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irishpatrick
Guest
Jesus once called men a brood of vipers. Do you suppose those men accepted that?
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Path_Finder
Guest
This thread is not about Israel Palestine, the simple premise of walls was addressed.
Honestly, banks lock up their vaults, if we are carrying this to the extreme, we can say that shows a human failure and obviously, it does. We have a fallen nature but it seems quite a tangential point of view to take.
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Round_Hill
Guest
I am incredibly confused by the Pope’s statements. Like them or not, walls/barriers/borders are an essential and necessary part of national sovereignty, especially in today’s world to maintain stability and keep out things like drugs, traffickers, people with malicious intent etc.
Also, isn’t Vatican City surrounded by enormous walls? I remember standing outside a huge wall for hours waiting to get in.
Also, isn’t Vatican City surrounded by enormous walls? I remember standing outside a huge wall for hours waiting to get in.
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irishpatrick
Guest
I am not going to analyze it any further either. I will only say, that for the Pope to even suggest such a thing, is something a person should carefully consider.
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Path_Finder
Guest
About the Pharisees.
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
So border fences, armed guards, checkpoints, and laws and policies are okay to keep border crossers out of all countries illegally, but walls are a bridge too far. Got it.
It is interesting how the Vatican seems to pick and choose with specific law being proposed they want to opine on. They kept their mouth shut on Obamacare, but chime in on a wall? The don’t denounce those who supported as USSC decision on gay “marriage” as non-Christian, but do so when it comes to building a wall to protect sovereignty?
I don’t even favor a wall per se, but find their inconsistency in when they decide to opine on US laws and rulings troubling, and disheartening for many faithful Catholics. Would that the Vatican had been more terse when it came to gay “marriage” as they are when it comes to something like a “may likely never even happen” border wall.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Yes, but do you think those men accepted that?
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Path_Finder
Guest
Yes, at some point in their lives.
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zerocrossing
Guest
Not what I said. Here is further explanation of what I said…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13678087&postcount=74
However, please read out the word “snarky” since the person who wrote the statement about the Vatican wall says it was not intended to be snarky.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Perhaps that is the point.
Also, so many people are firing shots at the Pope without reading what he said. The Pope did not name Trump personally–he said, "A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the gospel."
Take note: if a person thinks ONLY of building walls, and not building bridges–
In other words, even with the Mexican border, we must try to build bridges, even if we must also erect a fence. If one wants to lock out everyone, and refuses to look for solutions, is that person a Christian?
I notice that Trump has jumped all over this despite it being taken way out of context. The Pope even refused to say whether or not people should vote for Trump. If I can read his words, so can Trump. But Trump knows most people won’t bother reading what the Pope actually said–so he is using it as a means to increase his numbers. He even blasted the Pope about what would happen if Isis attacks the Vatican…
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bekalc
Guest
The problem with the Pope’s statement is this. I find the idea of a wall with our neighbors to be horrificly sad.
However in this case we have a broken immigration system and crime coming from our borders. People are not willing to show mercy because they feel that it will continue.
At this point better control of the borders may make Americans more willing to show concern for their neighbors.
If the Pope had focused more on the rhetoric and not the wall people may have been more willing to hear what he says.
And I am frankly tired of Mexico lecturing us when Mexico is horrific to THEIR immigrants.
However in this case we have a broken immigration system and crime coming from our borders. People are not willing to show mercy because they feel that it will continue.
At this point better control of the borders may make Americans more willing to show concern for their neighbors.
If the Pope had focused more on the rhetoric and not the wall people may have been more willing to hear what he says.
And I am frankly tired of Mexico lecturing us when Mexico is horrific to THEIR immigrants.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
“As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that.”
Well at least from this it appears if Pope Francis were a CAF member that he wouldn’t be getting involved in who Catholics should vote for.
Well at least from this it appears if Pope Francis were a CAF member that he wouldn’t be getting involved in who Catholics should vote for.
