Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music

[SD_Catholic]

And I suppose the only correct form of worship is the TLM. It’s not how we worship that is important, it is who we worship. The rest can vary. I think it is more important to get people to mass than to drive them away.

Well I think both are pretty important, but I do agree on getting people to mass. Although I would hope that the music wouldn’t be what drives them to their final choice. There are good traditional songs and there are some kinda “lame” ones. They may have wonderful words, but would probably be better off prayed rather than sung (atleast to the music they’re with). The same goes for modern songs, some good some not so much. I think for certain parts of the mass a modern song can work just fine if it has proper wording. Not that mass should change to meet the times, but I don’t think adding** proper** modern music to appropriate areas of the mass should affect the content of the mass unless people let it. I wouldn’t let it stop me from going if they had a polka band up there (not my favorite).

 

[fjacks]

I wish people who are critical of music in the liturgy would practice more humility. There are three collections of songs & hymns in use throughout the parishes of the United States: Worship…Gather…and the various offerings from Oregon Catholic press. There are hundreds of songs which address God and many others which reflect the Trinity. The notion that it is chant or nothing is rigid and unworthy of the nature of the catholic church. We should not be presuming to declare apodictally the “best” way to worship God in song.

Everyone should know that in the older rite there was barely any music. Parishes did not employ gregorian chant except by exception. Almost all Masses were so-called low Masses in which the emphasis was on efficiency. It was not at all unusual for a Sunday Mass to be “celebrated” within 30 minutes or less.

In the parish I serve, the faithful pray and sing with enthusiasm. I am not always happy with every musical selection, but I try very hard to work with the music director to employ music which reflects both the kingdom of God in our midst and the fullness of that kingdom which is yet to come. God and his kingdom are not just “out there” or “up there”, but in our midst. Music in Catholic Worship should help the faithful to realize this more fully.

 

[peary]

And I suppose the only correct form of worship is the TLM. It’s not how we worship that is important, it is who we worship. The rest can vary. I think it is more important to get people to mass than to drive them away.

**Maybe that is your own opinion; it certainly isn’t mine. I attend Novus Ordo. The Church would adamantly disagree with you - it certainly is HOW WE WORSHIP BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE MASS. You make it sound as if the Mass is no better than a protestant worship service.

I am frankly tired of banal music being used at Mass, and passing it off as if it’s the best we can do. You cannot love something you do not know, and that goes for music too. With all the music education in school, you would think that people would get more out of it than Haugen & Haas.**

 

[anamchara]

There are many legitimate points of view on liturgical music and development. I hope all readers of this forum will be respectful of those who do not see “purging” the church of so-called modern music as some kind of inspired decision. It is a practical decision well within the province of the Bishop of Rome, but is no way, shape, or form an exercise of any kind of infallibility. Shortly after he was elected, the Holy Father said that he had no intention of imposing his own tastes upon the whole church. I am still taking him at his word. God is glorified in all the ways that human beings can sing his praises. To suggest otherwise borders on absurd.

Thank you! :clapping:

 

[peary]

Everyone should know that in the older rite there was barely any music. Parishes did not employ gregorian chant except by exception. Almost all Masses were so-called low Masses in which the emphasis was on efficiency. It was not at all unusual for a Sunday Mass to be “celebrated” within 30 minutes or less.

OH MY GOD…THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!
.

 

[fjacks]

It is certainly true. This does not mean that it was true in monasteries and religious houses, but I can assure you the low Mass prevailed there for the most part. It doesn’t mean that in this particular parish or that one there might not have been a priest who enjoyed celebrating a more solemn form of the Mass. In those days, more solemnity referred in part to the music employed in the liturgy.
The exceptions for chant in most parishes were the solemn requiem Masses in which, in most places, an organist/soloist did all the singing and playing. The priest would sing “Dominus Vobiscum”, etc.

I am 66 years old. I have a distinct recollection of “attending” Masses in any number of parishes. From the time I entered the seminary I have also been told all kinds of remembrances by priests and others who knew the old Mass from childhood.

I have discovered that there are a number of people who never had firsthand experience of the church prior to Vatican II who have romanticized and idealized notions of what it was like. People shouldn’t confuse these reports with the way things actually were.

Why would 2600 bishops have traveled to Rome for parts of four years to participate in an Ecumenical Council and issue 16 decrees and constitutions if all was well?

