Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

[Path_Finder]

What does the “specter of anti-Catholicism” mean??

It seems you’re continuing to insinuate that because I used the term “anti-Catholicism” in past posts, someone can somehow interpret this as claiming others here might be anti-Catholic. Since this couldn’t be further from the truth, I’d really appreciate further explanation. You can “ponder” for yourself about a great number of things – why would you continue to do so, however, after I’ve explained that pondering is unnecessary??

I don’t think one can draw that conclusion, I believe the initial starting point was bringing up a Mr. Limbaugh and then, somehow from there “anti-Catholicism” was brought up so perhaps this is but once “anti-Catholicism” was brought up, as can happen in life, it now seemed fair game to start throwing this term around in the thread in total. Sure, it doesn’t mean anyone else is calling a Catholic here “anti-Catholic” (debatable per all posts in total considered), it is merely saying that perhaps if one doesn’t agree with the Pope, they are “anti-Catholic.”

I believe Mr. Limbaugh has been called outright anti-Catholic here; these things grow. Would Mr. Limbaugh had been called this name if his show and anti-Catholic were not used in the first place? If one initializes talk, even if inadvertent, are they without fault if these things occur? Obviously, in discussions, we read what one person says and perhaps we will amplify it or speak on it additionally per our own understandings.

Mr. Limbaugh has defended some solid values throughout 23 years of being on national radio, he has plenty of faults as well. Count me in on defending him, if I perceive he is being misinterpreted.

 

[grotto]

This whole thread got started with knots throughout! First, the title is wrong. Holy Father Pope Francis did not suggest that Mr. Trump was not a Christian. He said “one” who does … Trump, I think, assumed he was the “one” because he said he will build a wall along the border of Mexico, and has explained that it will not be that hard to do.

The cost will be covered under trade changes with Mexico. We need a secure border. We need a barrier above and below ground, above and below the coastline and in the air. The drug smugglers, human slavers, terrorists and other vermin are in and out as they please. This situation has suited the Barry Soetorro/Barack Hussein Obama administration to fundamentally change America but it has to be greatly repaired.

Trump’s positions are not secrets nor harmful. He has been verrrry candid and it seems most people are ready to hear exactly what his thinking is. The sneaky, backroom deals with people (we do not even know who!) have got to be ended.

Mr. Trump has stated that he admires and respects Holy Father Francis. He has also come to understand that the Holy Father was not saying that he (Trump) was not a Christian.

The media should not lend confusion to every off the cuff, taken out of context, spoken word. And we should not pick it up and make things worse.

 

[gracepoole]

I don’t think one can draw that conclusion, I believe the initial starting point was bringing up a Mr. Limbaugh and then, somehow from there “anti-Catholicism” was brought up so perhaps this is but once “anti-Catholicism” was brought up, as can happen in life, it now seemed fair game to start throwing this term around in the thread in total. Sure, it doesn’t mean anyone else is calling a Catholic here “anti-Catholic” (debatable per all posts in total considered), it is merely saying that perhaps if one doesn’t agree with the Pope, they are “anti-Catholic.”

If I haven’t suggested this, please stop speaking to me as though I have. Stop responding to my comments and insinuating that I’m calling other Catholics “anti-Catholic” for agreeing with Trump. Take it up with those who have actually done this.

And just to be clear, I also haven’t suggested that those who disagree with the Pope are “anti-Catholic.” I’ve only noted that easily dismissing the Pope’s comments about a moral issue is more than a little problematic.

I believe Mr. Limbaugh has been called outright anti-Catholic here; these things grow. Would Mr. Limbaugh had been called this name if his show and anti-Catholic were not used in the first place?

Limbaugh wouldn’t have been called this if he hadn’t been speaking untruths about the Pope and his motives. Not sure why any Catholic would want do defend him on this point.

If one initializes talk, even if inadvertent, are they without fault if these things occur? Obviously, in discussions, we read what one person says and perhaps we will amplify it or speak on it additionally per our own understandings.

You’re asking if I’m responsible if others have poor critical reading skills? No, I’m not.

