Pope voices hopes for change in another lengthy interview [CWN]

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For the record, the accuracy of this interview is being called into question by Andrea Tornielli. Fr. Lombardi has commented on it too:

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/10/tornielli-calls-into-question-accuracy-of-pope-francis-interview-fr-z-asks-a-serious-question/
This blog seems to say that the transcript is allegedly inaccurate in one detail, so the whole thing is not to be trusted.

Hmm… Why don’t we just cut the journalist out of the loop and let the cardinals tell us what the Pope said. :rolleyes:
 
Maybe you should not listen to the news and just limit yourself to your parish, your family, your life of prayer and penance and your apostolic work in your community. If you are faithful in all of these things, you will be a great saint regardless of what happens in the news.
That may be good advice Brother.
I am increasingly concerned about Pope Francis’ ability to lead the Church.
I first read this interview on ‘Catholic News Service’.
The headline, and some parts of the article, sounded too much like ‘the spirit of Vatican II’.
Pope calls for less “Vatican-centric,” more socially conscious church
In answer to a leading question about the problems facing the Church today, Pope Francis answered:The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old… You tell me: can you live crashed under the weight of the present? Without a memory of the past and without the desire to look ahead to the future by building something, a future, a family? Can you go on like this? This, to me, is the most urgent problem that the Church is facing.
Unemployment and loneliness. That is more urgent than the loss of souls as people cease to attend Mass, accept artificial birth control, and even those who attend Mass do not necessarily believe in the teachings and authority of the Church?

If people start throwing quotes from news articles, from any source, at us it becomes difficult to witness to the truths of the Catholic Church.
 
I am increasingly concerned about Pope Francis’ ability to lead the Church.

[snip]

Unemployment and loneliness. That is more urgent than the loss of souls as people cease to attend Mass, accept artificial birth control, and even those who attend Mass do not necessarily believe in the teachings and authority of the Church?

If people start throwing quotes from news articles, from any source, at us it becomes difficult to witness to the truths of the Catholic Church.
I would encourage you and everyone, including my brothers, not to box in the pope. Allow me to give a personal example. I run a program for our archdiocese called Project Joseph. It’s a ministry for expectant fathers and fathers in crisis pregnancies. The end goal of the program is found in the name itself, to evangelize men so that they may be the kind of fathers and spouses as St. Joseph.

If we’re speaking about the day to day situation of my dads, I would probably say something like, “The biggest problem my dads have is a lack of self-control and discipline.” On another day, I may reflect on the fact that most of my dads are unemployed and have serous material hardships. I can understand the despair when an unwelcome pregnancy occurs. They need jobs; but they need education to get those jobs . . . and so forth.

I am by no means placing the temporal and emotional needs over salvation. I would expect that if someone who is talking to me and they see that I’m wearing a worn out habit, have a long grey beard, have holes in my shoes and put cardboard in the inner sole to keep my feet dry would get some kind of an inkling that there is more to me than social work. In other words, I don’t have to go to the soul each and every time I reflect on the needs of the people whom we serve. The fact that I don’t do so does not mean that it’s not important to me. It simply means that at this moment the fact the John Doe is looking for an abortion, because he has no money to support a child is a major preoccupation for me. If I start to talk to John Doe about chastity and sin, while he’s worried about his next meal, we’re going to pass each other like two ships in the night. I have to start where he’s at, not where I want to go.

In addition, I am still a human being. The soul does not occupy my attention 24/7. This does not minimize the importance of our eternal salvation. It’s simply a fact of life. Jesus made breakfast for the Apostles. Mary was concerned over wine at a wedding.

God became man to save humanity. We can’t just separate what is temporal from what is immortal and focus on the immortal. Humanity is both. As I said before, anyone who is looking at a man in a white cassock who happens to be the Bishop of Rome and the Pontiff of the Catholic Church should know that he is concerned about the immortal soul. Maybe, just maybe, at this moment he’s thinking that it is best to begin where people are at and progress from there rather than passing them as ships in the night.

Just as there is the danger of overdoing the social dimension of service to the point that charity is reduced to social work, there is also the danger of over emphasizing the spiritual dimension of man that one falls into Docetism.

