Pope vows to study US criticism of his anti-capitalist rhetoric

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One is dead and in the process of being made a Saint. The other is a personal friend of Pope Francis, who is the final authority on Catholic beliefs. Remember we hold that the Pope “IS Peter” , the rock on which the church stands. He at least has the final say.
 
The vast majority might not be predatory, but it only takes a few greedy apples to ruin the entire basket. When they accumulate power and wealth, then what?
They ultimately die and somebody else gets it, usually several somebody elses.

Societies tend to restrain the greedy apples when they can. In some societies there are few constraints on them. In some there are many. But increasing restraint does not necessarily increase the societal benefit. As I said before, the Soviet Union was an incredibly restrained structure, but it was unspeakably corrupt as well.
 
One is dead and in the process of being made a Saint. The other is a personal friend of Pope Francis, who is the final authority on Catholic beliefs. Remember we hold that the Pope “IS Peter” , the rock on which the church stands. He at least has the final say.
So first you said read Scripture, now you say to read Dorothy Day. hard keeping up
 
So first you said read Scripture, now you say to read Dorothy Day. hard keeping up
Sorry but I read and study a lot I assume others do. Anyway late here so I’ll sign off. Good night and God bless.
 
Sorry but I read and study a lot I assume others do. Anyway late here so I’ll sign off. Good night and God bless.
It would be best if you would express your opinions rather than cut n paste scripture and tell people to figure it out for themselves
 
They ultimately die and somebody else gets it, usually several somebody elses.

Societies tend to restrain the greedy apples when they can. In some societies there are few constraints on them. In some there are many. But increasing restraint does not necessarily increase the societal benefit. As I said before, the Soviet Union was an incredibly restrained structure, but it was unspeakably corrupt as well.
One of the problems is that excessive regulation can keep rich people rich. If I were a young person without much money, I would probably consider becoming an driver for a company like Uber. Think about it, giving people rides ought to be a low barrier to entry business. If you have a reasonably safe car, a decent driving record and not an axe murderer you are probably pretty safe to give people rides. Of course, that bare minimum regulation is not enough for the taxi industry. They make it nearly impossible for the average person with modest resources to enter the business.
 
You cannot have it both ways accusing me of personal interpretations that carry no weight and when I point out I am in good company you then attack me for being in a collective group of socialist thinking Catholics. We share ideas in the same way we share bread and wine, at least in my Church we do. Now goodnight and Go with God.
 
You cannot have it both ways accusing me of personal interpretations that carry no weight and when I point out I am in good company you then attack me for being in a collective group of socialist thinking Catholics. We share ideas in the same way we share bread and wine, at least in my Church we do. Now goodnight and Go with God.
The Church has categorically condemned socialism It took two days of questions to get you to admit you were promoting socialism.You don’t share ideas by pasting Scripture passages and telling people they need to figure them out for themselves
 
I was responding to a poster who says we don’t have to go to theologian or church father that all we have to do is read scripture and tease out what Jesus is saying and the truth will be made known to us. Of course after two days of asking he has not told us one word about what his opinion on what the best economic system is instead instructing us to read scripture and figure it out for ourselves. Of course as with all discussions with those who adhere to Sola Scripture been they recognize no central authority my interpretation the Jesus of promoting capitalism is just as valid as his interpretation that he was promoting socialism
So it was a rhetorical device and not a sincerely held belief that Jesus is a free-market Republican.
 
That too, particularly since the rich and powerful often write the regulations that govern them.
And only the rich and powerful can afford the lawyers fees to guide them through that maze of regulations and red tape that are actually designed to keep the rest of society in place.
 
I would say that Jesus was more of a rambling vagabond, who gave not a second thought to making a living, or paying taxes, or even having two pennies to rub together.

He had zero interest in politics as well, although many of his followers were Zealots when it came to the possibilities that his charisma had to offer them for their cause.
 
I would say that Jesus was more of a rambling vagabond, who gave not a second thought to making a living, or paying taxes, or even having two pennies to rub together.

He had zero interest in politics as well, although many of his followers were Zealots when it came to the possibilities that his charisma had to offer them for their cause.
This is not quite what Pope St. John Paul II had to say in his encyclical Laborem Exercens (1981), which says in part:

*The truth that by means of work man participates in the activity of God himself, his Creator, was given particular prominence by Jesus Christ-the Jesus at whom many of his first listeners in Nazareth "were astonished, saying, ‘Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him?.. Is not this the carpenter?’"40. For Jesus not only proclaimed but first and foremost fulfilled by his deeds the “gospel”, the word of eternal Wisdom, that had been entrusted to him. Therefore this was also “the gospel of work”, because he who proclaimed it was himself a man of work, a craftsman like Joseph of Nazareth41. And if we do not find in his words a special command to work-but rather on one occasion a prohibition against too much anxiety about work and life42- at the same time the eloquence of the life of Christ is unequivocal: he belongs to the “working world”, he has appreciation and respect for human work. It can indeed be said that he looks with love upon human work and the different forms that it takes, seeing in each one of these forms a particular facet of man’s likeness with God, the Creator and Father. Is it not he who says: "My Father is the vinedresser"43, and in various ways puts into his teaching the fundamental truth about work which is already expressed in the whole tradition of the Old Testament, beginning with the Book of Genesis? *

