Pope set to bring back Latin Mass in face of opposition (May 14 article from TimesOnline)

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Don’t take the thread off topic, folks. If you wish to discuss other issues please start a new thread. Thank you.
 
If PBXVI reinstates the Latin Mass,will it be the same as the 1962 Mass,the NO Mass of now but in Latin or a pre Vatican II form?

Personally I would love for Latin to return as the universal Language of the Church.But It would be nice if the parts that people say and the Homily were to remain in the vernucular language.Similar to the way the EWTN Mass is done,if that were possible.I would also like for the Missal to return to the pre VII outline.So it would be more accurate.Plus people would be able to follow along no matter where they were in the world.

According to catholic.com/ A Priest can already say the current rite of Mass in Latin without obtaining special permission.So why so much confussion on this?Why would any body need special permission,or how can a Bishop forbid it?

KeithL
 
KeithL said:
If PBXVI reinstates the Latin Mass,will it be the same as the 1962 Mass,the NO Mass of now but in Latin or a pre Vatican II form?

Personally I would love for Latin to return as the universal Language of the Church.But It would be nice if the parts that people say and the Homily were to remain in the vernucular language.Similar to the way the EWTN Mass is done,if that were possible.I would also like for the Missal to return to the pre VII outline.So it would be more accurate.Plus people would be able to follow along no matter where they were in the world.

According to catholic.com/ A Priest can already say the current rite of Mass in Latin without obtaining special permission.So why so much confussion on this?Why would any body need special permission,or how can a Bishop forbid it?

KeithL
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I doubt if there’d be such opposition as there is if the Pope were to extend the Latin NO or even the 1965 edition in its various vernaculars. It would appear that it is the 1962 (or pre-1962) edition that is causing a grave discomfort to many.
 
BobP123 said:
I doubt if there’d be such opposition as there is if the Pope were to extend the Latin NO or even the 1965 edition in its various vernaculars. It would appear that it is the 1962 (or pre-1962) edition that is causing a grave discomfort to many.
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Forgive me for some of my ignorance…I dont know much about the pre 1962 Mass.But I take it that it didnt have any vernucular, so I could see why alot of people would be against it.But if Coptic(Egyptian) Catholics,Jews, and Hindus can learn enough of their Liturgical languages,then I see no reason why we couldnt learn enough to follow along.

Personally,I’m more concerned with the sacred tradition/outline of the Mass itself than the language its said in.But still would love to see the liturgy done atleast in part in the language of the Rite,Latin in our case.

KeithL
 
Look folks, we had *dancing girls *leading the Entrance Procession at Mass in my So CA church last Sunday. Looking around church, I saw mostly grinning faces. American Catholics like this stuff. Anyone believing these people will support a return to the TLM in any form is standing too close to the incense. It just ain’t gonna happen and trad Catholics, especially those in the US, need to quit waiting for the Papal cavalry to arrive.

If BXVI orders the universal TLM indult, the US archbishops of the key archdiocese will do what they have done for decades; and continue to lead the American Church toward its eventual unification with liberal Protestantism.
 
KeithL said:
Forgive me for some of my ignorance…I dont know much about the pre 1962 Mass.But I take it that it didnt have any vernucular, so I could see why alot of people would be against it.
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Amongst a lot of other issues. Alleged anti-sematicism and sexism, loss of episcopal power, reduced chances of liturgical manipulation, tighter discipline, dislike of traditional music, and so forth. At least that’s the way I see it.
But if Coptic(Egyptian) Catholics,Jews, and Hindus can learn enough of their Liturgical languages,then I see no reason why we couldnt learn enough to follow along.
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Agreed.
Personally,I’m more concerned with the sacred tradition/outline of the Mass itself than the language its said in.But still would love to see the liturgy done atleast in part in the language of the Rite,Latin in our case.
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Nothing wrong with that statement. In fact, Vatican II specified that Latin remain in the liturgy.
 
DWPC said:
If BXVI orders the universal TLM indult, the US archbishops of the key archdiocese will do what they have done for decades; and continue to lead the American Church toward its eventual unification with liberal Protestantism.
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Right now I think the Pope is probably more concerned about the effects of his recent trip to South American Church where Catholics and ex-Catholics comprise 50% of the total Catholic Church. Many of the ex-Catholics there are now charismatic Protestants. Will they ever return to the Church?

As far as dancing girls are concerned, remember that one of them (Salome) was responsible for cutting off John the Baptist’s head. So be careful. 😃
 
DWPC said:
If BXVI orders the universal TLM indult, the US archbishops of the key archdiocese will do what they have done for decades; and continue to lead the American Church toward its eventual unification with liberal Protestantism.
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Supposedly, the universal indult will allow individual parishes make the determination of whether or not to have a TLM. Some Archbishops may continue to encourage the abuses you’ve seen, but it isn’t a nationwide concerted effort. There are a lot of good Bishops and priests out there. There are also people who are open to the traditional, but don’t have the choice. You shouldn’t judge the whole country based on SoCal.
 
