Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[vern_humphrey]

I’ll tell you about the Latin Mass.

My parents were divoirced when I was about two and got back together when I was about 11. My Dad was in the oil exploration business, and we went with him on his next contract – to northern Peru. The town where we lived was “different” – there was electricity only 6 hours a day, there was no hot water (if you wanted it hot, build a fire), and during Cholera season, you boiled all your water and filtered it. The filters were too slow to keep up with our thirst.

When we arrived, one of ouir first outings was to find the church. What a shock! It was empty – no pews, kneelers, or anything like that. Mom explained you knelt on the stone floor.

The artwork was garish, frightening – of course it was Indian, and done by local craftsmen.

For our first mass, we found ourselves jammed in the church, back to belly. Most of the people were small – adults not much taller than I. They were barefoot and barrel-chested, and the women wore derby hats – often several at a time, stacked one on top of the other. Most of these people spoke indian dialects, not Spanish.

Here and there over the crowd, you’d see taller people, pure Castillians – who of course spoke only Castillian.

Then the Mass began, and everyone responded in Latin – from memory. I felt a lot better. I knew I was in my Father’s house.

 

[rlg94086]

Wow, what an experience. I have never experienced a Latin Mass (I was raised non-religious and converted in 1990), but I see the value of it. I travel internationally. I can attend Mass in any country and follow along, but my prayers certainly don’t match the vernacular. Latin has a unifying effect.

The priest at our new parish (we just moved in September) is adding more Latin in our Mass - from the Sanctus to the Agnus Dei, except the Our Father. We also pray the rosary in Latin when we meet before our Faith Formation classes. Our priest is only 34 years old, so he probably didn’t grow up with Latin either. It’s an interesting experience.

My wife said someone complained during Faith Formation that she doesn’t feel the same reverence in Latin, because of her unfamiliarity with the language. I understand her perspective, but I think if you know what you are praying (by learning what the Latin means) you can still feel the same. I learned German - if I sing Silent Night (Stille Nacht) in the original German, I know and feel what I am singing.

God bless,

Robert

I’ll tell you about the Latin Mass.

My parents were divoirced when I was about two and got back together when I was about 11. My Dad was in the oil exploration business, and we went with him on his next contract – to northern Peru. The town where we lived was “different” – there was electricity only 6 hours a day, there was no hot water (if you wanted it hot, build a fire), and during Cholera season, you boiled all your water and filtered it. The filters were too slow to keep up with our thirst.

When we arrived, one of ouir first outings was to find the church. What a shock! It was empty – no pews, kneelers, or anything like that. Mom explained you knelt on the stone floor.

The artwork was garish, frightening – of course it was Indian, and done by local craftsmen.

For our first mass, we found ourselves jammed in the church, back to belly. Most of the people were small – adults not much taller than I. They were barefoot and barrel-chested, and the women wore derby hats – often several at a time, stacked one on top of the other. Most of these people spoke indian dialects, not Spanish.

Here and there over the crowd, you’d see taller people, pure Castillians – who of course spoke only Castillian.

Then the Mass began, and everyone responded in Latin – from memory. I felt a lot better. I knew I was in my Father’s house.

 

[AngelRose81]

There is an article about this in the new Inside the Vatican. I haven’t read it yet for the details. I’ve never been to a TLM and would love to. I’m in RCIA now and I have grown to love the more traditional aspects of the Church. Our parish has 3 weekend Masses and I found that the 8 am Mass is the most traditional (and also the least amount of people attend it) so I’ve started going to it. Funny, when I was going to Protestant churches I never wanted to get up and go that early in the moring to church but now I’m excited and look forward to it!!

 

[Sixtus]

Angel Rose 81

Your email was very heartening to read.It is a decision you will not regret, I can confidently say.

I have met thousands of catholics and in my view, the best are converts. They seem to appreciate the faith more.Well done you.

Seeings you are in the RCIA programme, if you have any uncertainties, anything you are not happy with, anything that troubles you, please do not hesitate to ask within your RCIA programme. Anything you wish to know about the sacred scriptures, anything we do at mass about which you may be uncertain. Everything is solidly based on sacred scripture. If in doubt please ask.

