Pope's meeting with Kim Davis not an endorsement, Vatican says

[Bubba_Switzler]

Is Kim Davis even making any difference? There doesn’t seem to be mass resistance in any state to the Supreme Court decision. Same-sex couples can now get married in every state in the Union and will probably continue to have this right for the foreseeable future even if there are a few small pockets of resistance in some out of the way places.

There have been many other officials doing likewise. She is not alone though there ought to be many more wiling act similarly. The more the better. Give it time. Opinion polls suggest that “ssm” has lost support since the unjust sc decision.

 

[Thomas_White]

Note that even in the military, the institution where hierarchical order is most revered, there is no such thing as “follow orders without thinking”.

I guess you never served in the military. This is a pretty basic lesson if a soldier cares to remain alive.

Whatever lattitude is afforded a soldier to disobey an unjust order is an order of magnitude greater in the case of civilian elected officials.

The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) provides that a soldier may disobey an unlawful order. If a soldier were given an order to shoot an unarmed civilian without cause who presents no threat, it would be an unlawful order. In that instance, a soldier must disobey the unlawful order or himself become subject to the legal consequences. The superior who gave the unlawful order would also be subject to court martial. This is the very situation of both Kim Davis and her subordinates. There is no latitude.

 

[sallybutler]

Indeed, she availed herself of her options.

To suggest that she must follow orders is an insult to America.

Unlike in Nazi Germany, she could quit without being killed.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Unlike in Nazi Germany, she could quit without being killed.

Unlike? No, this is not relevant even if true.

The criminals at Nuremburg were not held accountable for following unjust orders simply because they couldn’t quit.

One imagines the prosecutors asking “well, could you quit? No? Well, then, hang him.”

Ridiculous.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I guess you never served in the military. This is a pretty basic lesson if a soldier cares to remain alive.

In some circumstances, yes. Not, though, usually in the ones where a soldier is making decisions about unjust orders. Orders to kill prisoners, for example, typically come after the position has been secure and the fighting stopped.

Now it is true that soldiers are more accustomed to following orders. But that only exaggerates the distinction between soldiers and civilians. It certainly does not justify treating civilian office holders like soldiers.

The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) provides that a soldier may disobey an unlawful order. If a soldier were given an order to shoot an unarmed civilian without cause who presents no threat, it would be an unlawful order. In that instance, a soldier must disobey the unlawful order or himself become subject to the legal consequences. The superior who gave the unlawful order would also be subject to court martial. This is the very situation of both Kim Davis and her subordinates. There is no latitude.

Let’s hope that the SC judges are held to account some day for their unjust decision.

But, no, Kim Davis’ subordinates do, in fact, have the similar latitude. Every human being does.

 

[Thorolfr]

Opinion polls suggest that “ssm” has lost support since the unjust sc decision.

Here’s are the results of a poll in Texas released September 30, 2015:

When it comes to gay marriage, following the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex unions, 49 percent of Texans said they favor gay marriage, up from 33 percent in 2011.

The poll, Shaw said, shows that Texas is not a monolith of knee-jerk conservatism.

“The state has a very diverse population,” he said.

trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2015/09/poll-texans-coming-around-to-pot-gay-marriage-and-still-deeply-in-love-with-football.html/

If even Texas is now at 49% approval, it looks to me like the battle against SSM has been lost.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Here’s are the results of a poll in Texas released September 30, 2015:

If even Texas is now at 49% approval, it looks to me like the battle against SSM has been lost.

“According to a recent AP-GFK poll, support for gay marriage among U.S. citizens has dropped six percentage points since their last poll in April, with more Americans disapproving of the Supreme Court ruling making gay marriage the law of the land than those approving it.”

breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/19/poll-support-for-gay-marriage-has-fallen-after-obergefell/

People assumed that abortion too was a done deal after Roe v. Wade but the tide is turning. It will take time for people to realize the injustice of what the SC has done because the effects are more subtle and insidious.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

More than sixty prominent legal scholars are out with a statement saying the Supreme Court’s Obergefell decision “cannot be taken to have settled the law of the land.” Therefore the scholars are calling upon federal and state office holders, along with regular citizens, to act as if the decision is invalid.

