Pope vows to study US criticism of his anti-capitalist rhetoric

[FollowChrist34]

This is interesting to hear. You ve made me think from a different place.
Thinking aloud with you,I d say I d agree with your first paragraph trying to be objective. He sometimes sounds so clear that it feels one is perplex at persons not understanding him.
Now,if I go back in time,I d say that when he was our bishop he spoke to us as a people,Argentina,Buenos Aires,government issues…but now,I hear he has grown to speak to a wider audience. He is not speaking to us the way he used to,same style but different audience.He has become our Pope,if you know what I mean.
The " funny " thing is that we ( Argentine people) had a strong middle class which also suffered and still does between cross fire. What you describe in your US part of the middle class. And the new impoverished persons,are those who cannot eat the " bricks" of their homes ,are not used to welfare,or asking,and they are in big trouble.
And,as if you were my sister,and this is just my thoughts, poverty surrounding big cities,as Buenos Aires,has become such an issue overtime,that even if one is in some kind of trouble,they are in very bad shape.and we also have border issues which now exceed our hospitals,education…but,what can we do? Their reality is painful.
Take this as a conversation,just that. And it is just my thoughts.
And as Ridgerunner says,it is very painful for most of us,and many of us in particular( we are ranchers too in my husband s family) to see how our potential is being so hardly hit time after time,and it hurts that no matter how hard we try,the cycles bring us down to critical conditions time and time again. Agro was one of our strengths.
I appreciate these posts,they have helped me look at ourselves from your eyes. And think.

Thank you for your response - I like hearing from people in South America on CAF, especially Argentina. I don’t know that much about everyday life there. It helps me see things from your perspective.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What do you think of this article on the distributism and GK Chesterton and Dorothy Day? Are they talking about something different than is meant by 21st century distributism? Is the article off-base? Would enjoy your thoughts.

An important thing, I think, that nobody much ever addresses is the necessity of a “Distributist” mindset to anyone who wants to live according to it. I recall reading, long ago, a book entitled “The Millionaire Next Door”. It’s a bit outdated now, but a couple of points in it that I have never forgotten are: 1) There is no particular correlation between income and wealth. 2) Those who have acquired wealth by their own efforts almost always live below their means.

Many of us decry our lack of income, but we do not seem to think “living below our means” possible for us, notwithstanding that it usually is possible. Our consumerism is “death by a thousand cuts” to our desire to own property, and we know it, and yet we indulge in it anyway.

 

[stinkcat_14]

An important thing, I think, that nobody much ever addresses is the necessity of a “Distributist” mindset to anyone who wants to live according to it. I recall reading, long ago, a book entitled “The Millionaire Next Door”. It’s a bit outdated now, but a couple of points in it that I have never forgotten are: 1) There is no particular correlation between income and wealth. 2) Those who have acquired wealth by their own efforts almost always live below their means.

Many of us decry our lack of income, but we do not seem to think “living below our means” possible for us, notwithstanding that it usually is possible. Our consumerism is “death by a thousand cuts” to our desire to own property, and we know it, and yet we indulge in it anyway.

Part of the problem is that financial illiteracy seems to be real big problem. While cutting spending to increase you capital stock can be painful, there are simple things one can do to lessen the pain. Just think of how many people who either don’t sign up for or undercontribute to their employer’s 401k type plans. There is no simpler way to invest than that and many people fail to take advantage of it.

 

[xNoOnex]

US conservatives give more to charity as a percentage and as a dollar amount than any other group on the planet. And it’s not even close.

“American Conservatives”, unfortunately, aren’t the only supporters of right-wing economic theory. If they were, maybe the they wouldn’t be criticized. Yet the world is bigger than just America.

So? No matter how much money Bill Gates makes, his wealth won’t affect me or my standard of living. Focus on the “wealth gap” is repackaged envy.

This is an assumption on your part. Personally, I don’t think the wealth gap is wrong because I’m personally envious. I think the wealth gap is wrong because there are people, less fortunate than myself in the world, who suffer while people like the Steve Jobs and the Koch Brothers live high off the hog.

It’s not an issue of envy, its an issue of justice.

“Poverty” in America is vastly different than poverty for most of the world. The poor in the US have an obesity epidemic (let that sink in for a second). And people in this country are losing ground because of the massive spread of socialism in this country over the last 2 decades.

You are right that the American poor at least can eat, but I think you’re misunderstanding why the American poor are obese. I live on a very small budget and its very hard to eat healthy on it. Not impossible, but if you’re a single mother working two or three part time jobs to feed yours kids, its easier (and in a lot of cases cheaper) just to buy some **** off the dollar menu in McDonald’s.

