Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

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So is there any news?

Was this a rumor planted and then basically forgotten by the Vatican?

Good thing I didn’t count my chickens before they hatched, I’d be eating scrambled eggs by now…
 
So is there any news?

Was this a rumor planted and then basically forgotten by the Vatican?

Good thing I didn’t count my chickens before they hatched, I’d be eating scrambled eggs by now…
No new news, but don’t scramble those eggs just yet. The latest from Rorate Caeli, as I read it, is that not much has changed this past week Wednesday, Thursday, Friday]. There is a document that makes the traditional Mass more available; it is in at least its third draft, and the Vatican bureaucracy continues to chew on it. Meanwhile members of the French hierarchy are expecting the release of such a document and are unhappy about it.

There are some details from earlier this month that I didn’t notice in this thread. If you would like to read about them second-hand instead of third-hand, go to Fr. Zuhlsdorf’s blog here, and scroll down to Fr. Franklyn’s comments. Someone who claims to have written one of the drafts of the *Motu Proprio *says that all Latin-rite priests will have the right to say the Traditional Latin Mass privately, but it is up to the pastor whether the TLM will be available to parishioners. A certain number of parishioners will have to request the TLM – perhaps 30, perhaps 100. Bishops will be able to forbid individual priests from celebrating the TLM, but they must put their reasons in writing and their decisions can be appealed. Even if a pastor chooses to allow the TLM, most of the Masses offered must still be the Novus Ordo.

The expected announcement date seems to be sometime in November. We’ll see how much of this is real. I believe it :yup: , but then, I pretty much believed the rumors last spring, too :nope: .

:gopray:
 
While B16 is older than I am, I wager I’m older than most who have posted here, as I still remember my latin responses as an altar server. I do miss the quiet comforting atmosphere of the TLM where one could be left undisturbed and concentrate on personal worship of God, and not have to deal with handshaking and holding hands. Back then there was a rapport between worshipers, because we understood and respected each one’s spiritual journey even in a strange country. Back then we were not herded to recieve communion, and I think we were more serious and aware of what we were doing in that reception. Back then the nuns wore their habits, the seminaries were filled, and the Priesthood was looked upon with great respect and they really deserved it.
I remember. The bishop of my diocese has authorized the TLM at one church in the area. That mass is held every second and fourth Sunday and if there is a fifth Sunday in the month, it is also said. It is in one of the churches in the city where I live, albeit 35 miles away. I have been there twice in recent months. Having been in the choir for many years, I have not forgotten the latin responses or the singing of the Gloria, etc. I have nothing against the NO as that is what we have at my home parish. But an occasional TLM has been uplifting for me. JMO. I see no need to bash either of the forms of the Mass. To each his own. I did not get the impression that it was intended to require TLM exclusively, but to make it more available to people.
 
On Tuesday, Rorate Caeli quoted Cardinal Ricard as saying that the “motu proprio will be the object of various consultations”, and reported that the French Newspaper Le Figaro says that members of the Ecclesia Dei commission will rework the text regarding the liberalization of the Tridentine Latin Mass.

Today Rorate Caeli reports that two Italian news sites are saying that that the Vatican authorities involved with the document will meet next Wednesday, November 15. They mention release dates for the motu proprio ranging from Christmas to the start of the New Year.
 
Posted today in Rorate Caeli:

From a news dispatch by the Italian news agency ANSA:

“The publication of the Motu Proprio from the Pope which will liberalize the celebration of the Latin Mass according to the Missal of Saint Pius V is close.” Who affirmed this was Cardinal Jorge Arturo Medina Estevez, member of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, which met this morning to discuss the liberalization of the Mass in Latin. “We studied the document with tranquility,” the Cardinal affirmed. “We discussed [it] together for over 4 hours and to make some corrections to the text of the Motu Proprio.” The next step belongs to Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos (president of the commission), who will present the text to Benedict XVI. There shall perhaps be another meeting of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, Medina added. Another member of the [Commission], the Cardinal of Lyon [sic → Bordeaux], Jean Pierre [sic] Ricard, did not wish to make any comment, underlining that “[he] is bound to the pontifical secret”.