The scholars write that the bare-majority decision on gay marriage lacks “anything remotely resembling a warrant in the text, logic, structure, or original understanding of the Constitution.” The ruling “must be judged anti-constitutional and illegitimate,” they say.

breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/08/legal-scholars-urge-disobedience-to-gay-marriage-ruling/

 

[Thomas_White]

In some circumstances, yes. Not, though, usually in the ones where a soldier is making decisions about unjust orders. Orders to kill prisoners, for example, typically come after the position has been secure and the fighting stopped.

Not always, but in the Kim Davis situation there was surely ample time for her to make a decision.

Now it is true that soldiers are more accustomed to following orders. But that only exaggerates the distinction between soldiers and civilians. It certainly does not justify treating civilian office holders like soldiers.

Maybe but not always, though not following orders appears to be the difficulty for Kim Davis.

Let’s hope that the SC judges are held to account some day for their unjust decision.

What I’ve long believed is that in the end nobody gets away with anything. I don’t think we need to be concerned at all about this aspect of it.

But, no, Kim Davis’ subordinates do, in fact, have the similar latitude. Every human being does.

Yes, of course they could contientiously object to issuing SSM licenses. What they cannot do is avoid the consequences. These are two separate things.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Here’s are the results of a poll in Texas released September 30, 2015:

trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2015/09/poll-texans-coming-around-to-pot-gay-marriage-and-still-deeply-in-love-with-football.html/

If even Texas is now at 49% approval, it looks to me like the battle against SSM has been lost.

This came out before the Supreme Court ruling:

Study: Opposition to same-sex marriage may be understated in public opinion polls

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/30/opposition-to-same-sex-marriage-may-be-understated-in-public-opinion-polls/

Is support for gay marriage over-sold?

washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/03/25/is-support-for-gay-marriage-over-sold

 

[Peter_Plato]

If even Texas is now at 49% approval, it looks to me like the battle against SSM has been lost.

Doubtful. I suspect abortion, SSM and euthanasia (in due time) will end up being reconsidered. Society will eventually shake its collective skull, wondering, “Where was my head at?” We all do crazy, brain-dead things in our lives. Impulses lead us into blind alleys where reason has to take over to avert disaster. Unfortunately, impulses often take the lead regarding our actions but thoughtful deliberation requires time. Society as a whole is no different and THIS particular society has a penchant for permitting pelvic organs to control the brain in matters of sex and what makes life worth living.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Is Kim Davis even making any difference? There doesn’t seem to be mass resistance in any state to the Supreme Court decision. Same-sex couples can now get married in every state in the Union and will probably continue to have this right for the foreseeable future even if there are a few small pockets of resistance in some out of the way places.

No, Kim Davis isn’t making any difference at all. She’s no dignified Rosa Parks, who did make a difference. Davis was news for a few days and that’s it. That’s why this whole thing is so silly.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Unlike in Nazi Germany, she could quit without being killed.

Exactly. That’s what makes her actions so ridiculous. She’s not protesting SSM at all; she’s lying to herself.

 

[PRmerger]

Exactly. That’s what makes her actions so ridiculous. She’s not protesting SSM at all; she’s lying to herself.

What is she protesting then?

Surely someone who spends time in jail and refuses to comply is protesting* something.*

What is it?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Doubtful. I suspect abortion, SSM and euthanasia (in due time) will end up being reconsidered. Society will eventually shake its collective skull, wondering, “Where was my head at?” We all do crazy, brain-dead things in our lives. Impulses lead us into blind alleys where reason has to take over to avert disaster. Unfortunately, impulses often take the lead regarding our actions but thoughtful deliberation requires time. Society as a whole is no different and THIS particular society has a penchant for permitting pelvic organs to control the brain in matters of sex and what makes life worth living.