I’m certainly not concerned with Francis’ ability to lead the Church. I think that he’ll do just fine. He won’t be perfect. We have not yet had the perfect pope and we never will. First of all, Jesus is not in line for election. Secondly, even if Jesus were elected Pontiff of his own Church, human beings would find something to complain about.

I do believe that we’re in for a very different papacy. I believe and have said this over and over again, that part of the problem here (not all of it) is that this man is a religious. He thinks like a religious. He is very attached to his religious family and its traditions. He uses Ignatian pedagogy when he speaks. He is the typical Jesuit, a public relations disaster, but genuine to the core. He will, if he lives long enough (he’s not that young) transform the papacy into a paradigm that is very Jesuit.

I can see this already. The Council of Cardinals is not a new idea. It’s an Ignatian idea. Ignatius always believed that the Church should be governed by the pope, but that the pope, like a military commander, should have a council, a sort of privy council. When he wrote the statutes for his order, Ignatius refused, I mean absolutely refused to use a rule of life as do other religious orders. His reason was simple. A rule of life is too structured. He wrote statutes that the Jesuits could change at any time according to their needs and preferences. However, he established that the order had to be governed by one superior general. All authority rests on him. He is elected by the order and he governs with a council. That council has no authority and no special place in the order. The superior must talk to the council, but the council may not dictate to the superior. The superior can ignore it. This council is a body that is totally off limits to anyone else in the Church except the pope. Sounds very similar, does it not?
 
I’m not inside his head to say that he is doing this deliberately or it’s just that this has been his culture for so long that it comes spontaneously. I don’t have that answer. I do know that if someone like Cardinal Sean of Boston had been elected pope, you would have a pope running around in a brown habit of a religious brother, not a priestly cassock. The Cardinal rarely dresses as a priest. He would probably be a pope who would refuse to chant at mass, because he’s never done it in his life. Capuchins do not chant, because St. Clare prohibited it. At best they sort of hum, if you can call it that, when the liturgy requires that something be chanted. I can’t explain it. One has to hear it.

Anyway, that’s my take on this pope and I believe that we simply have to believe that God does not revoke his covenants. He fulfills them. Therefore, the Church will come out of this just as fine or just as chaotic as usual. Depending on whether you’re a glass half full or half empty type of person.

I’m a half full type of man myself. There is good in every situation and every situation plays into God’s plan for our salvation. Whether we go along with the plan or not, that’s up to us. God lays it out. Very often it looks kind of disorderly, but it’s not. It’s just how it looks to us.
 
I would encourage you and everyone, including my brothers, not to box in the pope. Allow me to give a personal example. . . .Maybe, just maybe, at this moment he’s thinking that it is best to begin where people are at and progress from there rather than passing them as ships in the night.
Thank you so much for this explanation. I have been trying to understand why he said what he said. I knew there was something I was not getting.
I’m certainly not concerned with Francis’ ability to lead the Church. I think that he’ll do just fine. He won’t be perfect. We have not yet had the perfect pope and we never will. First of all, Jesus is not in line for election. Secondly, even if Jesus were elected Pontiff of his own Church, human beings would find something to complain about.
True. 😃
Anyway, that’s my take on this pope and I believe that we simply have to believe that God does not revoke his covenants. He fulfills them. Therefore, the Church will come out of this just as fine or just as chaotic as usual. Depending on whether you’re a glass half full or half empty type of person.

I’m a half full type of man myself. There is good in every situation and every situation plays into God’s plan for our salvation. Whether we go along with the plan or not, that’s up to us. God lays it out. Very often it looks kind of disorderly, but it’s not. It’s just how it looks to us.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. 👍
 
When aristocracy was the order of the day Popes preferred to be aristocrats, when monarchy was the order of the day Popes preferred to be monarchs, now when politics is the order of the day Popes have started to be politicians, but the living message of the Gospel is given a go bye in this process, and I prefer to see a church which stands up to the mission of Jesus Christ, and not pampering evil passions and earning public opinion. What is happening in the name of new evangelisation appears to be counter productive. People of good will, including Christians and non Christians looked up to the Church for guidance in moral matters, now these people are getting betrayed.
 
The good thing about this place is that your comments can be answered back. If someone is confused about what the Pope said, specify the issue and I bet we can find it addressed in the Catechism or some other Church document. It seemed like a great interview to me.
 