Jesus of Nazareth was not a vagabond who never did any work and who vaguely expected working people to support him. He was out doing the work His Father gave him to do, knowing that His Father would provide for his needs. If what Jesus did was not work, after all, then why did the temple officials get into such a knot about it when he healed on the Sabbath? His Passion was also a work, the culmination of the work for which He was sent into the world. He said this clearly in the Gospel of John: I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do.** Jn 17:4**
 
I accept it was a miracle but not a magic trick. Jesus did not use magic tricks. As for Jesus teachings
“In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” - John 2:14-15. This story which shows Jesus’ rage against what is essentially corporate Greed, merging money with state & theological power, is also repeated in Matthew 21:12 (summed here essentially): Jesus walks into the temple courtyard and sees how merchants there change money, they have built their business up around what is supposed to be God’s temple. Jesus is horrified by the idea that God’s home could be profaned with money and the desire to be wealthy, he loses it, making a whip and begins turning over the tables the merchants are trading upon, he drives out the cattle being sold and screams a ton of insults at the people in the courtyard. Jesus was filled with righteous indignation at the idea of Church being involved with business, he was horrified that it could be used as a network for making money. Now what does that sound like ? A Capitalist ?
He did not “lose it,” and nowhere in the Gospel account did he “scream a ton of insults at the people in the courtyard.” He told them that the Temple was not the place for their commerce.

There was a landowner who planted a vineyard, put a hedge around it, dug a wine press in it, and built a tower. Then he leased it to tenants and went on a journey. When vintage time drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to obtain his produce. Matt. 21:33-34

Is that not capitalism? And listen to how the vineyard owner talks to the workers who resent those who were given a full day’s pay for an hour’s work: * ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? Am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ *Matt. 20:13-15

“Am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?”…is that not capitalism?

Scriptures are not full of prophets warning people that they face the wrath of God for owning farms and hiring employees rather than holding their land in common with everybody. The Scriptures are full of prophets warning people that God hears the cry of the workers who are not being given a fair wage. That is not capitalism and that is not socialism. That is social justice. There is a big difference, and the Church has always recognized it.
 
For those who note that the Christians of the earliest era of the Church pooled their resources, remember this passage:

*A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. He retained for himself, with his wife’s knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? **While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? **Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” *
Acts 5:1-4

According to Acts, Peter taught that it was perfectly OK for a Christian to keep control of his own private property, even in excess of his strict need.
 
The Church has categorically condemned socialism It took two days of questions to get you to admit you were promoting socialism.You don’t share ideas by pasting Scripture passages and telling people they need to figure them out for themselves
If as you say the Church categorically condemned socialism why is it that the Church is considering making Dorothy Day, a Catholic socialist with Anarchist leanings, founder of The Catholic Worker Movement in the USA, a saint ? Your anti-socialism is clearly not shared any longer by some American Bishops or by the Vatican and certainly not by the Latin American Church.
And Jesus words in the Gospels are not “pasted Scripture passages” but the basis of all Christian faiths or are you not a Jesus fan ? And if those “pasted ideas” suggest socialism who am I to argue with Jesus ? You asked for evidence of socialist ideas in Jesus Ministry. I gave them to you in his own words or in the behaviour of his early church found in Acts and you rejected them. Now that make you what ? I suggest when you dislike “evidence” you simply dismiss the Biblical texts as irrelevances. Where is your evidence for saying present day Catholicism condemns socialism ??
 
And if those “pasted ideas” suggest socialism who am I to argue with Jesus ? You asked for evidence of socialist ideas in Jesus Ministry.
Hm. One could raid the scriptures, quote them and find them supportive of almost any political philosophy, when in reality there is nothing so base and low as a political manifesto in the Bible. I don’t think we should give examples, but even the worst ideologies could be supported in this selective way.

The process could be used equally well on eg: the works of William Shakespeare which also contain a large body of commentary on the human experience/condition, and the concept of right and wrong
 
I thought was she always an anarchist: the type who would be sympathetic to the Kronstadt sailors. I don’t think she supported the Soviet regime though, or expressed assent to Trotskyism or a variant of Marxism-Leninism.

Still, I do not consider her a “revolutionary”, some who has sufficient fervor and devotion to be a party cadre or part of the vanguard, but she had little sympathies for counter-revolutionaries.

How would the the Church or the eclessia benefit if it effaces her far-leftism to render her more palatable to conservatives? Certainly conservatives would appear to possess an ostensible minority on sainthood and righteousness. However, what about those who have some far-left sympathies who feel alienated in the Church since its teachings do not affirm any of their values and they fell encircled by conservative Catholics whose primary concern is abortion and gay marriage.
 
Could Conservatives please explain what is going on in Acts 4
4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
4:35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
4: 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions were his own, but they shared everything they had.

Now I know some find it offensive to quote Scripture but that is where we will find the basis of our faith. I make no apologies for seeking to restore early Christian values to a faith and Church that lost 200,000 members in Germany alone in 2014 and who has lost Ireland and Italy and France as bastions of Catholicism. We need to return to the Pilgrim Church on Earth and follow what Jesus commanded us to do.
 
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