Mr. Limbaugh has defended some solid values throughout 23 years of being on national radio, he has plenty of faults as well. Count me in on defending him, if I perceive he is being misinterpreted.

I’m not sure how he’s been misinterpreted since his exact words have been provided in this thread.

 

[irishpatrick]

I have not seen the Pope disrespected one bit in this thread, I think it is totally false to say he has. That is strictly against forum rules and anyone doing so would be promptly notified of such.

If anyone has been unfairly negatively spoken about it is Donald Trump. Those posts are numerous here.

I read some post accusing Trump as being a celebrity and that is his appeal. There are a number of negative posts here.

Obviously, I disagree.

 

[Path_Finder]

Obviously, I disagree.

ex·am·ple
*
NOUN

a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule:
"it's a good example of how European action can produce results" · [more]
synonyms: specimen · sample · exemplar · exemplification · [more]
a person or thing regarded in terms of their fitness to be imitated or the likelihood of their being imitated:
"it is vitally important that parents should set an example" · [more]
synonyms: precedent · lead · model · pattern · exemplar · ideal · [more]

VERB

(be exampled)
be illustrated or exemplified:
"the extent of Allied naval support is exampled by the navigational specialists provided"*

 

[irishpatrick]

The Pope takes care of His Flock, Trump if elected takes care of his flock.

Trump is an American, the Pope is from Argentina and Italy.

It is not Catholic Teaching that we must agree with every single thing the Pope says.

It is Catholic Teaching that we do not watch someone being beaten and try to stop it.

Biden acknowledged is being called a “good man”, yet, Biden has actively promoted abortion. The Pope calls abortion, murder, taking of another life. I don’t see how one can be a good man if they promote murder.

Oh please–Trump does NOT have a flock, unless his supporters now think of themselves as followers. We are talking about an often quite crass and rude businessman versus the Vicar of Christ.

Man, this really is a weird episode of Twilight Zone. Up is down, and down is up. Right is wrong, and wrong is right. Trump is now a Pope over a flock, just as Pope Francis is a Pope over a flock, and Putin is Pope over a flock, and x is a Pope over a flock. Thousands of Popes across the world…

 

[Path_Finder]

If I haven’t suggested this, please stop speaking to me as though I have. Stop responding to my comments and insinuating that I’m calling other Catholics “anti-Catholic” for agreeing with Trump. Take it up with those who have actually done this.

No one said such. I brought up that the specter of anti-Catholicism was brought up, no more, no less.

And just to be clear, I also haven’t suggested that those who disagree with the Pope are “anti-Catholic.” I’ve only noted that easily dismissing the Pope’s comments about a moral issue is more than a little problematic.

Granted, however, if one is posting editorials from the Washington Post about “anti-Catholicism”, that is being brought up. If I post an editorial on pancakes, that topic is being brought up.

Limbaugh wouldn’t have been called this if he hadn’t been speaking untruths about the Pope and his motives. Not sure why any Catholic would want do defend him on this point.

That may be a point of contention with some people.

If the Holy Pontiff has said things that can be said to sound like Marxism, if the Holy Pontiff is in a number of photos with the rulers of Cuba and appears to be in good spirits, I don’t see why discussion must be limited.

You’re asking if I’m responsible if others have poor critical reading skills? No, I’m not.

One must be confusing me with someone else.

I’m not sure how he’s been misinterpreted since his exact words have been provided in this thread.

That sounds like a valid point.

 

[pnewton]

On this thread trump supporters have been called low information, low in cognitive ability, narrowedly exposed in reading, cafeteria catholic, and those are just what I can remember.

This is a muddling of several issues. Let me take ownership of mine.

I have used the word “ignorant” in its proper context of speaking about what the Holy Father thinks and teaches based only on reading a few headlines. I only use it when it is crystal clear the speaker has zero concept of what the Holy Father, or Catholicism, actually teaches. For example, saying the Holy Father does not care about an instance of murder or torture. That is ignorance as it shows a profound lack of understanding of him.