…(Sources: in French; in Italian)
 
While I have never seen or heard a TLM, I would welcome a wider availability, even if I never do go to one. Likely not every parish needs it, but I would think at least every major city should have it available on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. That is just an opinion.

As to those that blame the down-spiral in so much of the Church on the change from the TLM to the NO, I don’t think that is at all correct. While the timing is very similar, I don’t think you have the correct cause identified. After all, you can’t blame the change in the mass for the giant changes in culture, government, family, education, etc that happened at that time period. Ultimately there had to have been a serious break down in the way the faith was handed down, prior to the change in the mass. If everyone had been properly instructed regarding the faith and the mass, I doubt it would have been accepted.

My personal theory is that it was probably a back to back global depression and a world war that simply applied too much strain, for too long, on families and all the institutions that make society function. I think the change that became visible in the 60s and 70s had its hidden roots going to those earlier times. This isn’t to say recovery wasn’t possible, after all societies have come back from worse. Yet, there was also an influence from many misleading ideologies, and so radical change became the norm across all parts of society. Of those things that did not change, some were destroyed, others remain still as hollow shells of a once grand past.

As to the Latin itself, I doubt most understood it. Many likely new the responses, in the form of memorization. Even the vernacular translations would be easy to memorize. However, the number that actually new Latin well enough to really understand the complexity and nuance in the liturgy was probably quite small. I took Latin in high school, and I am currently taking it in college. I can attest that Latin is by no means a simple or easy language. I suspect if I went to a Latin mass I would understand at best one word in four by hearing. As to being able to actually translate mentally, that is well beyond my ability. Simple greetings and such I can do. Study of Latin today is almost entirely of the written form. Only a small handful of places teach Latin like a living language and thus use its spoken form.

I can also tell you that Liturgical Latin is a late development, relatively. It was sort of a simplified, distilled form of Latin, then watered down some by introduction of local dialectic/vernacular variations. It is still an impressive language, but it is not quite the same as Latin of the classical authors (which was a somewhat artificial form for high literary purposes). The most readily observed change from classical Latin to liturgical Latin, is a shift toward Italian sounding pronunciation.

In classical Latin for example, the letter V would be pronounced more like the W in English (which is oddly the reverse of German, from what I understand).
 
rpp

If you believe that Sacred Tradition was in some way abolished or overturned, then you have yourself, and the Church, in a very odd circumstance. If the TLM was in fact a part of Sacred Tradition, such that it was an infallible teaching of the Church, then it could not be changed without destroying the entire concept of infallible teaching authority.

Hence most people see that while the essentials of the mass are protected by Sacred Tradition, that not all of the particulars of the mass are so protected. To back that up, you can look to the variations that were present before the NO in the various other rites that are acknowledged as having valid liturgy.

Not everyone sees it that way of coarse. Certain groups hold that the TLM is in fact almost entirely within Sacred Tradition, and thus could not, can not, and never will be open for change in any real way. I don’t want to go down the road of debating this point, I am simply pointing out that we must very carefully consider which part of the Church’s tradition and authority relates to the mass.

prv

Deacons? I didn’t know the Catholic Church had deacons! Wow!

In seriousness, what was the state of the permanent diaconate in the pre-Vatican II times? I was under the impression that the suppression (at least in much of the US) of the permanent diaconate was the norm before Vatican II, and that it has only since begun to be restored.

Oh, to give everyone an example of why there should still be hope for good solid masses, let me offer the following example.

I went to a small rural parish for mass near where I work my summer job. The mass was so different, so traditional, and so beautiful, that I had to double check and make certain they weren’t some schismatic group on my way out. Yet, virtually everything was in English. The hymns (not chants) were all very solid and sung without any instruments, led by one female cantor (lack of musicians). If every NO mass was like that, I doubt anyone would really complain. Oh, all the altar boys were actually boys, too. Yet, this is a parish that is quite new. Apparently it used to be a mission (only operated in the tourist season) where mass was once celebrated out of the back of pick-up truck. Clearly that should be evidence that there is cause for hope.
 
rpp

If you believe that Sacred Tradition was in some way abolished or overturned, then you have yourself, and the Church, in a very odd circumstance. If the TLM was in fact a part of Sacred Tradition, such that it was an infallible teaching of the Church, then it could not be changed without destroying the entire concept of infallible teaching authority.