Things do swing back-and-forth, but I, personally, think it will be a long time before people come to their senses and realize SSM, euthanasia, abortion, etc. are not good for society. I think it will be decades before society regains its “right mind.”

 

[Darryl1958]

Unlike in Nazi Germany, she could quit without being killed.

America IS less authoritarian than Nazi Germany. I imagine there are a lot of other countries that America is less authoritarian than too.
Talk about setting the bar as low as it can go though.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, Kim Davis isn’t making any difference at all. She’s no dignified Rosa Parks, who did make a difference. Davis was news for a few days and that’s it. That’s why this whole thing is so silly.

It’s way to early to be judging who is making a difference and what are the best tactics for restoring respect for marriage. The fact that everyone is still talking about her is proof, alone, that her influence is not ended. That Pope Francis would take the time to meet with her and encourage her was refreshing. We don’t know yet who else she may inspire and whether or not she will become the Rosa Parks of traditional marriage.

What I’m beginning to wonder is what explains your vendetta against this woman?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Doubtful. I suspect abortion, SSM and euthanasia (in due time) will end up being reconsidered. Society will eventually shake its collective skull, wondering, “Where was my head at?” We all do crazy, brain-dead things in our lives. Impulses lead us into blind alleys where reason has to take over to avert disaster. Unfortunately, impulses often take the lead regarding our actions but thoughtful deliberation requires time. Society as a whole is no different and THIS particular society has a penchant for permitting pelvic organs to control the brain in matters of sex and what makes life worth living.

My impression is that homosexuality is the new black. It’s cool at the moment. And anything related, e.g. “SSM”, is by association cool. Being for traditional marriage is especially uncool.

The same thing could have been said about abortion a decade ago. That is not the case today. Killing babies is no longer cool. It may not be widely regarded as abhorant but it’s lost its cool factor.

Add to this the fact that supporters of traditional marriage were caught completely off guard and have yet to articulate convincing arguments against “SSM”. I think many supporters of traditional marriage were literally gobsmacked at the SC decision and only now are coming to squarely face the reality of it.

Be patient.

 

[Thomas_White]

My impression is that homosexuality is the new black. It’s cool at the moment. And anything related, e.g. “SSM”, is by association cool. Being for traditional marriage is especially uncool.

I agree and cannot see how homosexuality could possibly be compatible with God’s natural plan for procreation. However, I also do not see how a Kim Davis refusal to perform the duties of her elected office has a thing to do with it. It looks like politics.

In Genesis (not understood literally), God’s plan for Adam and Eve, before the Fall and Original Sin, was for them to naturally procreate and begin the process of populating the earth. Homosexuality was not a possibility for Adam and Eve and could only occur later, after the Fall. Is homosexuality, in a perhaps overpopulated world, really the new black? Should this in time become dominant, what of procreation? Would it not entail the end of mankind? What in the grand scheme of things is the drift here? It could not portend any good, I think.

 

[mikekle]

It’s way to early to be judging who is making a difference and what are the best tactics for restoring respect for marriage. The fact that everyone is still talking about her is proof, alone, that her influence is not ended. That Pope Francis would take the time to meet with her and encourage her was refreshing. We don’t know yet who else she may inspire and whether or not she will become the Rosa Parks of traditional marriage.

What I’m beginning to wonder is what explains your vendetta against this woman?

Exactly, Rosa Parks blatantly disobeyed a law in her area, she REFUSED to give in and just get up and sit somewhere else, people hated her for it, she could have moved seats, she would have avoided the consequences, but SHE DIDNT, she REFUSED…and now she is celebrated.

I think what Kim Davis did is GREAT, I hope she inspires many more in whatever job they have, to take similar stands if faced with it.