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twf
Guest
For much of Church history, local synods did indeed have real, binding authority without any need to consult Rome. Yet the Church endured.
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JimG
Guest
Having a non-Catholic spouse is not an “emergency” like war or danger of death. There is no emergency. There is already a pastoral solution if a non-catholic spouse has a Catholic belief in the Eucharist and wishes to receive. Fr. Longenecker outlines it here:
“The bishops say this is a “pastoral response” but every Catholic priest already has a perfectly good pastoral response at hand. We are empowered to receive into full communion any of our separated brethren whenever they ask at our own discretion. If I have a parishioner who knows the Catholic faith, attends Mass with his Catholic spouse, loves the church and is a Catholic in all but fact and he says, “Father, I’d like to be received into the Church” I can, at my own discretion hear his profession of faith and hear his confession and admit him into the church.
Bam. Just like that.
That’s just as pastoral as can be.
So why the big fuss by the German bishops? Why all the wringing of hands and high level Vatican meetings?
This is something my eighth grade Catholic school students would be able to explain.”
Source
“The bishops say this is a “pastoral response” but every Catholic priest already has a perfectly good pastoral response at hand. We are empowered to receive into full communion any of our separated brethren whenever they ask at our own discretion. If I have a parishioner who knows the Catholic faith, attends Mass with his Catholic spouse, loves the church and is a Catholic in all but fact and he says, “Father, I’d like to be received into the Church” I can, at my own discretion hear his profession of faith and hear his confession and admit him into the church.
Bam. Just like that.
That’s just as pastoral as can be.
So why the big fuss by the German bishops? Why all the wringing of hands and high level Vatican meetings?
This is something my eighth grade Catholic school students would be able to explain.”
Source
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MikeInVA
Guest
That’s pretty much the whole issue right there. Either you’re Catholic, in a state of grace, or you don’t go to Communion (with an exemption for special circumstances).
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SnowRose
Guest
In charity, if these spouses wanted to convert to each other’s church (Catholic to Lutheran or vice versa) don’t you think they already would have? Bam or no bam.
You might end up with Catholic spouses defecting, as they would likely be welcome at the spouse’s church, that too is a pastoral concern.
You might end up with Catholic spouses defecting, as they would likely be welcome at the spouse’s church, that too is a pastoral concern.
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JimG
Guest
Exactly so. If a spouse wanted to convert to Catholicism, presumably he or she would have done so. Receiving the Catholic Eucharist means that one accepts all of Catholic doctrine.
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acanonlawyer
Guest
I did not see this in the article but I would suspect that the episcopal conference in Germany, like so many other areas, already has “guidelines” (or whatever they call them) which are an implementation of c. 844. I would also suspect that Cardinal Eijk is aware of the guidelines. I would also suspect that these new proposals represent a departure from the already-implemented guidelines (if they didn’t change anything, then there would be no reason for the new proposals).
Dan
Dan
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Yes, under special circumstances. The German Bishops are seeking approval for a set of certain circumstances.
The Cardinal objects on certain legal grounds, but then provides a “slippery slope” argument. Why is the slippery slope argument necessary if his other arguments are standing on solid ground. He makes his worries known here:
The Cardinal objects on certain legal grounds, but then provides a “slippery slope” argument. Why is the slippery slope argument necessary if his other arguments are standing on solid ground. He makes his worries known here:
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Dovekin
Guest
Canon Law, and the Directory for Ecumenism, say it is up to the bishops to establish norms. They say particular circumstances may cause a “grave and pressing need” for an interchurch couple. If you want to disagree with them, you may. I just don’t understand why you would want to.
Most of the norms in he article from the Deacon were for scattered instances, not general permission. Complications arose for the South African bishops when they tried more general permission. But I am pretty sure it was a limited permission that the German bishops sought with their handout as well.
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SnowRose
Guest
No.
I’m Lutheran and I consider the Catholic Eucharist perfectly valid and licit, even though I’m not permitted to participate or would ever ask to.
But I firmly disagree on a number of teachings not directly connected to the Eucharist itself, and so wouldn’t even consider converting.
You see it as a theological package deal, I don’t.
I’m Lutheran and I consider the Catholic Eucharist perfectly valid and licit, even though I’m not permitted to participate or would ever ask to.
But I firmly disagree on a number of teachings not directly connected to the Eucharist itself, and so wouldn’t even consider converting.
You see it as a theological package deal, I don’t.