Hence most people see that while the essentials of the mass are protected by Sacred Tradition, that not all of the particulars of the mass are so protected. To back that up, you can look to the variations that were present before the NO in the various other rites that are acknowledged as having valid liturgy.

Not everyone sees it that way of coarse. Certain groups hold that the TLM is in fact almost entirely within Sacred Tradition, and thus could not, can not, and never will be open for change in any real way. I don’t want to go down the road of debating this point, I am simply pointing out that we must very carefully consider which part of the Church’s tradition and authority relates to the mass.
I do not claim that the TLM is Sacred Tradition. I do see that it is based on and derived directly from Sacred Tradition.

Having said that, I have recently learned that some of my sources of information regarding the development of the TLM in the early centeries were inaccurate. I am in the process of re-studying the issue and trying to find more reliable sources.

Three things are clear. 1: Holy Mother Church holds Tradition is high regard. She recognizes that much can be learned there. 2: At least some of those who invented the NO Mass did so with the intent of suppressing the traditional form of the Mass and folded in Protestant forms of worship instead. (Which is why there were protestant ministers who contributed to the invention of the NO Mass.) 3: The NO Mass, when done reverently, can be beautiful and moving. It is valid and can, but only when done well, convey the mysteries of the Faith.

I do not dislike the NO, it certainly has it’s place. What I do not like is the fact many bishops around the world are successful in suppressing the TLM. Sometimes to point of encouraging neo-pagan worship, like an esteemed bishop. cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=3985
or archmil.org/events/ShowEvent.asp?ID=5538&date=12/17/2006
A “Winter Soltice Celebration”?
 
While I have never seen or heard a TLM, I would welcome a wider availability, even if I never do go to one. Likely not every parish needs it, but I would think at least every major city should have it available on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. That is just an opinion.

As to those that blame the down-spiral in so much of the Church on the change from the TLM to the NO, I don’t think that is at all correct. While the timing is very similar, I don’t think you have the correct cause identified. After all, you can’t blame the change in the mass for the giant changes in culture, government, family, education, etc that happened at that time period. Ultimately there had to have been a serious break down in the way the faith was handed down, prior to the change in the mass. If everyone had been properly instructed regarding the faith and the mass, I doubt it would have been accepted.

My personal theory is that it was probably a back to back global depression and a world war that simply applied too much strain, for too long, on families and all the institutions that make society function. I think the change that became visible in the 60s and 70s had its hidden roots going to those earlier times. This isn’t to say recovery wasn’t possible, after all societies have come back from worse. Yet, there was also an influence from many misleading ideologies, and so radical change became the norm across all parts of society. Of those things that did not change, some were destroyed, others remain still as hollow shells of a once grand past.

As to the Latin itself, I doubt most understood it. Many likely new the responses, in the form of memorization. Even the vernacular translations would be easy to memorize. However, the number that actually new Latin well enough to really understand the complexity and nuance in the liturgy was probably quite small. I took Latin in high school, and I am currently taking it in college. I can attest that Latin is by no means a simple or easy language. I suspect if I went to a Latin mass I would understand at best one word in four by hearing. As to being able to actually translate mentally, that is well beyond my ability. Simple greetings and such I can do. Study of Latin today is almost entirely of the written form. Only a small handful of places teach Latin like a living language and thus use its spoken form.

I can also tell you that Liturgical Latin is a late development, relatively. It was sort of a simplified, distilled form of Latin, then watered down some by introduction of local dialectic/vernacular variations. It is still an impressive language, but it is not quite the same as Latin of the classical authors (which was a somewhat artificial form for high literary purposes). The most readily observed change from classical Latin to liturgical Latin, is a shift toward Italian sounding pronunciation.

In classical Latin for example, the letter V would be pronounced more like the W in English (which is oddly the reverse of German, from what I understand).
Oh dear…:rolleyes:

Anna
 
Wait im confused… Whats the difference between that and the masses now ?
 
