Pope Warns Against New Colonialism: Corporations, Loan Agencies, and Austerity Measures That Hurt Poor

[sallybutler]

I hate leftism because it hurts people.

Leftism makes charity nearly impossible because it makes individuals slave of the government.

Of course, one could say the right makes one slaves of mammon (aka money).

 

[ProVobis]

Oh, I forgot, the U.S. is no longer a democracy.

It was actually set up as a republic, if it means anything.

 

[Thomas_White]

It was actually set up as a republic, if it means anything.

I gather it once meant something, in the time when the U.S. actually was a Republic consisting of individual states. But I wouldn’t want to have to try to defend the argument that this is any longer the reality. Back in those days, when it was the case, one could have simply pointed to the Constitution of the United States. Good luck with that it would seem in the year 2015.

 

[Thomas_White]

So I guess if one hates leftism, then perhaps he/she isn’t really a Catholic ? Does that make sense ?? Or it would be like a Catholic who hates Catholicism.

I’ve often wondered myself but have alway ended up taking it with a grain of salt. What to make of it when there appears a manifest inability to comprehend a thing as elementary as the fact that the word “socialism” is not necessarily a reference to Marxism but is rather an ancient word with many definitions, more than a few of which are in alignment with Catholic social teaching as well as the Gospel itself?

While this is a misunderstanding of Catholicism, it is at least understandable. It is something else, however, when it is an obstinate attempt to reinterpret the teachings of the Church to suit one’s own political persuasion. And that I think crosses a line.

 

[lynnvinc]

It was actually set up as a republic, if it means anything.

Yes, that means a lot.

I’ve been looking into various issues re how regular people might be able to stop LULUs (locally unwanted land uses), like someone buys some property in your town and they put up a factory pig farm, or frack. They have the right to do so, bec the Constitution was written by rich property owners, for rich property owners.

The American Revolution was about getting rights for the rich property owners so they could gain control over their lands and property (away from the king of England), and freedom to do what they will with these. Back then it wasn’t too much of an issue for the poor and landless living in the vicinity. Now it is, with all the highly toxic and polluting operations…

Then later in the 1800s we made corporations into people with rights – even tho they lack ability to be moral (they only have to ensure profits for share-holders or they can be sued for fiduciary irresponsibility) and they can’t die like real humans (however, they can reincarnate if faced with lawsuits that might put them out of business, hide their assets and resurrect as a new company).



And slowly throughout the decades and centuries any notions of “community rights to self-governance” were completely overturned.

Now Texas has preemptively taken away the right of municipalities to ban fracking.

When we were in Aurora, IL some concerned mothers got together and got the city to pass a pesticide spraying notification ordinance. People could spray as much as they liked, but they would have to notify those contiguous neighbors who signed up on the list as to when they would be spraying – so people could close their windows, or go away for a day if they were terribly health-compromised. It was overturned, preempted by IL State; and the petro-chemical industry had a bill ready to go at the federal level to preempt, if the states ones didn’t work.

And good luck suing Monsanto and Exxon for harms they may have caused.

It’s really eye-opening, but you can see it here: “Thomas Linzey of the CELDF Explains why the constitution is for Rich People” at youtube.com/watch?v=kjYT-RObWv4

And check out the resources on the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund’s webpage, celdf.org

See esp “The Right to Local Self-Government” celdf.org/the-right-to-local-self-government

I think this gets at some of the issues re the OP. The situation if very bad in the U.S., much worse than you or the Pope may think, but it is extremely dire and deadly in 3rd world countries where multinationals are moving in and doing what they will to maximize profits without any regard for human life or well-being.

These types of things don’t make the nightly news, bec guess who sponsors the corporate media such as ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, etc? Guess who is corrupting and brain-washing the people?

 

[lynnvinc]

I’ve often wondered myself but have alway ended up taking it with a grain of salt. What to make of it when there appears a manifest inability to comprehend a thing as elementary as the fact that the word “socialism” is not necessarily a reference to Marxism but is rather an ancient word with many definitions, more than a few of which are in alignment with Catholic social teaching as well as the Gospel itself?