DWPC said:
Look folks, we had *dancing girls *leading the Entrance Procession at Mass in my So CA church last Sunday. Looking around church, I saw mostly grinning faces. American Catholics like this stuff.
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Seeing things like this is so depressing to me 😦 What are our Bishops and Priests doing?
 
BobP123 said:
Right now I think the Pope is probably more concerned about the effects of his recent trip to South American Church where Catholics and ex-Catholics comprise 50% of the total Catholic Church. Many of the ex-Catholics there are now charismatic Protestants. Will they ever return to the Church?

**As far as dancing girls are concerned, remember that one of them (Salome) was responsible for cutting off John the Baptist’s head. So be careful. :**D
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There’s wisdom in preventing liturgical dance, then isn’t there? 👍
 
DWPC said:
Look folks, we had dancing girls leading the Entrance Procession at Mass in my So CA church last Sunday. Looking around church, I saw mostly grinning faces. American Catholics like this stuff. Anyone believing these people will support a return to the TLM in any form is standing too close to the incense.** It just ain’t gonna happen and trad Catholics, especially those in the US, need to quit waiting for the Papal cavalry to arrive.

If BXVI orders the universal TLM indult, the US archbishops of the key archdiocese will do what they have done for decades; and continue to lead the American Church toward its eventual unification with liberal Protestantism.
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Maybe in SoCal it isn’t really incense they are using? 🤷
 
BobP123 said:
Amongst a lot of other issues. Alleged anti-sematicism and sexism, loss of episcopal power, reduced chances of liturgical manipulation, tighter discipline, dislike of traditional music, and so forth. At least that’s the way I see it.

Nothing wrong with that statement. In fact, Vatican II specified that Latin remain in the liturgy.
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What anti semiticsm? Praying for them to convert? Thats not hate thats Love…😉

What Sexism? Following the Traditions set in the Bible,because thats the way God made it?

Loss of Episcopal power? Got me on that one…🤷

Reduced chances of liturgical manipulation and tighter discipline…Praise God!

Dislike of Traditional Music-Bah Humbug…Theres plenty of time outside of Mass for other types of Christian music,such as contempory,folk,rock,gospel,etc which I like some of myself.But dont want to see it during Mass,when we are supposed to be focused on The Most Holy Eucharist and being dignified and reverant.

Vatican II said Latin should remain…hmm thought so from what Ive read…

The only Latin here that I am aware is said during the Exposition at Adoration’s.😦
 
Just found this out about the Latin Mass:
Technically, this isn’t the exact 16th-century rite, but an adaptation of it. The indult that would be given across the board, like many Catholics are hoping for, will actually allow any priest to use the Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal.
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The main difference between that Missal and the one used around the time of the Council of Trent was Mass was
more or less not participated in by the laity. The acolytes (altar boys) were the ones who were dialoging with the priest during Mass at that point. In the 1930s, Pope Pius XI started experimenting with a Mass that allowed for the laity to participate more. By the time 1962 rolled around, and Pope Pius XII and
Blessed John XXIII made a few more changes here and there, there was enough laity participation in the Mass that they weren’t just sitting there doing nothing.
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And its sad that most new priest,especially in America dont know any church Latin or enough to Give a Latin Mass.
My solution make them learn it.👍
 
KeithL said:
What anti semiticsm? Praying for them to convert? Thats not hate thats Love…😉

What Sexism? Following the Traditions set in the Bible,because thats the way God made it?

Loss of Episcopal power? Got me on that one…🤷

Reduced chances of liturgical manipulation and tighter discipline…Praise God!

Dislike of Traditional Music-Bah Humbug…Theres plenty of time outside of Mass for other types of Christian music,such as contempory,folk,rock,gospel,etc which I like some of myself.But dont want to see it during Mass,when we are supposed to be focused on The Most Holy Eucharist and being dignified and reverant.

Vatican II said Latin should remain…hmm thought so from what Ive read…

The only Latin here that I am aware of being said, is during the Exposition at Adoration’s.😦
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KeithL said:
And its sad that most new priest,especially in America dont know any church Latin or enough to Give a Latin Mass. My solution make them learn it.
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The Pope agrees with you (emphasis mine): “Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.” (Sacramentum Caritatis, 62)
 
japhy said:
The Pope agrees with you (emphasis mine): “Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.” (Sacramentum Caritatis, 62)
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👍
I need to start learning my prayers in Latin…
 
KeithL-

I’ve attending both Pre and Post '62 Masses most of my life. I’m not sure I quite understand whats meant went people say there is no vernacular in these Masses.

Granted the overwhelming majorty of the Mass is in Latin. There is normally pause after the Gospel is read in Latin. The priest comes to the pulpit and re-reads the Reading and Gospel in English (since that’s the vernacular) and gives his homily before returning to the alter for the Credo. Sometimes for variously reasons this doesn’t happen but that is not the norm.
 
goofyjim said:
I love the TLM even though I don’t know Latin but let’s not alienate the new Catholics by doing away with the Novus Ordo. Personally I believe there should be some balance in between the two.
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I converted in 2005. I fell in love with the 1962 rite of Mass the first time I saw it, consequently before my conversion. I would hope that more would experience the Mass the way I did. Besides, I did not leave a fundamentalist background for another seemingly protestant community, but the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
 
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