Is there any chance that if the Tridentine Mass becomes more available that we might one day see more snippets of Latin in the Novus Ordo?

Any chance we’ll ever see the Tridentine Mass in English?
 
One more point.

Neither the Latin Mass, nor the change in the liturgy, “divided the church.” What caused division was the false (perhaps Satanic) notion that there was one Church before Vatican II, and another Church after Vatican II, and the notion of some that the latter was free to change anything in the former, or of others that nothing at all could be changed at all from the former.

There was no former or latter Church, and any interpretation of Vatican II that does not take that into account is simply not Catholic. However, the liturgical changes were highly visible, and people on both sides of the error rallied to either the new (plasticized) liturgy or the old (Latin) one

Blessings,

Gerry
VERY WELL SAID, GERRY! I AM OLD ENUF TO REMEMBER THE LATIN MASS WHEN I WAS IN GRADE SCHOOL- AND IT WAS VERY REVERENT, SMELLS AND BELLS AND ALL THAT. SOMEHOW, THE ENGLISH LITURGY LOST SOME MAJESTY---- I THINK THIS WILL CHANGE WITH THE NEW POPE, WE WILL FIND A MIDDLE WAY THAT INCORPORATES THE COSMIC TRANSCENENCE BACK IN THE MASS.
 
Is there any chance that if the Tridentine Mass becomes more available that we might one day see more snippets of Latin in the Novus Ordo?
Yes. With or without the Tridentine becoming more available, we’ll see more snippets of Latin in the Novus Ordo.
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Jerry-Jet:
Any chance we’ll ever see the Tridentine Mass in English?
That would surprise me.
 
Is there any chance that if the Tridentine Mass becomes more available that we might one day see more snippets of Latin in the Novus Ordo?
Not as long as we have bishops who refuse to follow Vatican ll guidelines. If they’ve refused for forty years, they’re not likely to change now.
Any chance we’ll ever see the Tridentine Mass in English?
Sure. Everywhere in the US where one attends the Tradtional Latin Mass the missal has the Latin on one page and the English on the other. Perhaps an exception is made for such Masses in predominantly Hispanic parishes. In such cases the Latin might be on one side and Spanish on the other, although the Latin would be more easily understood by those whose mother tongue is Spanish.

(Aside: It has even been suggested that parishes with big Hispanic populations should have the Novus Ordo in English on one side and Spanish on the other. This seems a good idea to me.)

Anna
 
Any chance we’ll ever see the Tridentine Mass in English?
The Vatican II document on the Sacred Liturgy is the one that suggested that at least part of the Mass be translated into the venacular language. I suspect that the intent of the Council was that part or all of the Tridentine Mass be translated but not changed. I do not think it was the Council’s intent to have a whole new Mass invented.

I think your suggestion is right in line with the Council’s intent.
 
From an article today from the Catholic News Agency:
Rome, Dec. 15, 2006 (CNA) - Sources close to the Vatican have told Catholic News Agency that the Motu Propio by which Pope Benedict XVI would allow for the universal use of the Missal of St. Pius V may be published after Christmas…
 
I know very little about the Latin Mass. But I enjoyed reading some of the posts in this thread so I’ll say a few things too.

Let me first say; **I think that if it weren’t for the reforms of Vatican II, I probably would have been a lost soul. **(I emphasize the word probably because who knows what really would have happened to me; only God knows that)

I was only 5 years old when Blessed Pope John XXIII died. I never knew him. I did read his diary/journal when I was around 30. I thank him more than anybody else for starting Vatican II. He was a very holy Pope. I also thank Pope Paul VI for finishing off what was started. I thank Popes John Paul I and also John Paul II for obeying it. I have much confidence in Pope Benedict XVI and like him a lot too!

The best mass is the mass that you can best understand and that probably means that mass that is said in the language you speak.

What is important for me now, is that I have easy access to a church, with a priest who takes bread and wine, says the effective prayers where they become the Body and Blood of Christ and I have Communion.

My worry is that a priest may favour one mass over the other without taking into consideration the needs his congregation. For example, the priest may favour the “Latin” mass over an “English” mass because he likes it better for historical reasons. This may not be the best course of action if most people in his Parish benefits spiritually from the other mass.