Jobs are outsourced when it becomes too much of a hassle and too expensive to run a factory in the US. The EPA has been so ridiculous on companies with red tape and bureaucratic nightmares that it is easier to just open a factory on the other side of the planet, learn a new language, and ship their products across the largest ocean in the world. Think about how much hassle you would have to endure to make THAT an attractive offer.

Is it really too expensive, or would the CEO’s just need to cut their bonuses?

Define your “distributism”. Do you favor govt coercion and redistribution of wealth? Do you favor onerous govt or not?

This is another thing I wish people realized; you can be an outright socialist and not favor government redistribution of wealth. In fact, among left wing circles, there’s a lot of bickering between state socialists, left-libertarians (who favor a small government with social programs) , and anarchists.

 

[SWolf]

You are right that the American poor at least can eat, but I think you’re misunderstanding why the American poor are obese. I live on a very small budget and its very hard to eat healthy on it. Not impossible, but if you’re a single mother working two or three part time jobs to feed yours kids, its easier (and in a lot of cases cheaper) just to buy some **** off the dollar menu in McDonald’s.

So poor education and the breakdown of the American family is really the issue.

 

[estesbob]

Like Scandinavia?

Scandinavia does not have socialism. The means of production are privately owned. They do have a massive welfare state that shows signs of collapsing as their demographics shift

 

[zz912]

“American Conservatives”, unfortunately, aren’t the only supporters of right-wing economic theory. If they were, maybe the they wouldn’t be criticized. Yet the world is bigger than just America.

The prior poster I was responding to was specific to American conservatives.

This is an assumption on your part. Personally, I don’t think the wealth gap is wrong because I’m personally envious. I think the wealth gap is wrong because there are people, less fortunate than myself in the world, who suffer while people like the Steve Jobs and the Koch Brothers live high off the hog.

It’s not an issue of envy, its an issue of justice.

Why don’t you include yourself in that condemnation? You are among the top 10% of the world in wealth. Or is it just people richer than you who you think are “living high off the hog”?

You are right that the American poor at least can eat, but I think you’re misunderstanding why the American poor are obese. I live on a very small budget and its very hard to eat healthy on it. Not impossible, but if you’re a single mother working two or three part time jobs to feed yours kids, its easier (and in a lot of cases cheaper) just to buy some **** off the dollar menu in McDonald’s.

What a ridiculous and false claim to excuse laziness. No, McD’s is NOT cheaper than just buying some real food and making it yourself. A couple of chicken breasts and some rice or potatoes is much cheaper than 2-3 happy meals and food for an adult at McD’s.

This excuse needs to be shredded, burned, drawn, quartered ,and destroyed. It infantilizes the poor and gives them an excuse that their obesity is not their fault. Good, healthy food is cheaper than fast food.

Is it really too expensive, or would the CEO’s just need to cut their bonuses?

It’s really too expensive. That envy of yours is peeking through again.

This is another thing I wish people realized; you can be an outright socialist and not favor government redistribution of wealth. In fact, among left wing circles, there’s a lot of bickering between state socialists, left-libertarians (who favor a small government with social programs) , and anarchists.

It seems they don’t understand the political spectrum then, because that’s an argument between left and right, conservatives and leftists. It is NOT an argument among leftists. The left of the political spectrum is in favor of bigger govt and more govt power/control and the right side favors smaller govt and more freedom. Anarchists are on the extreme right.

 

[triumphguy]

It’s easy to drive by some huge house and think they are rich. Many “trust fund babies” try to live as they grew up and are leveraged to the hilts. That’s just the American way isn’t it?

I think once you get older, if your lucky, your values change. I don’t care what my car looks like, and I certainly don’t have to have the latest smart phone. I would rather not have to worry about bills.

Catholicism, combined with age I guess, has changed my views on possessions quite a bit. Oh sure, I do still have white down pillows and high thread count sheets but I don’t care about having stuff. In fact, I would like to get rid of as much stuff as I can. It is pretty liberating.

I agree. Stuff drags you down.

My definition of “Stuff” is anything more than I need or use properly. We have a piano that my wife and kids play, so it’s not “stuff.” If it sat there unused it’s “stuff.” Aquinas would call it excess.

 

[zz912]

Scandinavia does not have socialism. The means of production are privately owned. They do have a massive welfare state that shows signs of collapsing as their demographics shift

Yep, and those social programs are guaranteed to collapse. It’s just a matter of time, because math and laws of economics can’t be vetoed or legislated away.