While this is a misunderstanding of Catholicism, it is at least understandable. It is something else, however, when it is an obstinate attempt to reinterpret the teachings of the Church to suit one’s own political persuasion. And that I think crosses a line.

Well, anyway, now the evil word is “socialism,” whereas in my day it was “communism.”

So I guess that means that all those “socialist” countries in Europe are evil by right-wing extremist thought.

Another thing. I may be wrong, but I think politics in the U.S. has shifted way to the right, so anything that was centrist in the past is now considered socialist. Eisenhower and Nixon would probably be considered a flaming liberals by today’s standards.

And I think we have been bashing Marx at bit too much, without looking at all his ideas, some of which are good, especially found in his early writings (which weren’t translated into English until much later). That doesn’t mean we have to accept his whole message, lock, stock, and barrel. But, as Gandhi would say, it is good to seek out the good points of one’s opponents.

There are 3 main schools of social theory in sociology (and a 4th one very small now), one being conflict theory, which is based on Marxism and related ideas. I have been and still am a “structural functionalist” and have not become a conflict theorist, but I do like some of Marx’s ideas, such as “alienation,” his concepts of “product” v. “commodity,” and his writings about nature; my main objection to conflict theory is that I’m not a social or material determinist. I think Marx’s ideas came out of Christianity to some extent – his father was a convert to Lutheranism – applied to the extremely egregious factory working conditions of his day – which even the Church condemned.

As an anthropologist, I’m also aware of several other economic systems, aside from capitalism and communism…both of which I consider harmful to the environment and human life, entwined as they both are with industrialization’s ignoring of its downside of toxic pollution and resource depletion.

It is limited thinking that we have to choose between “red” conservative Republican and “blue” progressive Democrat. What about “green” (as in concern about environmental harms that should be everyone’s concern, red or blue), or “yellow” (the papal flag color).

 

[shockerfan]

Yes, that means a lot.

I’ve been looking into various issues re how regular people might be able to stop LULUs (locally unwanted land uses), like someone buys some property in your town and they put up a factory pig farm, or frack. They have the right to do so, bec the Constitution was written by rich property owners, for rich property owners.

The American Revolution was about getting rights for the rich property owners so they could gain control over their lands and property (away from the king of England), and freedom to do what they will with these. Back then it wasn’t too much of an issue for the poor and landless living in the vicinity. Now it is, with all the highly toxic and polluting operations…

Then later in the 1800s we made corporations into people with rights – even tho they lack ability to be moral (they only have to ensure profits for share-holders or they can be sued for fiduciary irresponsibility) and they can’t die like real humans (however, they can reincarnate if faced with lawsuits that might put them out of business, hide their assets and resurrect as a new company).

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltqm7feV8I1qksnmc.jpg

And slowly throughout the decades and centuries any notions of “community rights to self-governance” were completely overturned.

Now Texas has preemptively taken away the right of municipalities to ban fracking.

When we were in Aurora, IL some concerned mothers got together and got the city to pass a pesticide spraying notification ordinance. People could spray as much as they liked, but they would have to notify those contiguous neighbors who signed up on the list as to when they would be spraying – so people could close their windows, or go away for a day if they were terribly health-compromised. It was overturned, preempted by IL State; and the petro-chemical industry had a bill ready to go at the federal level to preempt, if the states ones didn’t work.

And good luck suing Monsanto and Exxon for harms they may have caused.

It’s really eye-opening, but you can see it here: “Thomas Linzey of the CELDF Explains why the constitution is for Rich People” at youtube.com/watch?v=kjYT-RObWv4

And check out the resources on the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund’s webpage, celdf.org

See esp “The Right to Local Self-Government” celdf.org/the-right-to-local-self-government

I think this gets at some of the issues re the OP. The situation if very bad in the U.S., much worse than you or the Pope may think, but it is extremely dire and deadly in 3rd world countries where multinationals are moving in and doing what they will to maximize profits without any regard for human life or well-being.