I have used the word “cafeteria Catholic” and defined it copying from Scott Hahn for those that judge Catholic doctrine by their own belief, and may be very orthodox in almost everyway, until there is one belief that is incompatible with their opinion. Then, they refuse to learn about that one point, lest it change their life.

I have used the word stupid only in one instance. That would be the action of reading a headline and forming an overreaching and rash opinion based on this limited information. Is this not what conservatism has been preaching for years? In fact, I learned from conservative pundits to read news with a critical mind, having grown up before the modern advent of Fox News in the era of a rather liberal mainstream media.

I do not recall aiming any of these terms at Trump supporters. I have been angered by the rash judgment directed at my spiritual Father, unjustly and without cause, by Trump, Limbaugh, some lady in a news article and some posters here. It is what one should expect when you unfairly attack. That person’s family may become angry.

 

[Path_Finder]

Oh please–Trump does NOT have a flock, unless his supporters now think of themselves as followers. We are about an often quite crass and rude businessman versus the Vicar of Christ.

This is old. This is the same ol’ same ol’, this is not Catholic teaching that we have to adhere to every uttering of the Pope. To stick up for someone being unfairly attacked which I believe the above is, is quite unfair. If I see someone getting beat up in the street, I will go help them.

Man, this really is a weird episode of Twilight Zone. Up is down, and down is up. Right is wrong, and wrong is right. Trump is now a Pope over his flock, just as Pope Francis is a Pope over his flock, and Putin is Pope over his flock, and x is a Pope over his flock.

I agree, it is weird, like what sounded like believing that everyone coming across the border were from Mexico or calling “sarcasm”, someone stating, perhaps poorer people from Asia or Africa could be flown in if we are to help the least of our brothers.

I find that quite cold. Perhaps they are the wrong color.

It’s perhaps the Twilight Zone that instead of earnest discussion, we are comparing the Pope to a Presidential Candidate.

Well, it has been shown that Marco Rubio, who I believe has a proper name for us to back up, has also been critical of the Pope.

Man, are we really going to compare Marco Rubio to the Pope now as a main argument.

That is absurd.

 

[gracepoole]

No one said such. I brought up that the specter of anti-Catholicism was brought up, no more, no less.

Granted, however, if one is posting editorials from the Washington Post about “anti-Catholicism”, that is being brought up. If I post an editorial on pancakes, that topic is being brought up.

That may be a point of contention with some people.

If the Holy Pontiff has said things that can be said to sound like Marxism, if the Holy Pontiff is in a number of photos with the rulers of Cuba and appears to be in good spirits, I don’t see why discussion must be limited.

One must be confusing me with someone else.

That sounds like a valid point.

Great. What I’ve gathered here is that because you’ve mentioned scandalous popes multiple times, I am free to assume that you think Pope Francis is also scandalous. It’s just word association, right? It doesn’t really matter what you’ve said **about **scandalous popes – just that you’ve mentioned them in this thread.

As for your suggestion that the Pope can legitimately be said to have sounded like a Marxist… Wow.

 

[Path_Finder]

Mr. Trump is an American, in this way, he knows the US better than some foreigners.

Perhaps the Holy Pontiff should say a funeral mass for the Americans who have been killed by illegal aliens. And then, give his compassionate reflections on that.

 

[pnewton]

I have not seen one insult to the Pope in this thread really.

Rules do not permit that. Such posts would be deleted. What is not deleted though are the links to insults. Two that I remember of the top of my head was a lady who said the Pope does not care that her loved one was tortured and murdered; and there was one that said Rush Limbaugh called the Pope a Marxist and stated that he was trying make America socialist.

