Pope warns Catholic politicians who back abortion

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GreenJeans said:
I am looking at this from the perspective of the voters and the opposition, not from the personal perspective of the Catholic politician.

I don’t really care what they do. Their conscience is their own business. However, I do propose that if they do change position after the pope tells them to, it will be perceived they are following the pope’s orders, and that will lead to defeat at the polls.
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Now, I understand. I wasn’t clear from your earlier posts that you were talking about current politicians changing their views because of the pope’s statement.

Those politicians would probably lose their next election, and I have no problem with that.

It is important to note though that I am not asking these politicians to change their stances based on what the pope says. I am asking them to examine their conscience, so they can understand that the Church is correct and then live their political lives accordingly.

They may still have a future as pro-life politicians, but even that can be rough as the criticisms of Romney being a “flip-flopper” shows.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Which would hardly bring tears to my eyes – as long as those who continued to call themselves Catholic upheld Catholic values.
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Exactly. Imagine how the landscape would change if all of the false Catholics were out of politics, or at least no longer were thought of as Catholic.
 
vern_humphrey said:
So what? People who are bigoted against Catholics are now using the pro-abortion stance of so-called Catholic politicians against us.

Yes – Catholics should follow Catholic morality. Those who deviate from it in issues like this bring great scandal on the Church and do far more harm than a host of anti-Catholic bigots.

Bigots will be bigots – and caving into them, abandoning Catholic morality is neither moral nor logical.

Which is a lick on the voters.
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  1. People who are bigoted may not change their vote. But it is not bigotry to recognize someone is following Vatican orders if they change their vote after the pope tells them to do so. If the pope says change, and someone changes, is recognizing that bigotry?
  2. There are many licks against the voters. What does that have to do with vote totals?
 
GreenJeans said:
  1. People who are bigoted may not change their vote. But it is not bigotry to recognize someone is following Vatican orders if they change their vote after the pope tells them to do so. If the pope says change, and someone changes, is recognizing that bigotry?
  2. There are many licks against the voters. What does that have to do with vote totals?
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The problem with your theory is that the politician would never say they are following the Pope. Instead, they would come out with a long, well crafted speech outlining why they are now strongly pro-life, and in that speech they would never say a word about their faith of the Pope.
 
Tom317 said:
It is not important. Catholics (true Catholics) must follow their conscience, which in turn MUST be fully formed in the Catholic faith. No politician needs to say they are listening to the Pope, yet they must follow their Catholic conscience. In the end, it would be great for many Catholics to be in legislative positiobs, yet that is not what is happening today, we have many false Catholics in those spots and it is creating great scandal among the Catholic faithful.

God honors those who honor Him!
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When a group has a political agenda, I suggest it is very important for them to know the potential election dynamics. They may not like the situaion they face, but it is important to know what they face.
 
GreenJeans said:
  1. People who are bigoted may not change their vote. But it is not bigotry to recognize someone is following Vatican orders if they change their vote after the pope tells them to do so. If the pope says change, and someone changes, is recognizing that bigotry?
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It’s not simply because the Pope tells them to do so – it’s the consistent teaching of the Catholic faith since the early church fathers on the matter of abortion.

You keep painting this as if the Holy Father would have a hotline to a politician that is faithful and give him daily instructions. It’s a distorted and bigoted caricature.
 
Tom317 said:
The entire situation simply shows us the grat divide today. Something like 70% of people who claim to be Catholic, are not Catholic, they do not even believe fundamental truths of the faith.

Those people want birth control, abortion, living together, etc…which means this is a matter of slowly taking the faith back from those who have stolen it and desire to build it into something perverse and evil.
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I agree with part of what you say Tom.

I dont think that most desire to build it into something perverse and evil. Since they choose to say that they are Catholic…let’s keep them with that label and help them learn more about the teachings of the faith, which ideally will draw them to understand the teachings.
 
GreenJeans said:
When a group has a political agenda, I suggest it is very important for them to know the potential election dynamics. They may not like the situaion they face, but it is important to know what they face.
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Again, that’s your own view of what you think will sell to the electorate. Ronald Reagan was told that his pro-life stance would keep him from winning, and he won in two landslides.