These types of things don’t make the nightly news, bec guess who sponsors the corporate media such as ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, etc? Guess who is corrupting and brain-washing the people?

Does the constitution really mean anything? Isn’t the law of the land really anything 5 out of 9 judges say it is despite the constitution?

 

[ProVobis]

The American Revolution was about getting rights for the rich property owners so they could gain control over their lands and property (away from the king of England), and freedom to do what they will with these.

You sure about that? It seems some of those who owned property (and were content to paying taxes to King George) were the ones to risk losing it all to the revolutionists. There was resistance, after all.

 

[Thomas_White]

And I think we have been bashing Marx at bit too much, without looking at all his ideas, some of which are good, especially found in his early writings (which weren’t translated into English until much later). That doesn’t mean we have to accept his whole message, lock, stock, and barrel. But, as Gandhi would say, it is good to seek out the good points of one’s opponents.

There are 3 main schools of social theory in sociology (and a 4th one very small now), one being conflict theory, which is based on Marxism and related ideas. I have been and still am a “structural functionalist” and have not become a conflict theorist, but I do like some of Marx’s ideas, such as “alienation,” his concepts of “product” v. “commodity,” and his writings about nature; my main objection to conflict theory is that I’m not a social or material determinist. I think Marx’s ideas came out of Christianity to some extent – his father was a convert to Lutheranism – applied to the extremely egregious factory working conditions of his day – which even the Church condemned.

Sure, and dialectical materialism evolved from the philosophy of Hegel. I recently read that Romano Guardini, a Catholic priest and theologian who was a favorite of John Paul II and whose theology is prominent in Laudato Si’, developed a theory of dialectics (presumably without setting Hegel on his head) where the thesis and antithesis are not in contention as it were.

I’m not sure how that would work though, as I’ve long thought this friction was the dynamic that propels history (in the way it propels discussion on this very thread ) and would necessarily continue until time’s end.

I’ll have to find that book.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Of course, one could say the right makes one slaves of mammon (aka money).

You could say many false things and accomplish nothing.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Two billion? If that were true, it would represent nearly 30% of the entire population of the earth. One could render the statement true, I imagine, by using a convienent definition of “extreme poverty”. But even at that, lifted from “extreme poverty” to what? Just plain old everyday poverty?

The pope is not attacking capitalism nor he is a Socialist, not when the word “socialist” means the political philosophy of Karl Marx. From what he has said in *Laudato Si’ it would be more accurate to say Pope Francis opposes laissez-faire capitalism and unregulated markets, those markets that are in reality controlled by wealth and power.

Free market capitalism is a myth, a system in that in the U.S. is indeed regulated but would more accurately be described as “fixed”. Does one really suppose Wall Street would embrace a free market rather than one they could manipulate?

The myth that leftist, including you, propagate is that free markets have no regulations.

Here’s a link, and you could find others, regarding the two billion pulled out of extreme poverty. That’s a great start, let’s not screw it up!

 

[graciew]

The myth that leftist, including you, propagate is that free markets have no regulations.

Here’s a link, and you could find others, regarding the two billion pulled out of extreme poverty. That’s a great start, let’s not screw it up!

So that we read again what extreme poverty is.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty

Extreme poverty, or absolute poverty, was originally defined by the United Nations in 1995 as “a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services.”[2] Currently, extreme poverty widely refers to earning below the international poverty line of $1.25/day (in 2005 prices), set by the World Bank. This measure is the equivalent to earning $1.00 a day in 1996 US prices, hence the widely used expression, living on “less than a dollar a day.”[3[/COLOR]

We look foward to receiving our salaries…I wonder how so many people can wait. If Jesus is not holding them close to His heart,who then?
Not trying to interfere with your point or other 's ,Chesterton,just wondering.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

So that we read again what extreme poverty is.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty

Extreme poverty, or absolute poverty, was originally defined by the United Nations in 1995 as “a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services.”[2] Currently, extreme poverty widely refers to earning below the international poverty line of $1.25/day (in 2005 prices), set by the World Bank. This measure is the equivalent to earning $1.00 a day in 1996 US prices, hence the widely used expression, living on “less than a dollar a day.”[3[/COLOR]

We look foward to receiving our salaries…I wonder how so many people can wait. If Jesus is not holding them close to His heart,who then?
Not trying to interfere with your point or other 's ,Chesterton,just wondering.