Unemployment and loneliness. That is more urgent than the loss of souls as people cease to attend Mass, accept artificial birth control, and even those who attend Mass do not necessarily believe in the teachings and authority of the Church?
Brother JR is on point with everything he had to say. So Reginator, I think that our Holy Father may be on to something. Why are people abandoning the Church? Or what prevents them from re-entering the community? Isolation. Communities are crumbling everywhere as the world becomes more globally connected. It’s crazy isn’t it? We can get in touch with someone on the other side of the planet and yet many people have never been more alone.

Where do people first encounter God? In Church? No. In their families. In the eyes of their parents and brothers and sisters. Young children learn about the faith from their parents. And yet now families are being torn asunder by social ills and spiritual disease. The elderly, who were once the foundations for so many families and imparted their wisdom to the next generations, are abandoned to the care of welfare sates.

How can anyone encounter God when they feel isolated from the rest of the world? As Br. JR said… how can someone preoccupied with finding his next meal understand the wisdom of the Church?

That is why one of our biggest missions as members of the Church is to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Look at Matthew 25 again! It’s all about caring for the temporal needs of our fellow man. Why? Because when we care for the temporal needs of the poor, they are opened to the message of Christ ever more. They experience love from their fellow man and are thus better able to receive the message of the love of God.

Without love we have nothing. Just a set of rubrics. Anyone can set up some rubrics.
1 Corinthians:
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love first. What we have globally is a lack of love. We are extremely permissive here in the U.S. but we so, so lack love! So we should start there. That’s where Christ started. Love. When we show love, people are open to the message of repentance.
 
Unemployment and loneliness. That is more urgent than the loss of souls as people cease to attend Mass, accept artificial birth control, and even those who attend Mass do not necessarily believe in the teachings and authority of the Church?
I hear you.

And if we become more “socially conscious” will it restore the *individual *loss of faith that secularism has swallowed? Will it re-instill a belief in the Real Presence and the power of the sacramental life? Will it urge more frequent confession in order to more easily recognize sin?
🤷
 
Thank you !!
here’s my confession: I kind of wish pope francis would stop giving all these interviews. Because look at the mess, every stinking time. But he’s not going to stop.
so our part is to slow the heck down, stop assuming the worst, and remember that the fellow is not speaking in english. Half the time, he is not being translated by people who understand even the basic teachings of the faith (even assuming that they’re not malicious, which they may be), and have no idea that it’s a really big deal to write something stupid like “the son of god became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood.”
 
Everytime I recover from something the holy father has said, normally by constantly reassuring myself that a pope could not possibly “mean that the way it sounds”, he says something else even more difficult to "interpret". There are Catholics practically falling over themselves to try and explain everything he says away but the telling thing about it is that they almost ALL interpret each of his comments differently.

I spoke to a missionary priest yesterday who told me he was “disturbed” by the holy father telling an atheist that he didn’t want to convert him. He said: “is the pope saying I’ve wasted my life”?

How could the pope not want to light up this man’s life with a deep and profound encounter with the person of Christ? Or does he not really mean it the way he sounds as everyone keeps saying, in which case is this a pope that just can’t stop being “jesuitical” about everything (i.e. never means what he says but says what he thinks will accomplish the greatest good - in his opinion)?

I have found this blog helpful in keeping me “sane” through these trying times. (“We read to know we are not alone.” - C S Lewis)

:confused:
 
I spoke to a missionary priest yesterday who told me he was “disturbed” by the holy father telling an atheist that he didn’t want to convert him. He said: “is the pope saying I’ve wasted my life”?
:confused:
The Pope probably hopes to silently convert the atheist without using the word “convert”.

I read the entire content of the latest interview, and the following stood out, although I am not sure if they are translated right.
**
You heard your calling at a young age?**
“No, not very young. My family wanted me to have a different profession, to work, earn some money. I went to university. I also had a teacher for whom I had a lot of respect and developed a friendship and who was a fervent communist. She often read Communist Party texts to me and gave them to me to read. So I also got to know that very materialistic conception. I remember that she also gave me the statement from the American Communists in defense of the Rosenbergs, who had been sentenced to death. The woman I’m talking about was later arrested, tortured and killed by the dictatorship then ruling in Argentina.”
Where you seduced by Communism?
“Her materialism had no hold over me. But learning about it through a courageous and honest person was helpful. I realized a few things, an aspect of the social, which I then found in the social doctrine of the Church.”
Liberation theology, which Pope John Paul II excommunicated, was widespread in Latin America.
“Yes, many of its members were Argentines.”
Do you think it was right that the Pope fought against them?
“It certainly gave a political aspect to their theology, but many of them were believers and with a high concept of humanity.”
 