One cannot insult the Pope directly, but he can be insulted in a link.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

To address Queenofhearts and Path_Finder

There are a few Catholics running for the GOP nomination, I find that Jeb Bush like his brother has a good Christian outlook on life. I think that Trump could learn from the leadership of GWB,

youtube.com/watch?v=liudIJFg8UQ

youtube.com/watch?v=YMiqEUBux3o

Notice how Bush, a Christian, correctly and honestly IMO like a Christian Knight of the middle ages would do…was noble and tolerate toward minorities like Arabs and Muslims in the USA and told Americans to uphold the values of America in the aftermath of 9/11. Look at how Americans(Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus) united after 9/11 under the leadership of GWB…this is something Trump can learn from. During the war with the Taliban, A Muslim Afgani man saved an American

youtube.com/watch?v=1gYyurUdy7Y

This and the 3500 American Muslims serving in the US army are the types of things that Trump and Trump supporters should talk about because it proves that American Muslims and Arabs, Afgani people, immigrants are not the problem… the problem is ISIL and other types of intolerant groups/people. I find that it goes against Christianity to support the deportation of 12 million human beings from the USA, and to support a ban on Muslims traveling to the USA… I wonder how some of the Trump supporters would like it if I said I support banning Jews from the USA , or supporting a ban of all Africans to the USA.

The Popes attitude toward refuge and migrants has been quite clear…its do what you can to help…this is a consistent attitude with Catholic teachings…it has always been give what you can to the poor and work against bigotry. Saint Francis of Assisi, whom the current Pope is named after…was such a tremendous peaceful man that Saint Francis was able to get a Muslim ruler to peacefully cede Jerusalem back to Christian rule. GWB never used the type of rough language that some GOP nominees have used toward Muslims, refugees, immigrants… as a Catholic who supports folks on the so called left and right I find that Trump and Trumps supporters are going against the Gospel by approving of building a wall to be paid for by Mexico, by approving of the forced removal of 12 million people from the USA, and by approving of a temporary ban on Muslims. It is wrong and intolerant for Donald Trump to call on a ban of all Muslims and a round up and deportation of 12 million so called “illegals”… Trump and his supporters have used rough and rude language when talking about refugees and Muslims in general…that type of rough and rude language that has openly been used by some Trump supporters is I think what Pope Francis would say is not Christian. The Pope was recently quoted as saying always thinking of building walls and not bridges is not Christian… Some Trump supporters have openly used rude language toward numerous types of minorities…that it what the Pope is against. The Pope is not against Donald Trump as person it seems, but the Pope is clearly(going by the Popes words here) against only building wall and not bridges, and the Pope is clearly for helping refugees and being open to different people(Pope is friends with Jews and Muslims)

 

[Path_Finder]

Great. What I’ve gathered here is that because you’ve mentioned scandalous popes multiple times, I am free to assume that you think Pope Francis is also scandalous. It’s just word association, right? It doesn’t really matter what you’ve said **about **scandalous popes – just that you’ve mentioned them in this thread.

As for your suggestion that the Pope can legitimately be said to have sounded like a Marxist… Wow.

NO, I have quit citing that because of this convenient interpretation of trying to UNFAIRLY accuse me of saying the Pope is scandalous. The ten commandments tells us to be truthful. Please cease from this baseless accusation. I believe this is a cruel unwarranted interpretation of what I said and by the way, here is that link again:

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

That essay on infallibility though, I believe does point out, that if one is always using as an argument, the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, not all Popes have been perfect in all that they have done.

As for the wow factor, I would appreciate perhaps if at some points, arguments can be made instead of just wows, bringing in xenophobia, anti-Catholicism and anti-Semitism.

Rush Limbaugh is not a Catholic, if we are so caring about people trying to cross our border illegally or those from Syria who we may be suspicious of, please point out where Mr. Limbaugh does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

[pnewton]

Sure, it doesn’t mean anyone else is calling a Catholic here “anti-Catholic” (debatable per all posts in total considered), it is merely saying that perhaps if one doesn’t agree with the Pope, they are “anti-Catholic.”
.

That is an interesting point, and one that would make a good thread in itself. While words do vary in meaning, I think I could make a case that being anti-Pope (not just disagreeing with him) is equivalent to being anti-Catholic, as the papacy is unique and integral to Catholic faith and morality.

 

[Path_Finder]

As for your suggestion that the Pope can legitimately be said to have sounded like a Marxist… Wow.

Go web browse for pictures of Raoul Castro and the Holy Father, to that I say “wow”.