Let’s not reverse the progress that has been made. Promoting new unnecessary regulations on fossil fuels and increasing government mandates will hurt the poor.

 

[philipl]

The Pope is only preaching traditional Christian and therefore Catholic views on economics. As a Catholic and a socialist I tire of Catholics wedded to Protestant economic thinking. Christian communities need to share wealth as did Jesus and his followers if you read the Gospels. The sharing of loaves and fishes is Jesus teaching us to do likewise. The instruction to help the poor, the needy, the homeless and the less fortunate is not a suggestion but stands at the heart of the Gospels and Jesus teaching of the nature of The Kingdom of God. Pope Francis’ views on economics are Old Catholic views rather than the Capitalist Protestant views of his critics. I, as a Catholic socialist, make no apologies for following this Pope and Christ’s instructions. Remember my comrades it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a Rich Capitalist to get into Heaven. Who said that ? Not Marx, but Jesus whom we are as Christians obliged to follow.

I am curious, what do you do for a living? You see, I work for one of those corporations the Pope seems to be so critical of in some many of his speeches. My wife also works for one of those corporations. We dont work for the government, we dont get our pay checks from a church job, we dont earn a living working for an organization that needs donations to fund itself. We have to help create a product that people want to buy.

 

[graciew]

. We have to help create a product that people want to buy.

That is a problem. Too many " I want" .
The Pope is speaking about " need" .

And what do government,church and and all those jobs and pay checks have to do? How is yours any better than that of somebody who sweeps the floor of the church? Or should that one be volunteer and yours paid for? I do not get what you are trying to say.

 

[Thomas_White]

I am curious, what do you do for a living? You see, I work for one of those corporations the Pope seems to be so critical of in some many of his speeches. My wife also works for one of those corporations. We dont work for the government, we dont get our pay checks from a church job, we dont earn a living working for an organization that needs donations to fund itself. We have to help create a product that people want to buy.

I don’t get what you are trying to say either. Where in any of the speeches in which you say the pope seems to be so critical of corporations is he critical of those who work for them? That isn’t the point at all. They are the very ones he IS supporting.

I really don’t think the pope is suggesting that anyone should quit their job as a way to resolve poverty.

 

[Thomas_White]

The myth that leftist, including you, propagate is that free markets have no regulations.

I honestly don’t understand what it is you are trying to say. How could my saying that supposed free markets are “indeed regulated” be understood as my propagating the myth that free markets have no regulations?

 

[philipl]

That is a problem. Too many " I want" .
The Pope is speaking about " need" .

Are you trying to say we need to do away with many of the jobs that provide “wants”?

 

[utah_rose]

My neighbor whose job was outsourced overseas by the corporation where he had worked for twenty-five years is now poor because of socialism? I don’t think so.

You are so right! Outsourcing jobs is the new way to layoff employees. The company I worked for also did this! They also contracted workers and paid them high wages sans benefits.

 

[philipl]

I don’t get what you are trying to say either. Where in any of the speeches in which you say the pope seems to be so critical of corporations is he critical of those who work for them? That isn’t the point at all. They are the very ones he IS supporting.

I really don’t think the pope is suggesting that anyone should quit their job as a way to resolve poverty.

The Pope is clearly anti-capitalistic. He have seldom ever spoken of the middle class. He comes from a country where the government is extremely corrupt. You can not have corporations unless there are people that work for them. I for one am very very very very glad there are corporations. I dont see them as a bad thing.