 

[Nohome]

Everyone should know that in the older rite there was barely any music. Parishes did not employ gregorian chant except by exception. Almost all Masses were so-called low Masses in which the emphasis was on efficiency. It was not at all unusual for a Sunday Mass to be “celebrated” within 30 minutes or less.

Still happens in Northern Minnesota during hunting season. You can be in and out in less than 20 minutes.

Nohome

 

[peary]

It is certainly true. This does not mean that it was true in monasteries and religious houses, but I can assure you the low Mass prevailed there for the most part. It doesn’t mean that in this particular parish or that one there might not have been a priest who enjoyed celebrating a more solemn form of the Mass. In those days, more solemnity referred in part to the music employed in the liturgy.
The exceptions for chant in most parishes were the solemn requiem Masses in which, in most places, an organist/soloist did all the singing and playing. The priest would sing “Dominus Vobiscum”, etc.

I am 66 years old. I have a distinct recollection of “attending” Masses in any number of parishes. From the time I entered the seminary I have also been told all kinds of remembrances by priests and others who knew the old Mass from childhood.

I have discovered that there are a number of people who never had firsthand experience of the church prior to Vatican II who have romanticized and idealized notions of what it was like. People shouldn’t confuse these reports with the way things actually were.

Why would 2600 bishops have traveled to Rome for parts of four years to participate in an Ecumenical Council and issue 16 decrees and constitutions if all was well?

I attended the Tridentine in the Chicago area growing up. My experiences with it and with the music seems to be vastly different from the wasteland you describe.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

I wish people who are critical of music in the liturgy would practice more humility. There are three collections of songs & hymns in use throughout the parishes of the United States: Worship…Gather…and the various offerings from Oregon Catholic press. There are hundreds of songs which address God and many others which reflect the Trinity. The notion that it is chant or nothing is rigid and unworthy of the nature of the catholic church. We should not be presuming to declare apodictally the “best” way to worship God in song.

this is all your opinion. and maybe we non magesterium don’t have the authority to say what is the best way to worship God, but sacred tradtion and st. pius x declares how we should.

sacred musict has its roots in the apostolic age. you will not find “praise” music in any orthodox church or eastern catholic church–unless it is a latinization. appreciation for good music, like art, is something that is aquired through study and humility. it’s not entirely subjective. in fact, orthodox means those who worship correctly. the east has a much better understanding of how the law of worship is the law of belief.

let’s get to the revalent documents tre la sollecitudini. my favorite on sacred music

1. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity.

On these grounds Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the suprememodel for sacred music, so that it is fully legitimate to lay down thefollowing rule: the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.

all other documents concerning music must be read in light of this one. you can’t read a text from vatican ii out of context, it must be read in light of tradition.

it is wrong to say that gregorian chant does not have pride of place in the roman rite.

 

[Petite]

I am a member of the choir in my NO parish. I feel extremely fortunate that our choir director is TRAINED in liturgical music. I wonder if that is the problem in many parishes: the music ministry is handled by volunteers who are not formally trained (i.e., have degrees in music).

Just out of curiosity: how many of your parishes have professional full time music directors? That might be a a significant factor in the banality of music at your parish.

Our choir director has often said that many parishes sing “ON EAGLE’S WINGS” Sunday after Sunday! I believe that part of this is the lack of knowledge, perhaps, of other liturgical music.

Catholic congregations do not sing a lot–this has been my experience! When I was growing up (in the pre-Vatican II Church), we didn’t need to–we had the choir doing the singing!

While I don’t think we should have thrown Gregorian chant out the window, at the same time, there are many many people (besides Marty Haugen!) who are composing very wonderful liturgical music. ( As the classical radio station in my town says: All music was new at one time! )

I believe the Holy Father is a classically trained pianist. Small wonder he would gravitate to Gregorian chant!

 

[fjacks]

I am very familiar with various documents on sacred music which emanate from Rome or from the Episcopal Conferences. I am also aware of how the hierarchy exercises authority. A strong historical case can be made that the leaders of the Church have not and do not always exercise authority with the teaching of Christ uppermost in mind. He came not to be served but to serve and so he instructed his apostles not to “lord it over their subjects” as the pagans do.

Gregorian Chant is truly beautiful and uplifting and perhaps it deserves to enjoy a primacy of place in Catholic worship. Now I am going to state a simple fact: Most parishes in the US have never had the practice of employing chant of any kind in connection with Sunday Mass. This doesn’t mean that there weren’t parishes and other places where it was employed diligently and frequently, but the low Mass without music of any kind was the norm. In Germany, of all places, the tradition of hymn singing at mass arose because of the practice of the evangelical church (i.e. Lutheran). Obviously (given the Pope’s personal experience) there were places where Gregorian Chant was widely employed, but I don’t believe it was the norm in German parishes on Sundays.

