Pope Urges Faithful to Long for Unity

[XtusVictor]

I know of four Orthodox priests who were missionaries to Orthodox countries when they were converted to Orthodoxy and entered seminary.
Please, go to Russia. I’ll help buy your plain ticket.

Nothing wrong with an evangelical doxing. At least they are one step closer to the Truth!

 

[XtusVictor]

XtusVictor;3111311:

I did not bring up past history. Somebody else did. I dont really see what that has to do with doctrine. But it is a good way to ger out of a conversation when you are feeling cornered.
/QUOTE]

He is not wrong. He is calling the Church to repentance. It can start with the faithful. But one day the Pope must address this. Doctrine is nothing without love. Love without repentance after a wrong is not love. Then again love does not do these things.

My goodness your propensity for mixed messages is astounding. How many surgeis are there? A moment ago you were preaching that we should not rub another’s nose in the past. Now here you go.

Do you want to rehearse history? I dont. But I can, if you must.

Well at least she doesnt have cancer…

 

[surgei]

My goodness your propensity for mixed messages is astounding. How many surgeis are there? A moment ago you were preaching that we should not rub another’s nose in the past. Now here you go.

Do you want to rehearse history? I dont. But I can, if you must.

Perhaps we should start a thread “Sins of Our Fathers” We are only aloud to put up what our Fathers in the faith did. And only if we are sorry for them.
Then maybe the pope will repent and come home to Orthodoxy where you will greet him with a hug as you converted to Orthodoxy while trying to convert the Russians to your falshoods.

Well at least she doesnt have cancer…

Good for her.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am the first plaintiff in a class action law suit against the Vatican Bank to recover $100 million in damages for the Vatican’s participation in these war crimes and money laundering the proceeds from their Serb, Jewish and Roma victims. Vatican lawyers have three times tried to get this case thrown out of court. The Supreme court has rejected their claims.


**Vatican, the Power Behind Ustasha**

The Ustasha ideology was intertwined with militant Catholicism. One of the most notorious commandants of Jasenovac was a Franciscan monk known as Brother Satan.
Today the survivors of Jasenovac and their families are suing the Franciscans and Vatican Bank for the post war laundering of the profits of Jasenovac, gold teeth and victim gold for the Ustasha exiles and the notorious ratlines. There can be no reconciliation until the real power behind the Ustasha, the Vatican, apologizes and makes amends to victims. Where is Dr. Zuroff on this issue? Conspicuously silent I am afraid.

When people are trying to get money out of others through litigation, I ALWAYS deem their statements questionable at the very best. I have participated in hundreds, perhaps thousands of trials, and I have yet to see one in which there is no perjury.

While the Vatican was trying to harbor Jews; while the Catholic Church was being persecuted in all of Western Europe; while the Nazis were hauling priests and nuns from the Low Countries off to crematoria; while they were killing every Polish Catholic priest they could find; while Hitler and his people declared that the Catholic Church was the #1 enemy of Nazism, these plaintiffs want us to believe the pagan Nazi Ustache was a Vatican organization! When the source of slanders against religion comes from someplace that was dominated by communists, who were very good at fabricating “historic documents”, there’s just no basis for credibility at all.

And these plaintiffs who no doubt want millions in their lawsuit, want us to believe the Vatican endorsed some guy who called himself Brother Satan! At some point, gullibility just has to yield to good sense!

Catholics could as easily blame the 60 million murdered under Soviet Communism on the Orthodox Church, which was thoroughly infiltrated by Soviet agents and canoodled with the Reds (in an uneasy relationship, to be sure) almost from the beginning.We could cite the indisputable fact that a Serbian/Orthodox saint was awarded a medal by Hitler himself; some say for his efforts in slandering Jews. It is just as easy, and just as wrong for Catholics to slander Orthodoxy for allegations like that, as it is for Orthodox to slander Catholicism for things like this Ustache business.

If (though I strongly doubt it) Orthodoxy really bases some feeling of moral superiority on slanders like these, then it needs to be thinking about its own sins.

 

[Volodymyr]

.We could cite the indisputable fact that a Serbian/Orthodox saint was awarded a medal by Hitler himself; some say for his efforts in slandering Jews.

I think you have found that such accusations of Orthodox working with Communists are as often contrived as accusations of Polish priests who worked with Polish Communists - these things happened - you did not live under such an all controlling society - I hope you would be better than we were.

