Pope: World powers did nothing about Auschwitz

[gilliam]

Pope Francis on Sunday denounced what he called the “great powers” of the world for failing to act when there was intelligence indicating Jews, Christians, homosexuals, and others were being transported to death camps in Europe during World War II.

He also decried the deaths of Christians in concentration camps in Russia under the Stalin dictatorship, which followed the war.

The pope’s harsh assessments came in impromptu remarks during his visit to Turin, northern Italy, when he told young people he understands how they find it hard to trust the world.

Referring to concentration camps that came “a little later” in Russia, Francis wondered aloud: “How many Christians suffered, were killed” there?

Lamenting the cynicism of world players in the 1930s and 1940s, Francis said: “the great powers divided up Europe like a cake.”

cruxnow.com/church/2015/06/21/pope-world-powers-did-nothing-when-jews-were-taken-to-auschwitz/

 

[johnnykins]

True (other than fighting the war - but they certainly didn’t concentrate of stopping the deportations or operations of the death camps) - but how ironic that much of the criticism of Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church is that neither the Pope nor the Church did anything publicly or of particular substance…

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

[Phil502]

I’m not sure bombing the railroad tracks would have stopped it at all.

I’ve heard people say why not parachute guys in and take the camp? Sure, like the Germans were pushovers and easy to take out and then you’re still surrounded.

 

[AKDee]

I don’t disagree, but I’m a little surprised that he didn’t take that a step further and point out that the world is essentially reacting the same way to ISIS and Boko Haram. Very little is being done to stop their atrocities.

 

[ucfengr]

This Pope seems to continually comment on things that, quite frankly, are below is pay grade. He’s immersed in tactics, rather than strategy. The Western Allied Powers (I don’t think Stalin cared one way or another) determined that the best way to stop the Holocaust was to defeat Germany and her allies. You weren’t going to defeat the Axis by bombing rail lines to the various concentration camps, but rather, by destroying Germany’s capacity to wage war, which is what the Western Allies did.

 

[gilliam]

This Pope seems to continually comment on things that, quite frankly, are below is pay grade. He’s immersed in tactics, rather than strategy. The Western Allied Powers (I don’t think Stalin cared one way or another) determined that the best way to stop the Holocaust was to defeat Germany and her allies. You weren’t going to defeat the Axis by bombing rail lines to the various concentration camps, but rather, by destroying Germany’s capacity to wage war, which is what the Western Allies did.

Just my guess but I think he is getting ready to talk to the US congress.

 

[gilliam]

I don’t disagree, but I’m a little surprised that he didn’t take that a step further and point out that the world is essentially reacting the same way to ISIS and Boko Haram. Very little is being done to stop their atrocities.

He has in the past, hasn’t he? My guess is that he will in the future.

 

[ucfengr]

Just my guess but I think he is getting ready to talk to the US congress.

I’m fairly certain that no living members, and very few dead members of Congress had any (name removed by moderator)ut into the tactical or even strategic decisions made during WW2.

 

[ARSpade]

True (other than fighting the war - but they certainly didn’t concentrate of stopping the deportations or operations of the death camps) - but how ironic that much of the criticism of Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church is that neither the Pope nor the Church did anything publicly or of particular substance…

Hindsight is always 20/20

There was pretty much nothing that could be done.

You’re talking about pushing strategic bombers off actual full on military tagets into Poland. Which is far from US bases for much of the war. Until early 1944 US daylight bombers going into Germany were getting absolutely butchered and getting them to Poland and back, if they even had the range, would’ve been suicidal at a time when we were already losing bombers at a horrific almost non-replaceable rate.

Post-1944 (Big Week and follow) the plan was to basically hit military targets related to the invasion of France and get the Luftwaffe into the air against formations to make it convienient for Mustangs to shoot them down.

Targeting camps, if it all possible, would’ve moved valuable resources off of actually winning the war. Not like today where we could knock out a rail yard with a couple T-hawks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Referring to concentration camps that came “a little later” in Russia, Francis wondered aloud: “How many Christians suffered, were killed” there?

not sure where this came from. Death camps were established in Russia long before they were in Germany.

 

[Cider]

So he’s berating people in power now that weren’t even alive during WWII. One of my grandfathers was paralyzed during a bombing a run and my other grandfather thankfully came home physically whole, but lost a brother who was stationed in Hawaii. I’m personally insulted by his remarks. I never knew my paternal grandfather because he died as a result of his war injuries before I was born.

Let me ask him, what did Argentina do? Oh yes, it harbored Nazi’s after the war.

By the way, I also lost family on my husbands side that were killed by the Nazi’s for being Jews. Both my husbands parents lost immediate family members. My FIL fled Lithuania and was lucky enough to get some of his siblings out, but lost his father and sister and her family because his father refused to leave her.

I’m totally incensed at his comments.

 

[Pat_Payne]

There was pretty much nothing that could be done.

You’re talking about pushing strategic bombers off actual full on military tagets into Poland. Which is far from US bases for much of the war. Until early 1944 US daylight bombers going into Germany were getting absolutely butchered and getting them to Poland and back, if they even had the range, would’ve been suicidal at a time when we were already losing bombers at a horrific almost non-replaceable rate.

Post-1944 (Big Week and follow) the plan was to basically hit military targets related to the invasion of France and get the Luftwaffe into the air against formations to make it convienient for Mustangs to shoot them down.

Targeting camps, if it all possible, would’ve moved valuable resources off of actually winning the war. Not like today where we could knock out a rail yard with a couple T-hawks.