Sometimes I have to attend a mass in another language that I don’t understand. I do my best to follow the mass by reading the mass from a missal in my own language. I miss out mainly on the homily.

So, I can get by in a Latin mass, but I wouldn’t want it forced on me. If it was, I would obey of course.

The best scenario is to give people an option to go to either kind of mass. IDEALY, this means every Parish should introduce a Latin mass on Sundays in addition to the ones they say now. That might not be feasible for every Parish.

If a Latin mass was offered in my church, I would go every once and a while.
 
I know very little about the Latin Mass. But I enjoyed reading some of the posts in this thread so I’ll say a few things too.

Let me first say; **I think that if it weren’t for the reforms of Vatican II, I probably would have been a lost soul. **(I emphasize the word probably because who knows what really would have happened to me; only God knows that)

I was only 5 years old when Blessed Pope John XXIII died. I never knew him. I did read his diary/journal when I was around 30. I thank him more than anybody else for starting Vatican II. He was a very holy Pope. I also thank Pope Paul VI for finishing off what was started. I thank Popes John Paul I and also John Paul II for obeying it. I have much confidence in Pope Benedict XVI and like him a lot too!

The best mass is the mass that you can best understand and that probably means that mass that is said in the language you speak.

What is important for me now, is that I have easy access to a church, with a priest who takes bread and wine, says the effective prayers where they become the Body and Blood of Christ and I have Communion.

My worry is that a priest may favour one mass over the other without taking into consideration the needs his congregation. For example, the priest may favour the “Latin” mass over an “English” mass because he likes it better for historical reasons. This may not be the best course of action if most people in his Parish benefits spiritually from the other mass.

Sometimes I have to attend a mass in another language that I don’t understand. I do my best to follow the mass by reading the mass from a missal in my own language. I miss out mainly on the homily.

So, I can get by in a Latin mass, but I wouldn’t want it forced on me. If it was, I would obey of course.

The best scenario is to give people an option to go to either kind of mass. IDEALY, this means every Parish should introduce a Latin mass on Sundays in addition to the ones they say now. That might not be feasible for every Parish.

If a Latin mass was offered in my church, I would go every once and a while.
GOOD HONEST POST. BROTHER DOMINIC. I AM OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE LATIN MASS WHEN I WAS IN GRADE SCHOOL. IT HAD A CERTAIN MAJESTY THAT THE NOVUS ORDO OFTEN DOES NOT. PERHAPS THE HOLY FATHER WILL RE-INTRODUCE SOME LATIN SECTIONS AND MAYBE THE KYRIE IN THE GREEK WAS ALWAYS WONDERFUL TO LISTEN TO. I AM SURE SOME CHANGES FOR THE BETTER WILL BE MADE.
I WONDER IF THERE WILL BE A VATICAN III IN OUR LIFETIME! THE AMERICAN CHURCH SEEMS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE AFRICAN AND 3RD WORLD CHURCHES. MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES, SAYS THE PROVERB.

VIC FROM NJ
 
GOOD HONEST POST. BROTHER DOMINIC. I AM OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE LATIN MASS WHEN I WAS IN GRADE SCHOOL. IT HAD A CERTAIN MAJESTY THAT THE NOVUS ORDO OFTEN DOES NOT. PERHAPS THE HOLY FATHER WILL RE-INTRODUCE SOME LATIN SECTIONS AND MAYBE THE KYRIE IN THE GREEK WAS ALWAYS WONDERFUL TO LISTEN TO. I AM SURE SOME CHANGES FOR THE BETTER WILL BE MADE.
I WONDER IF THERE WILL BE A VATICAN III IN OUR LIFETIME! THE AMERICAN CHURCH SEEMS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE AFRICAN AND 3RD WORLD CHURCHES. MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES, SAYS THE PROVERB.

VIC FROM NJ
I too am old enough to remember the Mass pre-Vatican II, when I was in grade school. People sat in the pews praying the Rosary during Mass, or they stared off into space. Some fell asleep. All this while the priest and altar boys(who merely recited memorized latin) said the Mass.

Please, don’t bring us back to those days! 😦

Jim
 
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