Also you have slander St. Nikolai Virominovik Serbian bishop who in 1935 got medal from German government from hands of Adolph Hitler for reconstruction and maintaining of cemetery for fallen German/Austrian soldiers killed during World War I in Balkans. St. Nikolai spent World War II in the Dachau concentration camp - again this is a place that you have never had to deal with - perhaps you would have done better. But St. Nikolai heroically supported Orthodox christians in that horrible place - many of whom witness for his saintification.

 

[XtusVictor]

I think you have found that such accusations of Orthodox working with Communists are as often contrived as accusations of Polish priests who worked with Polish Communists - these things happened - you did not live under such an all controlling society - I hope you would be better than we were.

Also you have slander St. Nikolai Virominovik Serbian bishop who in 1935 got medal from German government from hands of Adolph Hitler for reconstruction and maintaining of cemetery for fallen German/Austrian soldiers killed during World War I in Balkans. St. Nikolai spent World War II in the Dachau concentration camp - again this is a place that you have never had to deal with - perhaps you would have done better. But St. Nikolai heroically supported Orthodox christians in that horrible place - many of whom witness for his saintification.

Ah, but the Catholics actually opposed the Communists and eventually overthrew them. The Orthodox did nothing to materially oppose communism. It is very telling that of all the nations underthe soviets, it was just the one single small Catholic country that brought down the system. And the Orthodox did nothing.

 

[Volodymyr]

Ah, but the Catholics actually opposed the Communists and eventually overthrew them. The Orthodox did nothing to materially oppose communism. It is very telling that of all the nations under the soviets, it was just the one single small Catholic country that brought down the system. And the Orthodox did nothing.

Poland was never a Soviet country - Lithuania was the only Soviet Catolic country. Those catolics of Lituania struggled with Orthodox, Moslem, Buddhists of soviet union and earned great admiration of Orthodox people.

Poland was a Communist country but not Soviet republic. Polish government, like Hungarian Czech Yugoslvian, were making their countries more tolerable than soviet state of Iosip Vissarionovich.

You were not here, do not condemn what you will never understand. I know many Orthodox families who sacrificed their sons, daughters, entire families in defense of Russia during World War II. My own father was crippled during War - you would say cooperating with Communist - and he was a miitary decorated man by soviets. But he was a good Orthodox Christian who had all children baptized at great risk to his well being and life. Your silly comments are sad - live a little more and then condemn others.

 

[surgei]

Your silly comments are sad - live a little more and then condemn others.

Perhaps following the mode of Christ and giving compassion first and condemning self above all would be better.

 

[surgei]

Catholics could as easily blame the 60 million murdered under Soviet Communism on the Orthodox Church, which was thoroughly infiltrated by Soviet agents and canoodled with the Reds (in an uneasy relationship, to be sure) almost from the beginning.We could cite the indisputable fact that a Serbian/Orthodox saint was awarded a medal by Hitler himself; some say for his efforts in slandering Jews.

If (though I strongly doubt it) Orthodoxy really bases some feeling of moral superiority on slanders like these, then it needs to be thinking about its own sins.

We are not superior by our sufferings. We are superior by the fact that we are the Church who has not bent has not changed.
Your numbers are wrong as concerns the number of Catholics killed by the Soviets. The simple truth is that their were 80,000,000 Orthodox killed by the communists. As Orthodox many of us know what our fathers, brothers and ourselves did to help the Comunism. As such we repent. Many of us, I am sure our good doctor as one of us, will take things we have seen done by our kinsmen to our graves as to painful for words.
What of the Archbishop of Austria that even made the Nazi Salute when he called for the reunification of the 'fatherlands of Germany"? Is he to be held beyond reproach as in a difficult time? This unspesified saint you reffer to… was he not just doing the work of the faithful and caring for the bodies of the dead Germans? That is the only Serbian St. I know that met HItler.
The facts remain, It was a bishop who sat in the parliment of the police state that tried to kill the Serbians. It was Priests who were in charge of the death camps. It was their own countrymen that the Catholics were killing then and in the 1980’s and '90’s.
To deny this makes you a collaborator with the coverup. A participant in the sin. It makes you intelectually dishonest. It alows you to turn away from the suffering your brother is in now. Bringing out these things is not a cry for money, it is a desprate plea for help. Help me deal with my pain and sorrow. Help me shoulder this bourden. When you pick up your own, I will help you carry yours as well.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think you have found that such accusations of Orthodox working with Communists are as often contrived as accusations of Polish priests who worked with Polish Communists - these things happened - you did not live under such an all controlling society - I hope you would be better than we were.