I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I was an altar boy in grade school before V II. The assertion that the altar boys memorized the Latin and did not know what it meant is dead wrong. One could not be an altar boy until the 4th grade and one received one’s First Holy Communion in 2nd grade - which means that one spent two years in the pews with one’s family. There were these handy-dandy things called St. Joseph Missals - English on the left side of the page and Latin on the right. My mother insisted that I follow along and yes, before I became an altar boy, I knew what Et cum spiritu tuo meant as well as Hoc est enim corpus meum.

The little old ladies saying their rosary said their rosary even during novenas, Stations of the Cross, and benediction or anything else for that matter. They were more devoted to the rosary and I daresay you could have asked any one of them what the Latin meant and they would have been able to tell you. The people didn’t understand Latin is the functional equivalent of Caltholic urban folklore.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

. The people didn’t understand Latin is the functional equivalent of Caltholic urban folklore.

And the irony is that the people who so vehemently defend these forty years of Mass in the vernacular (read: English), do NOT understand what is going on in the Mass! Loudly and with maximum gestures they “participate” in something, but they don’t understand what it is, and they best demonstrate this by their embarrassing ignorance of the Real Presence and their frequent genuflecting to NOTHING.

Anna

 

[rlg94086]

That seems a little over-the-top Anna Elizabeth. I don’t vehemently defend the 40 years of Mass in the vernacular (English in the US…with some exceptions). However, I am a convert and it is the Mass I know the best. I am learning some Latin, because our priest (who also grew up with the current Mass) has enouraged us to learn the prayers in Latin.

I know what it is, and that is why I genuflect.

And the irony is that the people who so vehemently defend these forty years of Mass in the vernacular (read: English), do NOT understand what is going on in the Mass! Loudly and with maximum gestures they “participate” in something, but they don’t understand what it is, and they best demonstrate this by their embarrassing ignorance of the Real Presence and their frequent genuflecting to NOTHING.

Anna

 

[JKirkLVNV]

And the irony is that the people who so vehemently defend these forty years of Mass in the vernacular (read: English), do NOT understand what is going on in the Mass! Loudly and with maximum gestures they “participate” in something, but they don’t understand what it is, and they best demonstrate this by their embarrassing ignorance of the Real Presence and their frequent genuflecting to NOTHING.

Anna

I wouldn’t paint with too broad a brush, if I were you. Many advocates of the vernacular Mass understand PRECISELY what is going on in the Mass (the re-presentation in a bloodless manner of the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary). Advocacy for the vernacular does not equate with a heretical view or even an innocently skewed view of the Mass.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand that some older cradle Catholics feel homesick from time to time, but as an adult convert of more than 25 years, I do not see the benefit of attending a mass that I cannot understand at all since I do not speak or read Latin?

Honestly, smells and bells and nostalgia aside, what is the point?

Don’t shoot, I’m trying to “get it”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

146 posts and then silence?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I understand that some older cradle Catholics feel homesick from time to time, but as an adult convert of more than 25 years, I do not see the benefit of attending a mass that I cannot understand at all since I do not speak or read Latin?

Honestly, smells and bells and nostalgia aside, what is the point?

Don’t shoot, I’m trying to “get it”.

No shooting LOL

But, if you have never been to a TLM you can have no idea of how it can make you feel. I follow the Mass in the NO with my VatII Missal just like I followed the TLM as a child. But it was also nice to be able to go to a Mass in Germany and hear the same prayers while reading my English translations. Not everything was in Latin the homily was in the vernacular. Could not understand that in German, French or Spanish LOL but the Mass I could follow.

 

[rien]

This ain’t gonna happen I think. Even if it does it sounds like it will be up to the local bishop - and my local bishop, appointed by Benedict, is dead set against the Tridentine Mass. Has been up to now anyway.

This would be a disaster for the church and speed the coming schism.

As I said, given some of Benedict’s appoimtments I suspect there is a lot less here than some fundamentalist Catholics want to believe. They will I am sure be disappointed in the end.

 

[Walking_Home]

This ain’t gonna happen I think. Even if it does it sounds like it will be up to the local bishop - and my local bishop, appointed by Benedict, is dead set against the Tridentine Mass. Has been up to now anyway.