There has been life after the medieval and renaissance periods and with it the development of various forms of music which people have used well in the worship of God, including our experience in the Catholic Church in the US since Vatican II. Many are the calumnies which paint all parishes with a wide condemnatory brush as if there are not many, many parishes using various styles of music to sincerely give thanks and praise to God. Mine is one of them. The people sing the entire Mass with great gusto and devotion and reverence. We know many different settings of the Mass which have been committed to heart. We do employ other songs and hymns but do so with an eye towards following sound liturgical principals. We don’t always succeed, but we try very hard. We employ some latin and some chant. We are looking to develop this further.

Now, I have a question for you: If we all began wearing bobby sox and rolled up dungarees, and if we found a source for Ozzie and Harriet episodes in order to watch them regularly…would doing so bring back “the fifties” in all their glory? Why anyone thinks that wearing old-fashioned vestments, celebrating Mass in latin, and using gregorian chant will bring back the “glory days” of the Church of the 50’s is beyond my grasp. It is not going to happen, and we shouldn’t even want to go back to the future.

 

[Petite]

FWIW:

One more thought on music during Mass: I heard or read somewhere (and I cannot remember where this was–sorry!) that the music at Mass was to reinforce the theme of the readings. At my parish, the hymns we sing reinforce the first and second reading, the responsorial song, and the Gospel–the music director sees to it! Once that was brought to my attention, the music took on greater significance for me.

 

[Roy5]

For what it’s worth, I understand that the independent evanglical churches are full of former Catholics, at least here in New England.

I’ve wondered why. Two or three reasons have been offered. (1) The notion among many young people - especially widespread in places like Ireland, Spain and Quebec where the influence of Catholicism has waned very quickly - that the Church had been oppressive. (2) A desire for a more emotional and less formal, prayerbook style of worship that can seem closer to Christ. (3) The music. The first half hour can resemble a rock concert, with worshipers lifting their hands up, clapping, etc
Just reporting what I've heard. Not sure how to feel about it.

 

[homewardbound]

For what it’s worth, I understand that the independent evanglical churches are full of former Catholics, at least here in New England.

I’ve wondered why. Two or three reasons have been offered. (1) The notion among many young people - especially widespread in places like Ireland, Spain and Quebec where the influence of Catholicism has waned very quickly - that the Church had been oppressive. (2) A desire for a more emotional and less formal, prayerbook style of worship that can seem closer to Christ. (3) The music. The first half hour can resemble a rock concert, with worshipers lifting their hands up, clapping, etc

 Just reporting what I've heard. Not sure how to feel about it.

I agree. Most Protestant services are much more like a rock concert with a moral lesson thrown in than anything like worship. Thats why I left that nonsense. How anyone can feel closer to God by clapping and holding hands with others instead of focusing on the words and really paying attention and meaning what you sing…is beyond me. IMO, its all about worshiping ourselves in most places. The focus is not on God anymore, its on how pretty the soloist can sound, how interesting the pastor can make the sermon/homily, or how warm and fuzzy the music makes us feel. The actual worship of God is vanishing. Its not about being on our knees and feeling close to our Lord anymore. Its not about experiencing His blessings and love surround us. Its all about us us us. What can we do to make ourselves feel better and ignore the messes? Lets just throw in some clappy happy contemporary music and sway all our cares away, who cares about worshiping God anymore? We are way too busy worshiping ourselves.

I really hope this catches on and cleans some so called Catholic parishes up. Music can be great, I’m a vocalist with 11 yrs lessons under my belt, but in some places its all about entertainment and the music is so loud cause the choir wants it to be all about them and so its so distracting one cannot even stay focused on the Mass. That is when the subject of music is just going too far. When will the Church get back to having God as its main focus?

 

[Generic_Man]

I agree. Most Protestant services are much more like a rock concert with a moral lesson thrown in than anything like worship. Thats why I left that nonsense. How anyone can feel closer to God by clapping and holding hands with others instead of focusing on the words and really paying attention and meaning what you sing…is beyond me. IMO, its all about worshiping ourselves in most places. The focus is not on God anymore, its on how pretty the soloist can sound, how interesting the pastor can make the sermon/homily, or how warm and fuzzy the music makes us feel. The actual worship of God is vanishing. Its not about being on our knees and feeling close to our Lord anymore. Its not about experiencing His blessings and love surround us. Its all about us us us. What can we do to make ourselves feel better and ignore the messes? Lets just throw in some clappy happy contemporary music and sway all our cares away, who cares about worshiping God anymore? We are way too busy worshiping ourselves.