 

[triumphguy]

Think of something as simple as occupational licensing regulations. So many of them are designed not to protect the public, but to protect practitioners from competition.

Just because there are bad laws/regs doesn’t mean we should get rid of the laws, but we should change the laws.

And there’s bad laws because the huge lobbies seem to have more power than the people.

 

[triumphguy]

Yep, and those social programs are guaranteed to collapse. It’s just a matter of time, because math and laws of economics can’t be vetoed or legislated away.

They are guaranteed to collapse because they contracepted their population growth away.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I feel weirdly fortunate in having grown up in fairly primitive circumstances in a part of the country that was, until fairly recently, very poor and backward.

And most of the people who live here are from here, so old and poor ways are not yet frowned upon. A joke around here is the way you tell a millionaire from a factory worker is that the millionaire’s pickup is older than the factory worker’s, but the millionaire’s gun in the gun rack is better quality. Lot of truth to it.

But that won’t last forever in my part of the world, though i hope it does.

It does seem to me that, at least in some rural and semi-rural areas, it really is easier to acquire wealth. First of all, nobody cares about your spending level. Secondly, there are opportunities. Young men and women haunt the country livestock auctions buying bottle calves to raise on rented land. Eventually, they acquire more and more. I know a young lady who works in a feed mill. Saved her money to buy a tractor, then a baler, then other equipment. She does custom haying in the evening and on weekends. It will take her a long time to acquire any substantial wealth doing that, but I guarantee that eventually she will.

Stinkat brought up the people who won’t contribute to their 401K plans at work. That’s just crazy. It will take them a long time to build up wealth, but they will if they stay with that.

Most wealth is the combination of living below one’s means, relatively prudent investing, and the passage of time.

 

[Latias]

Scandinavia does not have socialism. The means of production are privately owned. They do have a massive welfare state that shows signs of collapsing as their demographics shift

Thank you for calling Scandinavia for what it really is!

It seems they don’t understand the political spectrum then, because that’s an argument between left and right, conservatives and leftists. It is NOT an argument among leftists. The left of the political spectrum is in favor of bigger govt and more govt power/control and the right side favors smaller govt and more freedom. Anarchists are on the extreme right.

No, anarchists are mostly left-wing except, anarcho-capitalists. Anarchism is probably the most reasonable and respectable political philosophy since it realize that that state itself, especially to defend its interests and integrity is inherently repressive and authoritarian. Powerful states, including the US, have police, intelligence apparatus, and military-industrial complex to ensure conformity, thwart dissenting activity, and enable global hegemony. Moreover, the media, education, and popular culture inculcate one’s mind so one could be complacent about the authority and institutes of the state, even accepting it as an integral and positive part of their lives. Most people do not realize this because they have no quarrel with authority and accept the values imposed on by the state.

The Soviet Union also had repressive state apparatus, like the US, and so can rightly be seen as an impediment for human freedom, but its alleged atrocities such as tens of millions being killed, is just embellishment and propaganda manufactured during the Cold War, with the similar omission of the detrimental impact of US foreign policy.

The right is not about freedom; that is just sophistry on the meaning of “freedom”. Ask yourself how is freezing Iran’s assets in sanctions any different from expropriating the property of private individuals?

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Soviet Union also had repressive state apparatus, like the US, and so can rightly be seen as an impediment for human freedom, but its alleged atrocities such as tens of millions being killed, is just embellishment and propaganda manufactured during the Cold War, with the similar omission of the detrimental impact of US foreign policy.

The millions who were done to death by the Soviet regime are far too well documented to deny unless one simply wants to deny the veracity of every reporter of it, including Russians and the priests of both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I think, in order to deny their truthfulness, one would simply have to want to believe it.

 

[triumphguy]

Holodomor: Memories of Ukraine’s silent massacre

 

[Latias]

I regard the Holodomor as anti-communist propaganda. See Douglas Tottle’s* Fraud, Famine, and Fascism*.

Russia was subject to numerous periodic famines before Collectivization, such as the Famine of 1921. Moreover, the Famine of 1932-33 affected other regions of the Soviet Union. There was no Holodomor where the Soviet regime maliciously starved millions, but there was a famine, agricultural sabotage, and anti-Kulak operations.

eh.net/book_reviews/the-years-of-hunger-soviet-agriculture-1931-1933/

 

[xNoOnex]

The prior poster I was responding to was specific to American conservatives.

Alright, then.

Why don’t you include yourself in that condemnation? You are among the top 10% of the world in wealth. Or is it just people richer than you who you think are “living high off the hog”?