This would be a disaster for the church and speed the coming schism.

As I said, given some of Benedict’s appoimtments I suspect there is a lot less here than some fundamentalist Catholics want to believe. They will I am sure be disappointed in the end.

---

Never know. Could be your bishop may end up getting a call from our Pope as some French bishops did.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/News3.html

 

[Morning_Star15]

I haven’t been keeping up with this, so could someone please fill me in on what the lastest word is? Has the indult been issued yet?

 

[MikeDunphy]

I haven’t been keeping up with this, so could someone please fill me in on what the lastest word is? Has the indult been issued yet?

No broadening of the indult yet. A news item published yesterday in Britain’s Catholic Herald indicates that the Pope is personally speaking by phone to bishops, especially in France, before releasing the expected motu proprio. The report does not mention a release date for the motu.

 

[Rolltide]

This ain’t gonna happen I think.

On the contrary, the most recent reports seem to indicate this is almost a done deal. The Ecclesia Dei Commission recently met, and announced that it was “very probable” that the pope would issue a moto propio sometime after Christmas, likely in January or February.

Cardinal Jorge Medina recently stated:
“The publication of a Motu Propio by the Pope allowing for widespread celebration of the Mass in Latin according to the missal of St. Pius V is very near,” the cardinal said.

“The matter has been calmly studied and it was discussed for more than four hours, resulting in some corrections to the text of the Motu Propio,” he added.

The next step for it to be definitively published will be taken by Cardinal Dario Castrillon, president of the commission “Ecclesia Dei, who will present the text to the Pope for his final approval. (see catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8274)

This is from a cardinal who’s working on a text of the actual pronouncement. That seems far more certain than past rumors we’ve heard.

Edit: Here’s an article just yesterday indicating that this is virtually a done deal:

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/01/pope-telephoned-french-bishops-about-tridentine-mass/

Even if it does it sounds like it will be up to the local bishop - and my local bishop, appointed by Benedict, is dead set against the Tridentine Mass. Has been up to now anyway.

This was from Domus Dei on December 9, from someone in the know.

1. The document will definitely be a Motu Proprio. (That means it will be from the Pope and not a document of a Congregation or joint document issued by different dicasteries.)
2. At the beginning of November it was in its final draft, after four revisions.
3. During the third week of November it was suggested that the document might come out in about three weeks. This would put it around… well… now.
4. It will authorize private celebration of Mass with the 1962 Missal by any priest as he chooses. Public Masses will be regulated by the bishop.
5. What a “private” Mass is will be defined in the document. A number will be established for what constitutes a “private” Mass. Provided the group is that size, no permission of the bishop will be necessary.
6. If I understand it right, and I admit I might be confused, there might be something in the document about greater numbers of people (than what would constitute a “private” Mass) being allowed to attend without the bishop’s permission so long as a Mass in the Novus Ordo is first provided for those who want it. I am not sure about this element, but it might be a prudent solution. If I am right about this element of the document, the idea would be to ensure that a priest doesn’t simply stop offering people the chance to attend the Novus Ordo and thus force everyone to go to the older form. See what I mean?
7. The document will stress the obligation of bishops to be “generous” in allowing the older form of Mass to be offered publicly with language much strong than that in the Motu Proprio “Ecclesia Dei adflicta” of John Paul II.

Now granted, a couple of points have been updated on this, but other information indicates that private Masses will now be open to the public for audiences below a certain number. Private Masses require absolutely no permission from the bishop. It may also allow public Masses unregulated by the bishop as long as a Novus Ordo Mass was also guaranteed to be offered on that day. We’ll have to see on that part though.

This would be a disaster for the church and speed the coming schism.

I thought that part of the point was to rectify with SSPX and actually prevent schism.

 

[MikeDunphy]

I understand your puzzlement. All things being equal, I would prefer a Mass in English to a Mass in Latin, for the sake of understanding.

