Pope's Latinist pronounces death of a language

[tee_eff_em]

I judge that Fr Foster is not as pessimistic as the headline, but only by a fraction.

Pope’s Latinist pronounces death of a language

By Malcolm Moore in Rome, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 11:44pm GMT 27/01/2007

For years it was derided by unwilling schoolboys for being “as dead as dead could be”. Now, despite the Vatican’s best efforts, the Pope’s top adviser on Latin has reluctantly joined them by saying the language of St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas is almost extinct.

“It is dying in the Church. I’m not optimistic about Latin. The young priests and bishops are not studying it,” said Fr Reginald Foster, 68, a Carmelite friar who was appointed the Papal Latinist 38 years ago by Pope Paul VI.

He said priests were no longer compelled to study Latin at seminaries, and now found it impossible to read vital theological tracts.

Full Story

tee

 

[francesco920]

I’m studying Latin and I love it…it’s so sad to read that it’s dying, but I guess there’s no denying the facts…

I’m a little surprised, though. Don’t we keep on hearing that the new generation of JPII priests are more orthodox than their predecessors? Why aren’t they taking Latin then!?

Although I am not sure about what he says about the TLM…when he says “it is a useless mass and the whole mentality is stupid” he makes himself sound a little crazy. I don’t understand how the Tridentine Mass that was celebrated for hundreds of years can be described as “useless.”

 

[lucybeebee]

I’m confused. Is this motu propio freeing the TLM real, a rumor, or retracted? This is the first article I’ve read that says that it won’t be forthcoming.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’m confused. Is this motu propio freeing the TLM real, a rumor, or retracted? This is the first article I’ve read that says that it won’t be forthcoming.

Unless and until something is published, it is a rumor. Even this “retraction” is only a second-hand rumor. Only one of these rumors is true. Which one?

Who knows?

tee

 

[frommi]

I’m confused. Is this motu propio freeing the TLM real, a rumor, or retracted? This is the first article I’ve read that says that it won’t be forthcoming.

Most of the current reporting on the issue implies that the Pope met more resistance from the college of bishops than he thought he would.

 

[francesco920]

Most of the current reporting on the issue implies that the Pope met more resistance from the college of bishops than he thought he would.

I agree, but I think the Pope will get his way eventually, even if there is widespread opposition to his policies. Remember, this is the same guy that brought us that wonderful document called *Dominus Iesus *and spoke out against “banal” liturgical music!

In my opinion, he is taking the time to build support for his motu proprio. I believe that the motu proprio (and his Apostolic Exhortation on the Eucharist) will come out sometime this year. I could be wrong.

I hope and pray that he won’t keep us waiting too long though!

Also I found something interesting on The New Liturgical Movement website…

Two views from Rome on the Motu Proprio; one more rational and one more emotional

I was not going to pass commentary on this, because, to be frank, it doesn’t merit being taken seriously in my opinion. However, it seems as though a comment may be worthwhile after all given how public this statement is, and given, no doubt, how it will quickly become known through internet circles and the source of either despair, concern, or anger.

The story originally came through The Telegraph in the U.K. and concerns sentiments coming from Fr. Reginald Foster, often referred to as “the Pope’s Latinist”. In this piece, Fr. Foster laments what he sees as the imminent death of Latin. Quite ironically as part of this piece, he then moves on the disparage the classical Latin liturgy and speaks contrary to the Motu Proprio to liberalize the usage of the same:

"[Fr. Foster] said reports that Pope Benedict will reintroduce the Tridentine Mass, which dates from 1570 and is largely conducted in Latin, were wrong – not least because of the Pope’s desire to avoid more controversies. A speech last year offended Muslims and more recently he gave initial support to a Polish archbishop who was eventually forced to resign, after admitting that he had collaborated with the communist-era secret police.

“He is not going to do it,” Fr Foster said. “He had trouble with Regensberg, and then trouble in Warsaw, and if he does this, all hell will break loose.” In any case, he added: “It is a useless mass and the whole mentality is stupid. The idea of it is that things were better in the old days. It makes the Vatican look medieval.”

Clearly this statement on the part of Fr. Foster can only be dismissed as a partisan and ideological, even emotional, assessment. In fact, the comment rings of desperation – seen in the fact of intemperately referring to an ancient liturgy of the Church as a “useless Mass” whose “whole mentality is stupid”.

Well, there is indeed a problematic mentality here, but it is not within the classical liturgy of the Roman church, but rather in one who would make such intemperate, impious statements about a venerable rite of the Church. This is certainly one of the clearest manifestations of a hermeneutic of rupture we have yet seen.

It would seem that Fr. Foster in his evident state of high emotion about the matter, is confusing his own feelings with the objective facts of the situation.

In this writer’s estimation, the comment cannot be taken seriously as far as the motu proprio is concerned.

Illuminating in this regard is the rather different take (from one also no great fan of the classical liturgy) from this past week, by Father Eberhard von Gemmingen, S.J. on Vatican Radio (courtesy of someone on CTNGreg):

“In all probability Pope Benedict will give the permission to celebrate again the traditional or Tridentine Rite. It would however be completely wrong if Catholics started to quarrel over this, some of them full of joy about this reversal, the others full of anger. It is to be noted that the Pope will not on any account reintroduce the old liturgy or even make it compulsory. He is only of the opinion that the prohibition of the classical Rite after the Council is in contradiction to Church tradition, because according to his conviction, Rites can be further developed but cannot be abrogated.”

