/hell-i…radise-3174543

c) Anwar al Awlaki, a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, a native-born U.S. citizen who left the United States in 2002, was arrested in 2006 with a small group of suspected al-Qaida militants in the capital San’a. He was released more than a year later after signing a pledge he will not break the law or leave the country. He is now missing and encourages violence against Americans from his website, Awlaki used his site to declare support for the Somali terrorist group, al-Shabaab and celebrated the acts of US Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, who murdered 13 and wounding 29 in a shooting spree. al Awlaki called upon other Muslim’s to duplicate those acts. “Radical imam praises alleged Fort Hood shooter”, Associated Press, 11/9/09, 6:19 pm ET news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/…t_hood_muslims

UPDATE: “New Evidence Suggests Radical Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Was an Overlooked Key Player in 9/11 Plot”, foxnews.com/politics/2011…key-player-11/

UPDATE: al-Awlaki killed in a CIA drone strike - nor more a living threat.

d) " . . . Today’s prison inmates are willing to pay up to $10,000 for a smartphone that can allow them to run a drug ring, stalk their prey—and maybe even escape."

" . . . Parchman Mississippi State Penitentiary . . . shocked everyone when it blocked more than 216,000 texts and 600 phone calls in a (SINGLE MONTH) from within the prison walls."

In the first 9 months of 2011, California seized 11,400 cellphones from criminals behind bars.

"Smartphones Are the New Prison Contraband, Daily Beast, 10/16/11
thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/16/smartphones-in-prison-new-contraband-allows-inmates-to-make-money.htm

e) 16 al Quaeda Escape in Jailbreak in Iraq
theage.com.au/world/alqae…0924-g4no.html

f) 23 escape from Yemen prison, 13 are al Quaeda
globalsecurity.org/securi…k_in_yemen.htm

g) Governor commutes 108 year sentence: Offender later murders 4 policemen, while on bond for two child rapes
google.com/hostednews/ap/…OLEwwD9CACTHG0

h) Repeat sex offender,“cripple” serving life, overpowers guards, escapes
blog.taragana.com/law/2009/11…ongoing-17934/

i) Officials “embarrassed” by Texas death row inmate escape, Houston Chronicle, November 06, 2005
policeone.com/corrections…inmate-escape/

“. . . Thompson claimed he had an appointment with his lawyer and was taken to a meeting room. However, the visitor was not Thompson’s attorney.” “After the visitor left, Thompson removed his handcuffs and his bright orange prison jumpsuit and got out of a prisoner’s booth that should have been locked. He then left wearing a dark blue shirt, khaki pants and white tennis shoes, carrying a fake identification badge and claiming to work for the Texas Attorney General’s office.” “This was 100 percent human error; that’s the most frustrating thing about it.” “There were multiple failures.” Trial jurors and victim’s relatives were terrified.

j) the Holy See could find these types of cases every day, seemingly, forever, if she looked. It seems likely that hundreds or thousands of innocents die, everyday, because of the irresponsibility of prison systems allowing unjust aggressors to harm and murder, again, in contradiction of the curious ignorance within EV and 2267.
 
The last two Popes agree, both calling to end the death penalty, meaning, they personally, find it to be no defense of society.
Rightly so.
They have no clue of what they speak.
I have no idea who you are, but I’d not be likely to consider your opinion as superior to that of our Popes.
Yes, additonal crimes by unjust agressors are impossible to count.
Robberies, thefts, murders, rapes? Your remark is void for vageness.
Our judgements in releasing prisoners is astoundingly bad and will continue to be.
You are citing 20 year old statistics.
Escapes, lapses in security, violence in prisons as well as many other problems are simply at astoundinghigh levels, as can be found, everyday, with new GOOGLE searchs.
You want to hang escapees?
2267 "Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’ [John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae 56).

The Catechism and EV are, hereby, using the secular standard of penal security as a means to outweigh justice, balance, redress, reformation, expiation and prior Church teachings. 2267 cannot stand.
You are free to reject it and any other Church teachings that bother you.
Incarcerated prisoners plan murders, escapes and all types of criminal activity, using proxies or cell phones in directing free world criminal activities. All of this is well known by all, with the apparent exception of the authors of the Catechism.
Fools have written the Catechism?
The Catechism, as does EV, avoids the many realities whereby the unjust aggressor has too many opportunities to harm again. The authors of the Catechism appear to have no grasp of reality?
Then the Catechism ought to go into the dustbin, and its authors put to sweeping floors?
In 10/2003 , " . . . John Pistole, the FBI’s executive assistant director of counterterrorism/counterintelligence, called U.S. correctional institutions a “viable venue for radicalization and recruitment” for al-Qaeda. Harley Lappin, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, sees the bloated prison population of disgruntled and violent inmates as being ‘particularly vulnerable to recruitment by terrorists.’
Now you’ve changed the topic from American criminals to Al-Qaida terrorists. Make up your mind.
[/quote]
 
c) Anwar al Awlaki, a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, a native-born U.S. citizen who left the United States in 2002, was arrested in 2006 with a small group of suspected al-Qaida militants in the capital San’a. He was released more than a year later after signing a pledge he will not break the law or leave the country. He is now missing and encourages violence against Americans from his website,
That’s not a hanging offense.
UPDATE: al-Awlaki killed in a CIA drone strike - nor more a living threat.
A solution not easily transferrable to the United States and its criminals.
the Holy See could find these types of cases every day, seemingly, forever, if she looked. It seems likely that hundreds or thousands of innocents die, everyday, because of the irresponsibility of prison systems allowing unjust aggressors to harm and murder, again, in contradiction of the curious ignorance within EV and 2267.
Then disregard anything you find offensive to you in the Catechism. Lots of folks do just that, and not only about the death penalty.
 
That is an excellent point.

It appears very difficult for the last two Popes to come to terms with the Church teaching for the past 2000 years.
I note that you are not Catholic. Perhaps it not best to come here and insult our Papa if you do not understand what he means to us. The two men you dismiss so blithely are extremely educated and intellegent men. No Catholic should take a dissenting view with them lightly. They are not “coming to terms with Church teaching”. That is the one thing they know far better than any of us. It is the application only that we can take issue with. Anything more, well defense of the Church should start at the beginning with the keys of Peter. The Apologetics Forum is the place for that.
 
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