Nevertheless, as things are today, I prefer the Traditional Mass for several reasons:
(1) Validly translated words of consecration. It is the heart of the Mass!
(2) Kneeling to receive Communion, on the tongue, from a priest. Jesus’ holy body is too sacred a thing to be handled by unconsecrated hands.
(3) Unity with the saints of the past, who worshipped our Lord using different versions of the Traditional Mass.
(4) Sacred Language. Compare the language of a traditional Low Mass with the New Mass. There are points of similarity, but the expressions of devotion are more abundant in the old Mass.
(5) The “smells and bells”, the quiet before Mass, the candles, the unabashedly devout surroundings all make it easier to approach God in prayer.
(6) I have not yet heard a heretical song sung at a Latin Mass.
(7) A Mass that has been deeply meditated upon, and revised only with the utmost care and caution over the centuries. Our encounter with the Living God is a tremendous event, too important to be handled with a ceremony thrown together over a few months or years.

I understand that some older cradle Catholics feel homesick from time to time, but as an adult convert of more than 25 years, I do not see the benefit of attending a mass that I cannot understand at all since I do not speak or read Latin?

Honestly, smells and bells and nostalgia aside, what is the point?

Don’t shoot, I’m trying to “get it”.

 

[LilyM]

No shooting LOL

But, if you have never been to a TLM you can have no idea of how it can make you feel. I follow the Mass in the NO with my VatII Missal just like I followed the TLM as a child. But it was also nice to be able to go to a Mass in Germany and hear the same prayers while reading my English translations. Not everything was in Latin the homily was in the vernacular. Could not understand that in German, French or Spanish LOL but the Mass I could follow.

I am a cradle Catholic - although I grew up post Vatican 2 I have plenty of family members and friends (including a fair few priests) who were well and truly into their adulthood when the NO arrived. Not a one of 'em that I know of prefers the TLM :nope: not that they dislike it either.

So, as much as I respect your love of the TLM, and even though I do want to see a much broader availability of it for those who want it, your attitude is far from a universal one.

 

[LilyM]

I understand your puzzlement. All things being equal, I would prefer a Mass in English to a Mass in Latin, for the sake of understanding.

Nevertheless, as things are today, I prefer the Traditional Mass for several reasons:
(1) Validly translated words of consecration. It is the heart of the Mass!
(2) Kneeling to receive Communion, on the tongue, from a priest. Jesus’ holy body is too sacred a thing to be handled by unconsecrated hands.
(3) Unity with the saints of the past, who worshipped our Lord using different versions of the Traditional Mass.
(4) Sacred Language. Compare the language of a traditional Low Mass with the New Mass. There are points of similarity, but the expressions of devotion are more abundant in the old Mass.
(5) The “smells and bells”, the quiet before Mass, the candles, the unabashedly devout surroundings all make it easier to approach God in prayer.
(6) I have not yet heard a heretical song sung at a Latin Mass.
(7) A Mass that has been deeply meditated upon, and revised only with the utmost care and caution over the centuries. Our encounter with the Living God is a tremendous event, too important to be handled with a ceremony thrown together over a few months or years.

Validly translated? I hope you’re not taking the extremely dangerous position of suggesting the words of consecration used in the NO are invalid?

As for communion - you have every right to receive kneeling and on the tongue at NO, and I see more than a few people doing one or both of these at the NO masses I attend. As for your hands not being fit to handle the Body of Christ - what makes them less fit than your unconsecrated tongue and mouth or your unconsecrated throat??? :ehh:

Ans unity with the saints - what about our current day saints? Blessed Mother Teresa? John Paul 2 of blessed memory (may he be sainted soon)? So you seriously think they one iota the less saintly for attending and celebrating NO Masses?

 

[ReConverted]

This ain’t gonna happen I think. Even if it does it sounds like it will be up to the local bishop - and my local bishop, appointed by Benedict, is dead set against the Tridentine Mass. Has been up to now anyway.

This would be a disaster for the church and speed the coming schism.

As I said, given some of Benedict’s appoimtments I suspect there is a lot less here than some fundamentalist Catholics want to believe. They will I am sure be disappointed in the end.

*** From the news agency of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, on the “promises of 2007”:***

Before then, other papal documents are expected to arrive; they include a post-synodal apostolic exhortation on the Eucharist and, according to Vatican sources, a document issued "motu proprio" (on his own initiative) that would expand permission to use the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0607324.htm