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
But is a man who closes doors and uses locks not a Christian? Apparently, the man who chooses to build a wall isn’t a Christian, though.
I suspect what he meant was that people who choose to wall off others aren’t acting in a Christian manner, not that they have literally undone their baptism.
But of course, you have people in this very topic supporting the notion that what the Pope meant was someone like that literally isn’t a Christian anymore. Now how exactly that loss of Baptism occurred, I cannot say. Just more unhelpful confusion from the Vatican.
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Path_Finder
Guest
It’s hard to judge all of this and that quote certainly adds a good perspective.
I can find images of the Pope with other world leaders, not to derail this thread. Some of those leaders are reputed to have done some very bad things. I would also remember this and I doubt those leaders would be likened to the “brood of vipers” analogy as far as singling Trump out.
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irishpatrick
Guest
The Pope (read his comments) did not even mention Trump by name. He said if one thinks ONLY of building walls, and not of building bridges, they are not Christian. The Pope is correct. If a person does that, they are not in any way following the Gospel.
The sad thing is the Pope just gave Trump another tool in his campaign and Trump will NOT bother reading the text.
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irishpatrick
Guest
I have not yet read it, but I think the Pope spoke in very stark terms to the Mexican government and drug lords. Do not forget, the Pope also spoke in very stark terms to the Italian Mafia. He does not shy from speaking truth.
And, in truth, if a person does think only of building walls, and never tries to build bridges, how Christian is that?
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jtauke
Guest
This is a pretty terrible argument.
They’re restrictive about population because the Vatican City is only about .17 square miles in area.
Apples and oranges
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Theo520
Guest
I’m now waiting for the Pope to return home and call out ‘tear down this wall’, the wall that surrounds the Vatican. Then he should relax the Vatican’s highly restrictive citizenship policy! All should be within his power as the Head of State.
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gracepoole
Guest
My concern is that Trump is going to inevitably drive anti-Catholic sentiment in the US as a result of this and other episodes. I just listened to Limbaugh 
rolleyes and he summarized the pope’s comments about Trump. He then took a caller who was obviously Catholic, said he supported and loved the pope, and explained that the pontiff was reaffirming Catholic teaching on the dignity of all humans when rejecting the notion of walls built between countries. (Whether one agrees with walls or not, Catholics must accept the Church’s teachings regarding human dignity – teachings which are typically not understood by non-Catholics, in my opinion.) The caller also noted that the MSM often doesn’t characterize the pope’s comments properly and that Catholic media does a much better job of contextualizing them in terms of Catholic teaching. Limbaugh then took a break and when he returned, he did so alone and took the opportunity to describe the caller as “typical” of those who want to blame the US for not being generous enough to welcome refugees. He then went on to claim that the pope wants the US to become socialist and reject capitalism wholesale. Aside from the factual errors involved in his ensuing comments, what struck me was the anti-papal and perhaps anti-Catholic spin to this rhetoric. It was troubling.
rolleyes and he summarized the pope’s comments about Trump. He then took a caller who was obviously Catholic, said he supported and loved the pope, and explained that the pontiff was reaffirming Catholic teaching on the dignity of all humans when rejecting the notion of walls built between countries. (Whether one agrees with walls or not, Catholics must accept the Church’s teachings regarding human dignity – teachings which are typically not understood by non-Catholics, in my opinion.) The caller also noted that the MSM often doesn’t characterize the pope’s comments properly and that Catholic media does a much better job of contextualizing them in terms of Catholic teaching. Limbaugh then took a break and when he returned, he did so alone and took the opportunity to describe the caller as “typical” of those who want to blame the US for not being generous enough to welcome refugees. He then went on to claim that the pope wants the US to become socialist and reject capitalism wholesale. Aside from the factual errors involved in his ensuing comments, what struck me was the anti-papal and perhaps anti-Catholic spin to this rhetoric. It was troubling.- Status