This latter position is more in accord with the objective facts of the situation as we’ve come to know them. The 1962 Missal won’t be reintroduced in place of the modern Roman rite, but it will be substantially liberalized as an extraordinary rite of the Church which has, by virtue of its antiquity and long-standing use a “right of citizenship within the Church” (as Cardinal Hoyos once put it).

 

[JimG]

It will be bad for historical studies if no one is able to read Cicero, Ovid and Lucretius in the original language.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

Latin will not die in the Catholic Church if enough Catholics learn it.

I urge Catholic parents to visit principals of their local Catholic high schools to ask that Latin be introduced in those schools in the 2007-2008 school year.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[LittleRose]

The technical definition for a dead language is that there be no more native speakers of said language in existence. Native speakers of a language are people who are raised speaking the language from infancy. (So, for instance, I grew up speaking English, and that is my native language.)

Latin has, actually been a dead language for centuries.

The fact that it is still used by people who have learned it in academic settings does not change that.

It is sad, however, that so few people have knowledge of it anymore. I think Latin should still be taught in school as a standard part of the curriculum. It’s not just handy for us Catholics. It would help people do a lot better on the verbal half of the SAT.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I
Although I am not sure about what he says about the TLM…when he says “it is a useless mass and the whole mentality is stupid” he makes himself sound a little crazy. I don’t understand how the Tridentine Mass that was celebrated for hundreds of years can be described as “useless.”

Talk like this says that article and his claims should not be trusted. Where do these claims come from that the old stuff is stupid and useless?

It pretty illogical for someone to be sad that Latin isnt taught anymore and at the same time claim the “old days” are stupid and useless. Its a conflict of interests.

I personally dont trust this article.

 

[Corki]

Latin will not die in the Catholic Church if enough Catholics learn it.

I urge Catholic parents to visit principals of their local Catholic high schools to ask that Latin be introduced in those schools in the 2007-2008 school year.

Keep and spread the Faith.

This is a big point for us. My son is almost to HS and he has two good schools to choose from. The more “established” school has a good Latin program in place. The new school has only been opened a few years and started with French and Spanish as their foreign language offerings. I asked about Latin when we toured the school and was told they would be adding it as soon as they could find a teacher.

We have a number of elementary schools in the area that also offer Latin. One is Catholic but the others are evangelical classical schools (and two secular Classical ones that I know of).

So there is hope.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I’m impressed by the fact that Father Foster works down the hall from the Pope’s office. Conceivably, they may have chatted with each other at the water cooler–if the Vatican has water coolers. But note that Father Foster may be an eccentric. According to the following report, he says Mass in the nude:

adoremus.org/DEW998.html

Perhaps we should take what Father Foster says cum grano salis, as they say in Latin: “with a grain of salt.”

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[francesco920]

I’m impressed by the fact that Father Foster works down the hall from the Pope’s office. Conceivably, they may have chatted with each other at the water cooler–if the Vatican has water coolers. But note that Father Foster may be an eccentric. According to the following report, he says Mass in the nude:

adoremus.org/DEW998.html

Perhaps we should take what Father Foster says cum grano salis, as they say in Latin: “with a grain of salt.”

Keep and spread the Faith.

I had a feeling he was at least partially insane. Perhaps he’s been reading a little too much of Classical Latin…if you catch my drift.

Those pagans wrote down some weird stuff…

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Father Foster confided that he often celebrates Mass in the nude. “I’m a naturalist, I’m a nudist. I like to say Mass in the nude, too. If God doesn’t like that sorry”.

He also complained that he only met the pope once, for ten minutes, in 1982.

hmmmm, i wonder why??

that’s one mass i don’t want to go to, especially if it was celebrated ad orientem–what a strange guy.

he’s a nudist and latinist–king of a oxymoron. maybe this explains why he hates the tridentine mass.

 

[LilyM]

I’m impressed by the fact that Father Foster works down the hall from the Pope’s office. Conceivably, they may have chatted with each other at the water cooler–if the Vatican has water coolers.

Holy Water coolers? Although being Rome they’re more likely to meet up over coffee at the local cafe than be caught dead anywhere so uncouth as in the office

 

[Apherius]

I am going to try to learn it this year. We need to keep the language alive for the Church and the world.

 

[chicago]

Fr. Reggie an eccentric? NOOOOOOOOO!

Ever listen to the radio show, The Latin Lover? It’s wild! Hilarious and entertaining as can be with the straight woman host trying to reign him in and he just being blunt.

 

[LilyM]

hmmmm, i wonder why??

that’s one mass i don’t want to go to, especially if it was celebrated ad orientem–what a strange guy.

he’s a nudist and latinist–king of a oxymoron. maybe this explains why he hates the tridentine mass.

Surely you’d rather ad orientem than versus populum? (Although I suppose the important parts would be hidden by the altar in that event)

 

[Beno]

That makes me wonder. If Latin is a dying language, should I bother teaching latin chant to future choirs under my direction or shall I teach chant in the English language?

 

[Hastrman]

Actually, Latin died the moment it was nobody’s first language.
Hebrew had been dead for almost 2000 years when the Israelis revived it. Sanskrit’s been dead for longer than that.

All three languages live on only as religious tongues. So, for that matter, do Old Japanese and Byzantine Greek.

And there have been declines in the learning of Latin before. It’ll turn around. Remember, most of the priests they’re talking about are the the Baby-Boomers, or their spawn, the Gen Xers. I’d say in two or maybe three generations there’ll be more priests learning latin again.