I don’t include myself, since my family simply makes it paycheck to paycheck every month. But we make it, and that’s what is important. However, there are people who aren’t making it.

What a ridiculous and false claim to excuse laziness. No, McD’s is NOT cheaper than just buying some real food and making it yourself. A couple of chicken breasts and some rice or potatoes is much cheaper than 2-3 happy meals and food for an adult at McD’s.

The dollar menu goes a long way, even for an adult. Rice and chicken can, too, sure but again… When you’re working long hours and just making it, chances are you don’t feel like cooking.

Was my mother lazy, after working twelve hours a day, five days a week, to not want to cook something when she gets home? I’d say not.

Besides, McDonalds was just an example; there’s a lot of other cheap food that isn’t good for you either.

This excuse needs to be shredded, burned, drawn, quartered ,and destroyed. It infantilizes the poor and gives them an excuse that their obesity is not their fault. Good, healthy food is cheaper than fast food.

Let me be clear here. I never meant to imply that they are not at fault. They are. However, it’s not a black and white issue. Thinks aren’t as simple as “chicken and rice or McDonalds”. There are a lot of factors involved.

It’s really too expensive. That envy of yours is peeking through again.

What you call envy, I call empathy. I won’t apologize for believing that no human being deserves to be a multi-millionaire and have a lot, while other people have nothing.

Not to mention I don’t have anything against people with money. What I do have a problem with is people who make a lot of money by exploiting others. Being ethical is a rare thing among the most wealthy of people.

It seems they don’t understand the political spectrum then, because that’s an argument between left and right, conservatives and leftists. It is NOT an argument among leftists. The left of the political spectrum is in favor of bigger govt and more govt power/control and the right side favors smaller govt and more freedom. Anarchists are on the extreme right.

Actually, it seems you don’t understand it. As another has said, anarchism is universally considered a left-wing political ideology and the whole idea that the “left favors big government while the right favors small” sounds like something I’d here on Fox News - and that no one else would ever agree with. (Unless, of course, you’re willing to call the PATRIOT Act supporting Republicans who support an invasive NSA “left wing”, in which case while I’d disagree with your terminology but agree with the idea.)

 

[mikekle]

I hope the Pope addresses the major greed here in the US when he comes, this is a HUGE problem, its wreaking havoc in many peoples lives, including catholics, consumerism, materialism, etc, its all out of control here in the US, and it has spread to many other nations, now, there are people in 3rd world countries wanting Levis jeans, all the popular goods americans have.

I think bringing up how many US christians celebrate christmas would be a good place to start, its all about the gifts, even with catholic school kids, they may not directly admit it, but that is what they are excited about, they make a HUGE deal over their christmas wish lists, and they all include pricey things all the other kids have.

Maybe a statement from the Pope encouraging people to tone it down a bit and quit ‘falling for’ all the retail sales gimmicks, tricks to get people in the door, because we can be sure those retailers dont give a hoot about the true meaning of Christmas, they just want as many shoppers as possible, buying as much as possible, they only care about MONEY…this is a problem.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I guess I would just say that my point is that he inadvertently often neglects the middle class…

Worse than that, he ill serves the poor in his attacks on capitalism which, for all the benefits it brings to the rich and middle classes, does its greatest work for the poor.

 

[graciew]

What neither a capitalist or a socialist economy is capable of supporting is widespread bureaucratic corruption, and the system of payoffs that exist across the third world.
The main difference between South American and Mexico compared to North America is the corruption that is at the heart of virtually any South American economy. The main similarity between the economies of North America and Europe and Australia is the lack of corruption.
Sweden tends socialist, and does well enough, and America at one time tended to capitalism, and likewise poverty was held at bay. The main factor in perpetual poverty for a country correlates to the amount of corruption that makes a meritocracy impossible.
.

Though I am reluctant to addressing South America as if we were " all the same" ,cause our countries differ in many ways,I do agree with you that corruption is a big issue.
What makes things worse,at least where I live,is that it is widespread at higher levels,those whom the Pope so often addresses should be held to a higher standard,and it became a sort of " why pay if it s going to end in their purses" for a vast majority of the population.
So the ones who pay are overburdened with taxes. Among others …
Poverty has different causes, and it has often been a political decision to keep it that way,but greed is at its base.
The thing is that face to face,nothing explains why I was born somewhere where I have a bed,and food and warmth and somebody just like me sleeps under tin and cardboard walls. It is something one cannot deal with from a theory,at least for me. When persons have a face and a name,it is about that person and I and not " the poor". Maybe I am not being clear.