Pope Francis has again caused a sensation with a lengthy interview, telling the Italian daily La Repubblica that he will work toward a Church "that is not just top-down but also …

More…
I just have to let it out. I don’t like the title of this thread. It immediately creates a negative, alarming presentation of the Pope’s interview. What’s wrong with ‘lengthy’ and ‘lengthy’ to whom and according to what requirements? Meanwhile it is a Catholic presenter. Extra, extra here is some more fuel… seems to be the focus not on what the Pope is saying. 😦
 
I just have to let it out. I don’t like the title of this thread. It immediately creates a negative, alarming presentation of the Pope’s interview. What’s wrong with ‘lengthy’ and ‘lengthy’ to whom and according to what requirements? (
I was struck by the term “lengthy,” too, because for an interview it isn’t really all that long.
 
This is becoming an EXCELLENT thread!
A lot of questions, opinions, and clarifications. We need that.

One thought that is with me daily that applies to this period of history as well as every other comes from a marvellous little book I often point to here at CAF (now available to read on-line) :
Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence

The quote that helps me is:
1. GOD CONTROLS ALL EVENTS, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD
Code:
Nothing happens in the the universe without God willing and allowing it.  This statement must he taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin.  'Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives' is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, 'and God intervenes everywhere.'
Even at times in history when we have actually had ‘bad Popes’ God has allowed it so that His Will may be done, and ultimately for the good of our immortal souls.
When I get concerned about the direction that the Church in the world seems to be taking I find comfort in the knowledge that God has allowed it for a reason that only He knows.
 
The Pope probably hopes to silently convert the atheist without using the word “convert”.
From the interview
Question: Your Holiness, you said that you have no intention of trying to convert me and I do not think you would succeed.
Answer: “We cannot know that, but I don’t have any such intention.”
If you are right the pope is being dishonest or at best, as I said in my post, Jesuitical, else he doesn’t want to convert an atheist journalist. This comment should also be taken in the context of his comments on proselytism and the absence of comments on “evangelisation”.
I read the entire content of the latest interview, and the following stood out, although I am not sure if they are translated right.
I read the entire interview too without reading any other news site first so that I was not influenced by them first. What stood out to me was:
I have the humility and ambition to want to do something.
Hmmm
Question: Your Holiness, you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that’s one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.
Answer: “And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
Newman pointed out that following your conscience is not enough unless it is formed correctly. An abortionist can follow their conscience and kill children. An SS soldier can follow their conscience and load what they consider sub-humans, in their world view, onto trains bound for death camps. I work in Africa and there are people here who will tell you they are following their consciences and that they spend their lives opening abortion clinics and making abortions more widely available.

Take the words of his own founder, “We should always be prepared so as never to err to believe that what I see as white is black, if the hierarchic Church defines it thus”.

NOTE: He does not say “other popes have said it, you misunderstood them/me”. He says: “And I repeat it here”.
And I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor, but God, the Father, Abba, is the light and the Creator. This is my Being.
I believe in a Catholic God, that is, a God who is revealed through the teachings of the Catholic Church more fully than through any other religion. Else what does “Catholic God” mean?

NOTE: Even if he meant something quite innocent by this, where is the virtue in saying “not in a Catholic God”? Having just called proselytism “nonsense” and said that he did not want to convert an atheist what is the context?
From my point of view, God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone."
This makes no sense to me. Is the pope saying he believes in universal salvation and where is he getting this language from? “ . . . at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone”? What?

I’m sorry if this post seems abrupt. I am genuinely confused by these and other comments that have been made of late.
 
In the article Pope Francis says something about making a change from the top down to horizontal.

And in the news they said something about the Pope giving the power to others. This is making me really unsettled!
That is a little ironic. You are questioning the popes move toward collegiality. The eastern Churches have worked well with collegiality for 2000 years.
 
I will admit, I had the wrong “interview”. After reading how this meeting occurred in the original article, I do not think it can even be called an interview and is likely highly editted, changed, or otherwise subjected to “journalism”.
 
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