Not to mention that the Nazis weren’t about to say “oh, drat, the rail lines to Poland are wiped out, as well as some of our extermination camps… guess we have to stop killing Jews.” The Holocaust was bigger than Auschwitz, or Maidjanek, or Treblinka or Sobibor. Bombing the rail lines was not going to put an end to the Einsatzgruppen who were roaming around murdering Jews and others near the front lines, nor would it have stopped the hellish conditions in the ghettos, nor the arbitrary arrest and summary execution of Jews in occupied territories. Bombing the rail lines would not have freed one prisoner from the existing concentration and extermination camps all around Occupied Europe from the Pyrenees to the Bug.

Only winning the war freed inmates of that sheer hell on earth from their undeserved torment.

 

[friardchips]

Pope Francis on Sunday denounced what he called the “great powers” of the world for failing to act when there was intelligence indicating Jews, Christians, homosexuals, and others were being transported to death camps in Europe during World War II.

He also decried the deaths of Christians in concentration camps in Russia under the Stalin dictatorship, which followed the war.

The pope’s harsh assessments came in impromptu remarks during his visit to Turin, northern Italy, when he told young people he understands how they find it hard to trust the world.

Referring to concentration camps that came “a little later” in Russia, Francis wondered aloud: “How many Christians suffered, were killed” there?

Lamenting the cynicism of world players in the 1930s and 1940s, Francis said: “the great powers divided up Europe like a cake.”

cruxnow.com/church/2015/06/21/pope-world-powers-did-nothing-when-jews-were-taken-to-auschwitz/

I researched the matter myself a few months ago after reading a book about the Levant in war time and came to these same conclusions. He just clarified this for me. Not enough was done for the Jews, to save them. Except right at the end did help arrive.

 

[unstoppable_II]

There was pretty much nothing that could be done.
… Until early 1944 US daylight bombers going into Germany were getting absolutely butchered and getting them to Poland and back, if they even had the range, would’ve been suicidal
…

That’s pretty much it. There was some bombing activity whereby the bombers would continue on to Russia after they dropped their loads over Germany, and they would re-arm and re-fuel and fly back for another run at Germany and continue on to England. Don’t recall how effective it was, though, but they did get two runs for the price of one round-trip of gas.

 

[ARSpade]

That’s pretty much it. There was some bombing activity whereby the bombers would continue on to Russia after they dropped their loads over Germany, and they would re-arm and re-fuel and fly back for another run at Germany and continue on to England. Don’t recall how effective it was, though, but they did get two runs for the price of one round-trip of gas.

They did that a few times, didn’t get much out of it, the Russians were annoying, and IIRC a bunch of B-17s got destroyed in a raid on a Russian airfield. I think we only did it a handful of times.

 

[unstoppable_II]

… Except right at the end did help arrive.

All these complaints assume the war being over as a given. How could the Jews been helped without defeating Germany, which the allies were trying to do?

 

[friardchips]

I’m totally incensed at his comments.

Go figure (think I’ve used that americanism correctly)!

 

[friardchips]

All these complaints assume the war being over as a given. How could the Jews been helped without defeating Germany, which the allies were trying to do?

We must have had info. that Jews were being sent to concentration camps. I would like to know more about the enigma code (not through the watching of big budget films) as I wonder whether we had info. of the Holocaust due to the breaking of Germany’s codes - on top of obvious external signs. We had troops situated in Northern France having been mobilized there. They were not used. After the war, the Russians were given access to Jewish prisoners! In the Levant, the West did not want to grant the Jews an independent state which is what the jewish people wanted. Many jewish refugees were sent over seas, to the West, only to be turned away, and died in the journey - women and children present.

The reason has to come down to anti-semitism. This is my :twocents:

 

[gilliam]

A declassified U.S. intelligence document sheds new light on the longstanding question of how much the West knew about Hitler’s plans for the Holocaust and when they knew it.

The translated copy of a November 1941 dispatch filed by a Chilean diplomat serving in Prague, tells of German plans to eradicate the Jews, the National Archives and Records
Administration said Monday.

“It has been decided to eradicate all the Jews and send some to Poland and others to the town of Terezin, whilst looking for a more remote place,” Chilean consul Gonzalo Montt Rivas wrote to his government.

By late March 20, 1942, “a surreptitiously obtained” copy of the document appeared in the files of the United States Coordinator of Information, a predecessor to the Office of Strategic Services and CIA, archives officials.

The report was delivered to David Bruce, head of the Secret Intelligence Branch of the Coordinator of Information, and forwarded to an administrative assistant to William J. Donovan, who served as Coordinator of Information. There is no indication on the document whether other Americans may have seen it.

cbsnews.com/news/us-knew-about-holocaust-sooner/

 

[unstoppable_II]

We must have had info. that Jews were being sent to concentration camps. …

So? Having info is not a solution. How could we have helped the Jews [or anyone] without getting to them first? How could we get to them without beating the Germans in battle, which is what we were trying to do? It’s not like we could call up Der Fuehrer and ask for a cease-fire while we tended to concentration camp prisoners. Get real.

I would like to know more about the enigma code (not through the watching of big budget films) as I wonder whether we had info. of the Holocaust due to the breaking of Germany’s codes - on top of obvious external signs. …

What “obvious external signs” are you referring to?

A fairly good book on code-breaking from WW-I through WW-II is The Battle of Wits by Stephen Budiansky. It’s probably out of print, but might be available on line with one of the many used book sellers.