I really hope this catches on and cleans some so called Catholic parishes up. Music can be great, I’m a vocalist with 11 yrs lessons under my belt, but in some places its all about entertainment and the music is so loud cause the choir wants it to be all about them and so its so distracting one cannot even stay focused on the Mass. That is when the subject of music is just going too far. When will the Church get back to having God as its main focus?

Self worship? Who are you to judge these people? Can you read their souls?

 

[Steeltemplar]

I sincerely hope that this is the beginning of a reform of the music in the Church. In my time as a Catholic, I have rarely been to a parish where the music was worthwhile. In many cases, it has been distractingly bad or poorly chosen. At one parish, for instance, the Alleluia was sung in a faux Jamaican style by a man who definitely was not Jamaican. In the same place, the Priest entered to a jangly pop praise song backed by a drum machine. The incongruity of the music with the solemnity of Mass was absolutely painful.

Going to Mass should be an experience which removes us from the secular world. If we try to make it more “exciting” and “emotional” by mimicking the secular world’s music, then how does that serve the purpose of entering a worshipful state of mind? How does pop music remind us that we are in the presence of Our Lord and God? How does it express the magnitude and gravity of His sacrifice? Or the necessity of repentance?

Being forgiven is cause for great joy. Yet I wonder how much we can appreciate it if we do not fully understand how much we need it.

Solemnity seems lost in today’s society. It is sad that this is so. Given that we have the rest of our time to listen to whatever music we feel like, why not have some solemnity and dignity for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I just love Pope Benedict XVI more and more… I also favor Gregorian chant and baroque sacred music.

 

[Roy5]

To Homewardbound:

 Hm! I don't think that those evangelical Protestants whose services can resemble rock concerts are removed from God. In fact, they seem to get all enthused about Him as they belt out praise songs that exalt Him. 

  Mainline Protestants, as a whole, tend to be more sedate, many quite liturgical (Episcopal, Lutheran), many others rather traditional (Methodists, Congregationalists, etc.). My impression is that there is a wide variation, depending on the minister, the music department, the background of the congregation, etc. Methodists, for example, can worship like liturgical Episcopalians or like informal Baptists.  

   What has caught my attention - at least here in New England - is the large number of Catholics who have left the Church, either to embrace some form of Protestantism or to ignore religion altogether. And southern New England probably is the most Catholic section of the USA with huge numbers with Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, Irish, Puerto Rican, etc. ancestry.

 

[peary]

Now, I have a question for you: If we all began wearing bobby sox and rolled up dungarees, and if we found a source for Ozzie and Harriet episodes in order to watch them regularly…would doing so bring back “the fifties” in all their glory? Why anyone thinks that wearing old-fashioned vestments, celebrating Mass in latin, and using gregorian chant will bring back the “glory days” of the Church of the 50’s is beyond my grasp. It is not going to happen, and we shouldn’t even want to go back to the future.

**In this month’s Homiletic & Pastoral Review, the article titled “Messing with the Mass: The problem of priestly narcissism today” by Paul C. Vitz & Daniel C. Vitz, the problem of the decline of the “sense of historical time” is discussed. They write, in part: “Narcissism as a mental framework is easier for individuals and societies when they are no longer connected to the past. It is the past that provides a framework fosdr judging contemporary behavior as good or bad, as appropriate or inappropriate, as traditional or novel. The historical past… is a person’s link to family and cultural traditions; it provides norms of behavior and moral strictures.” They also note that “as the past has faded from American consciousness, the capacity for narcissistic self-indulgence has grown substantially” (p.17)

I bring this up because you can most certainly apply it to the state of sacred music in the Church today, and I also think that it adequately answers your question.**

 

[peary]

   What has caught my attention - at least here in New England - is the large number of Catholics who have left the Church, either to embrace some form of Protestantism or to ignore religion altogether. And southern New England probably is the most Catholic section of the USA with huge numbers with Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, Irish, Puerto Rican, etc. ancestry.

**It doesn’t surprise me. The Bible says that in the last days there would be a general falling away of the Faith. **