Go web browse for pictures of the Holy Father with the Hammer and Sickle crucifix.

Oh, let’s not bring Marxism into this in any way.

Look at his statements, Mr. Limbaugh once said a statement by the Pope sounded like Marxism. Wow. Any statement calling for the redistribution of wealth can be called that.

Wow. How unfair.

 

[gracepoole]

NO, I have quit citing that because of this convenient interpretation of trying to UNFAIRLY accuse me of saying the Pope is scandalous. I recall the 10 commandments tells us “Thou Shalt Not Lie”. Please cease from this baseless accusation.

I hear what you’re saying but as I’m free to “ponder” and as you’ve raised the “specter” of scandalous popes, I’m free to draw whatever conclusions I like.

 

[Darryl1958]

Exactly. You can’t expect to enter the USA election without being spun by all sides. That’s the way it works. This is why religion and politics mixing usually does not end well.

Popes have generally understood this in the past. However, both Trump and Pope Francis seem to share some of the same personality traits, namely a lack of a filter. They both enjoy talking and saying what they want to say when they want to say it. Definitely, indulging in such a freedom is a luxury that can be very enjoyable.

In some ways that is very refreshing too. It is very exasperating to listen to public figures and have to interpret what they are trying to say when so much of the meaning gets filtered out. In other ways, it cannot help but lower the level of discourse to what one might expect on reality TV.

Filters exist for a reason.

 

[Path_Finder]

To address Queenofhearts and Path_Finder

There are a few Catholics running for the GOP nomination, I find that Jeb Bush like his brother has a good Christian outlook on life. I think that Trump could learn from the leadership of GWB,

youtube.com/watch?v=liudIJFg8UQ

youtube.com/watch?v=YMiqEUBux3o

Notice how Bush, a Christian, correctly and honestly IMO like a Christian Knight of the middle ages would do…was noble and tolerate toward minorities in the USA and told Americans to uphold the values of America in the aftermath of 9/11. Look at how Americans(Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus) united after 9/11 under the leadership of GWB…this is something Trump can learn from.

The Popes attitude toward refuge and migrants has been quite clear…its do what you can to help…this is a consistent attitude with Catholic teachings…it has always been give what you can to the poor and work against bigotry. Saint Francis of Assisi, whom the current Pope is named after…was such a tremendous peaceful man that Saint Francis was able to get a Muslim ruler to peacefully cede Jerusalem back to Christian rule. GWB never used the type of rough language that some GOP nominees have used toward Muslims, refugees, immigrants… as a Catholic who supports folks on the so called left and right I find that Trump and Trumps supporters are going against the Gospel by approving of building a wall to be paid for by Mexico, by approving of the forced removal of 12 million human beings from the USA, and by approving of a temporary ban on Muslims. It is wrong and intolerant for Donald Trump to call on a ban of all Muslims and a round up and deportation of 12 million so called “illegals”… Trump and his supporters have used rough and rude language when talking about refugees and Muslims in general…that type of rough and rude language that has openly been used by some Trump supporters is I think what Pope Francis would say is not Christian. The Pope was recently quoted as saying always thinking of building walls and not bridges is not Christian… Some Trump supporters have openly used rude language toward numerous types of minorities…that it what the Pope is against. The Pope is not against Donald Trump as person it seems, but the Pope is clearly(going by the Popes words here) against only building wall and not bridges, and the Pope is clearly or helping refugees and being open to different people(Pope is friends with Jews and Muslims)

And, the US already takes in, what? A million refugees a year.

Christians have been slaughtered, not just in Iraq and Syria, but in Egypt, Indonesia and Pakistan.

The Catholic Church codifies our responsibilities, this overrides others.

How about the Hungarian Bishop who was just named as calling this an invasion of Europe? He is a Holy Man as well.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Mr. Trump is an American, in this way, he knows the US better than some foreigners.

Perhaps the Holy Pontiff should say a funeral mass for the Americans who have been killed by illegal aliens. And then, give his compassionate reflections on that.

Wow…