Pope's response to German bishops 'incomprehensible'

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Dovekin said:
Why don’t they become Catholics? That is the question. Why aren’t Lutherans just recognized as Catholics? There are still issues, especially about ordination. But on the Eucharist their faith is the same as Catholics, though it may be articulated differently. It does not appear to be time to say there are no differences, but the German bishops are saying it is time to end the emergency situation that exists in interchurch marriages.
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Most of the issues from the Reformation have been settled, except for the Sacraments and the view of laity/ordination. A first among equals pope would likely be fine too.
But I bet the RCC would outright reject 500 years of accumulated Lutheran dogma, just as we consider some of the Catholic additions in terms that would get me flagged off CAF.
But with goodwill on both sides, the denominations aren’t exactly continents aparts, if we disregard our mutual Nope-NotNohowNoways militants.
 
JD143785 said:
1.) Not true. If Bishops have been doing this it was against the Catechism and against the wishes of JP2, Benedictus, and even Francis. The Catechism writes they can only receive in case of ‘grave emergency’ like impending death. What you write is extremely misleading.
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What evidence do you have? Norms for Interchurch Relations
JD143785 said:
2.) Christ is not present in the Eucharist if the belief…
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If you do not believe in his real presence, you will have to say more than “is not.” I am relying on statements agreed to by the Luheran World Federation and the Vatican. Do you think you understand the pronouncements of Popes and Trent better than the catholic bishops and theologians involved?
JD143785 said:
3.) They aren’t recognized as Catholics because
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I am completely with you on this. I don’t think “Why don’t they become Catholic if they believe in the Eucharist?” is an adequate, or even intelligent response.
JD143785 said:
4.) Agreed.
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The point is that bishops can work together. Failing to encourage that would be be worse than failing to defend dogma.

I listed these points so that people could have a chance to comprehend the thinking going on. Often the incomprehensibility comes from them not knowing, or denying, what the Church has been saying for many years, so some of these are just updates on agreements in the Church.
 
If the Bishop of Berlin thinks he can violate clear Church teaching, that’s not the problem of the Bishop of Cologne. It’s not the Bishop of Cologne’s job to “work with” with the Bishop of Berlin. It’s the job of all the bishops to defend Tradition, to defend what they received/what was handed down to them.
 
Perhpas it would have been better for the Dutch Cardinal Willem Jacobus Eijk, the Archbishop of Utrecht to leave the matter to the German bishops and the Pope .

If Cardinal Willem Jacobus Eijk wanted to intervene in the matter it ought not to have been done by writing an article in a newspaper but by personal and confidential correspondence with German bishops and with the Pope .
 
Then again, “dialogue” in the progressive vocabulary really means, “Talk in circles until you accept my innovation.”
 
This matter effects the universal Church. We’re not Protestants. This is not merely a German question.
 
MikeInVA said:
I kind of think he’s exactly who is supposed to settle the issue, for the whole Church.
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The question, of course, is how he settles it.

The way he chose to address it is to say, “ok… if you think you can get all your bishops to agree on this point, then come back to me.” Pretty classic way of resolving an issue without being forced to rub someone’s nose in it…
 
Rob2 said:
Perhpas it would have been better for the Dutch Cardinal Willem Jacobus Eijk, the Archbishop of Utrecht to leave the matter to the German bishops and the Pope .
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On the other hand, it’s better for a peer – a cardinal archbishop – to tell his peers, “you guys are crazy”, than for them to have to hear it from the pope himself… 😉
 
The Sacrament of the Eucharist is kind of more important than the Sacrament of Matrimony.
 
Lutherans have two Gospel sacraments. The others are ordinances, or lower class sacraments.
 
Gorgias said:
if you think you can get all your bishops to agree on this point, then come back to me.
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The problem is that, using your concept of consensus, all the bishops in the entire Church should be required to agree, because the outcome affects all of them. This isn’t a German-only question like, “should the German Catholic bishops accept the pew tax from the government or just ask for donations from parishoners?”
 
MikeInVA said:
The problem is that, using your concept of consensus, all the bishops in the entire Church should be required to agree, because the outcome affects all of them.
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Except that, when they can’t even get consensus within their conference, it will eventually occur to them what the prospects are of getting this approved… 😉
 
Gorgias said:
Except that, when they can’t even get consensus within their conference, it will eventually occur to them what the prospects are of getting this approved…
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And that’s why they asked the Pope to answer it.
 
Gorgias said:
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Rob2:
Perhpas it would have been better for the Dutch Cardinal Willem Jacobus Eijk, the Archbishop of Utrecht to leave the matter to the German bishops and the Pope .
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On the other hand, it’s better for a peer – a cardinal archbishop – to tell his peers, “you guys are crazy”, than for them to have to hear it from the pope himself… 😉
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Yes , I did also say in my post “If Cardinal Willem Jacobus Eijk wanted to intervene in the matter it ought not to have been done by writing an article in a newspaper but by personal and confidential correspondence with German bishops and with the Pope .”
 
As I understand it, the Directory applies to special events, while the German question was broader?
 
Had a friend told me he thought the German Bishops were undercover Lutherans raising havoc in support of the Reformation.

Ridiculous , of course…but an amusing conspiracy theory.
 
I also don’t understand what the Cardinal is upset about. I didn’t see anything wrong with the German bishop’s guidelines even before I read your post about how it’s been happening for years anyway.

I’ve heard of instances where a priest accepts someone into the Church without RCIA. These guidelines just sound like that’s what’s happening, except without the formality of the person’s actually becoming Catholic…so, on some level I don’t understand that part of it, but I trust the bishops have their reasons for doing things that way.
 
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