Sometimes so-called pragmatist are merely self-defeating cowards.
 
Tom317 said:
The entire situation simply shows us the grat divide today. Something like 70% of people who claim to be Catholic, are not Catholic, they do not even believe fundamental truths of the faith.

Those people want birth control, abortion, living together, etc…which means this is a matter of slowly taking the faith back from those who have stolen it and desire to build it into something perverse and evil.
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That’s probably true. So, if 25% of the population are self-identified Catholics, and 70% are fakes, then only 7.5% of the total population are real Catholics. This does not bode well for the guy who changes position after the pope tells him to change.
 
GreenJeans said:
When a group has a political agenda, I suggest it is very important for them to know the potential election dynamics. They may not like the situaion they face, but it is important to know what they face.
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Fine. But, I think you underestimate the cleverness of most politicians. Say Ted Kennedy prayed about this and decided that his soul meant more then abortion to him, and he chooses to follow his conscience by becoming strongly pro-life, becoming an enemy of pro-abort folks. Well TK would never come out and say he is following the Pope, he would never say it has anything to do with the Catholic faith, rather he would simply craft a clever position speech or paper telling everyone why from a secular point of view he is now convinced that abortion is wrong. The dems might dump him, but the repubs would grab him in a second and he would likely shift a lot of people with him.
 
GreenJeans said:
That’s probably true. So, if 25% of the population are self-identified Catholics, and 70% are fakes, then only 7.5% of the total population are real Catholics. This does not bode well for the guy who changes position after the pope tells him to change.
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Yes, you would be right if the guy came out and said he changed because of the Pope, yet I doubt anyone would be that stupid.
 
GreenJeans said:
When a group has a political agenda, I suggest it is very important for them to know the potential election dynamics. They may not like the situaion they face, but it is important to know what they face.
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What they face is a public that want leadership and integrity and can’t get it because our politicians are so obsessed with power and staying in office that they can’t see the forest for the trees.

Our job is to do what’s right… the rest will follow – if it’s** real**.
 
dmelosi said:
I agree with part of what you say Tom.

I dont think that most desire to build it into something perverse and evil. Since they choose to say that they are Catholic…let’s keep them with that label and help them learn more about the teachings of the faith, which ideally will draw them to understand the teachings.
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They already know the faith and choose to reject it.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Gee – maybe Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry, Obey, et all will have to get** real** jobs.

Nor does it appear than having ostensibly Catholic politicians support abortion seem to be an effective way to eliminate that horrible crime.
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  1. I do not agree Kennedy and Pelosi can get real jobs.
  2. I do agree one cannot eliminate abortion by electing people who vote for abortion.
 
GreenJeans said:
That’s probably true. So, if 25% of the population are self-identified Catholics, and 70% are fakes, then only 7.5% of the total population are real Catholics. This does not bode well for the guy who changes position after the pope tells him to change.
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“Bode well,” how?

The point of being Catholic is to achieve salvation. I would say maintaining a pro-abortion position is what does not “bode well” – for anyone.
 
Tom317 said:
They already know the faith and choose to reject it.
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I think that many cradle Catholic are simply Catholic in name only and do not understand the importance of following the church’s teachings.

I am a cradle Catholic and was this way up until about 15 years ago.
 
Tom317 said:
Yes, you would be right if the guy came out and said he changed because of the Pope, yet I doubt anyone would be that stupid.
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Exactly. If they have an epiphany about their stance after hearing the Pope’s comments and praying about it, they should explain that they have prayerfully considered their stance. They’ll probably still lose their next election if their constituents are majority pro-choice, but at least their souls wouldn’t be in jeopardy.

Romney has explained his change of heart. Interestingly, he says that the embryonic stem cell research issue is what led him to change his pro-choice position. If you believe that an embryo is a human life that shouldn’t be destroyed for scientific research, it is impossible to continue holding a “personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice” view.
 
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