Also you have slander St. Nikolai Virominovik Serbian bishop who in 1935 got medal from German government from hands of Adolph Hitler for reconstruction and maintaining of cemetery for fallen German/Austrian soldiers killed during World War I in Balkans. St. Nikolai spent World War II in the Dachau concentration camp - again this is a place that you have never had to deal with - perhaps you would have done better. But St. Nikolai heroically supported Orthodox christians in that horrible place - many of whom witness for his saintification.

Vlodymyr, mon frere:

I did not say St. Nikolai Virominovik did what some accuse him of doing. I doubt it greatly. My point was that it is not fruitful for Catholics to say such things, based on what some “source” or other says about them. The very fact that Orthodox honor him make it seem very unlikely the accusations are true, and it is slanderous to call him a Nazi or an anti-semite just because Hitler gave him a medal. And accusations by those who have something to gain by making them should be disbelieved most of all.

In similar manner, it is not fruitful to identify the Vatican with the pagan Ustache. It is a slander to say that just because most Croatians are Catholic and most Ustache were Croatians, the Catholic Church should be identified with that pagan organization. And accusations by those who have something to gain by making them should be disbelieved most of all.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A participant in the sin. It makes you intelectually dishonest. It alows you to turn away from the suffering your brother is in now.

I’m sorry, and I am tempted to debate about the slanders you have repeated, but which you probably believe. But I will not engage in conversation with anyone who says things like the above. Look to your own soul. You have no moral right to judge mine or those of the members of any church. I will not address you further.

 

[planter654]

Poland was never a Soviet country - Lithuania was the only Soviet Catolic country. Those catolics of Lituania struggled with Orthodox, Moslem, Buddhists of soviet union and earned great admiration of Orthodox people.

Poland was a Communist country but not Soviet republic. Polish government, like Hungarian Czech Yugoslvian, were making their countries more tolerable than soviet state of Iosip Vissarionovich.

You were not here, do not condemn what you will never understand. I know many Orthodox families who sacrificed their sons, daughters, entire families in defense of Russia during World War II. My own father was crippled during War - you would say cooperating with Communist - and he was a miitary decorated man by soviets. But he was a good Orthodox Christian who had all children baptized at great risk to his well being and life. Your silly comments are sad - live a little more and then condemn others.

Thank you, you are right when you said…you were not here. Some people only listen to what they have been told. The same goes for what is written in our news papers some believe it to be all true also, you have proved that is not so.

Thank you God Bless

 

[surgei]

I’m sorry, and I am tempted to debate about the slanders you have repeated, but which you probably believe. But I will not engage in conversation with anyone who says things like the above. Look to your own soul. You have no moral right to judge mine or those of the members of any church. I will not address you further.

I have called you to repent. If I am wrong in brotherly love, call me. If nothing else for love of God who “seeks not the death of the widked but that they should repent and live”.

 

[planter654]

I did not bring up past history. Somebody else did. I dont really see what that has to do with doctrine. But it is a good way to ger out of a conversation when you are feeling cornered.

Gee, what do you think she has with all that blood?

I simply ask is doctrine not also really about history, what and the reason why Jesus Christ came because of our sins, how we were living our lives etc.

God Bless

 

[bobzills]

Ah, but the Catholics actually opposed the Communists and eventually overthrew them.

News reports indicate that Catholic clergy collaborated with the Communists. Polish historians estimate 10 percent to 15 percent of the 25,000 clergymen in Poland, the Roman Catholic bastion in Soviet-dominated Eastern Europe, cooperated with the Communist secret police.

 

[Volodymyr]

Vlodymyr, mon frere:

I did not say St. Nikolai Virominovik did what some accuse him of doing. I doubt it greatly.

Oui, mon frere RR des arcs, je suis d’accord avec vous. C’est frequement une probleme quand l’accusation est seulement “qu’ils disent”. Qui sont “ils”? Evidement "ils"sont les enemis de l’eglise chretienne. Je sais que les catoliques de croatie et les orthodoxes de serbie sont comme les catoliques d’EUA et les orthodoxes de ukrainie. Parmi eux sont les saints, parmi eux sont les terribles pecheurs. Et ironiquement pour nous, Jesus Christ aime tous, meme nous, les pecheurs.

Vous etes canadien? Ou-est “aux arcs”, en quebec?

 

[surgei]

Oui, mon frere RR des arcs, je suis d’accord avec vous. C’est frequement une probleme quand l’accusation est seulement “qu’ils disent”. Qui sont “ils”? Evidement "ils"sont les enemis de l’eglise chretienne. Je sais que les catoliques de croatie et les orthodoxes de serbie sont comme les catoliques d’EUA et les orthodoxes de ukrainie. Parmi eux sont les saints, parmi eux sont les terribles pecheurs. Et ironiquement pour nous, Jesus Christ aime tous, meme nous, les pecheurs.

Vous etes canadien? Ou-est “aux arcs”, en quebec?

Not only does Jesus Christ love all he is in all and forgives all.
Thank you translation bot.

 

[XtusVictor]

Poland was never a Soviet country - Lithuania was the only Soviet Catolic country. Those catolics of Lituania struggled with Orthodox, Moslem, Buddhists of soviet union and earned great admiration of Orthodox people.

Poland was a Communist country but not Soviet republic. Polish government, like Hungarian Czech Yugoslvian, were making their countries more tolerable than soviet state of Iosip Vissarionovich.

You were not here, do not condemn what you will never understand. I know many Orthodox families who sacrificed their sons, daughters, entire families in defense of Russia during World War II. My own father was crippled during War - you would say cooperating with Communist - and he was a miitary decorated man by soviets. But he was a good Orthodox Christian who had all children baptized at great risk to his well being and life. Your silly comments are sad - live a little more and then condemn others.

I am well aware that Poland was not a soviet nation, but it was “under the soviets” as I said…

I do not doubt that many Orthodox suffered under the Communists. But the Orthodox Church did not actively oppose the soviet system like the Catholic Church did. Orthodoxy was maintained in a reduced form and allowed itself to be used the the soviets. Those who were complicit with the Soviets could have been more courageious.

 

[XtusVictor]

Poland was never a Soviet country - Lithuania was the only Soviet Catolic country. Those catolics of Lituania struggled with Orthodox, Moslem, Buddhists of soviet union and earned great admiration of Orthodox people.

Poland was a Communist country but not Soviet republic. Polish government, like Hungarian Czech Yugoslvian, were making their countries more tolerable than soviet state of Iosip Vissarionovich.

You were not here, do not condemn what you will never understand. I know many Orthodox families who sacrificed their sons, daughters, entire families in defense of Russia during World War II. My own father was crippled during War - you would say cooperating with Communist - and he was a miitary decorated man by soviets. But he was a good Orthodox Christian who had all children baptized at great risk to his well being and life. Your silly comments are sad - live a little more and then condemn others.

One way to analyse the situation is who benefited. Today the Orthodox continue to oppress the Catholics in the former Soviet Union. And in the Ukraine, the Orthodox still occupy thousands of churches which belonged to the Catholics. This is immoral and unjust. The Orthodox inspired and benefited and continue to benefit from making the Catholic Church illegal in the Ukraine and the other former soviet republics. Shame. Shame.

 

[surgei]

I am well aware that Poland was not a soviet nation, but it was “under the soviets” as I said…

I do not doubt that many Orthodox suffered under the Communists. But the Orthodox Church did not actively oppose the soviet system like the Catholic Church did. Orthodoxy was maintained in a reduced form and allowed itself to be used the the soviets. Those who were complicit with the Soviets could have been more courageious.

That is so not true. Their are whole Churches that exist only because they stood to opose comunism. ROCOR is one of them. Don’t let the name fool you. Their were ROCOR bishops in Russia. Roman Braga is a priest who was in prison for a decade for his oposition to the state.
Do you really call the death of 80 million of my country men a reduced form. Think of that. This is considered an insultingly low number. It was by some estimates as high as ten times that.
BTW the Catholics did not actively and openly opose the comunists till JPII. Having lived in Poland he knew that it was in a self colapse. Not to challenge the courage of a dead man, but it is easy to pick on a dragon in Russia while sitting on a throne in Rome. Where was his condemnation of them when they still heald the power of life and death in his concern.

The issue is not one of whose fathers in faith was better or whose were worse. At hand is: Will we ask for and grant full and true non conditional forgiveness. Will we help our brothers heal.