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Edward_H
Guest
but perhaps it was because of the eventual centralizing that it did endure.
People forget why things were done…a fix to a problem of splintering.
People forget why things were done…a fix to a problem of splintering.
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twf
Guest
The Eastern Catholics, like their Orthodox counterparts, continue to use the ancient Synodal method of local governance and do fine.
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Mtdobbs
Guest
in the days of the early apostles when Jesus sent them out 2 by 2 to evangelize, they probably ran into issues where they weren’t always able to ask Peter for clarification. They trusted in their vocation and had faith that the Holy Spirit would guide them. I see merit in trying to get the Bishops to agree as a conference. They need to discuss and work things out through communication. This doesn’t mean that the solution will be to allow intercommunion. It just means Francis is showing that he has faith in his Bishops to make the right call, as Jesus had faith in the 12.
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twf
Guest
Actually the Jesuits are a very diverse order. There are Jesuits who are also simultaneously Byzantine monastics. I’ve met one.
That being said, I understand what you’re getting at
.
That being said, I understand what you’re getting at
.
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tseleehw
Guest
I think what is being forgotten also is that there is more that is necessary than just a “grave and pressing need” or “danger of death” for non-Catholics to receive communion. Not only is that a condition, but there are other criteria must be met by a non-Catholic. The person can only receive when they:
And what about confession? I would hope that they would at least expect protestant individuals wishing to receive to go to Catholic confession? Or is that only a requirement for Catholics? Maybe I don’t have to go to confession anymore? I’m being facetious here but there are so many obvious problems with the German proposals that it is sad that they are even being considered.
- cannot approach a minister of his or her own community
- asks on his or her own for it,
- manifests Catholic faith in the sacraments
- are properly disposed
And what about confession? I would hope that they would at least expect protestant individuals wishing to receive to go to Catholic confession? Or is that only a requirement for Catholics? Maybe I don’t have to go to confession anymore? I’m being facetious here but there are so many obvious problems with the German proposals that it is sad that they are even being considered.
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pnewton
Guest
…and firing shots at each other. I guess I understand Pope Francis from that perspective.
Since the matter is settled, why is direction needed?
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JimG
Guest
One should not receive communion unless one is IN communion. I could not receive Lutheran communion because I am not in communion with the Lutheran faith. Neither should a Lutheran receive Catholic communion if he is not in communion with the Catholic Church.
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Dovekin
Guest
Lumen Gentium, Vatican II’s constitution on the Church, describes:
“15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.”
“15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.”
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Then maybe the Church needs as a whole needs to do some more self-reflection.
It is perfectly within the Pope’s rights to decide whether he wants to decide once-for-all or not. I think the safer way is patience and collegiality. Keep the flock together. The Catholic approach has always been: Prefer unity over schism. Schism is worse than heresy.
It is perfectly within the Pope’s rights to decide whether he wants to decide once-for-all or not. I think the safer way is patience and collegiality. Keep the flock together. The Catholic approach has always been: Prefer unity over schism. Schism is worse than heresy.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
“In communion” is a nebulous phrase. To use it in such a black and white fashion is unfitting.
This following ruling goes back 20 years , and further if my memory is correct .
" The Directory strongly recommends that each diocesan bishop should establish
norms for judging situations of grave and pressing spiritual need when Christians not in
full communion with the Catholic Church may be admitted to Holy Communion and to the
sacraments of Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick. These norms should take into
account any which may have been established already by the Bishops’ Conference. In
the absence of norms established either by the diocesan bishop or by the Bishops’
Conference, Catholic priests are to follow those of the Directory. In order to guide
Catholic pastors in our countries, our Bishops’ Conferences now establish norms on this
important matter. There are two sets of norms: one concerning Christians from Eastern
Churches, the other concerning Christians from Churches and ecclesial communities of
the West. Catholic priests are to discern each individual case only in accord with the
norms established by their diocesan bishop, or, in the absence of such diocesan norms,
those which the Bishops’ Conferences of England and Wales, Ireland, and Scotland
promulgate in this document, each for its own territory. "
From the 1998 document “One Bread One Body” by the Bishops of England , Scotland , Wales and Ireland .
http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/articles/OBOB_commentary.html
" The Directory strongly recommends that each diocesan bishop should establish
norms for judging situations of grave and pressing spiritual need when Christians not in
full communion with the Catholic Church may be admitted to Holy Communion and to the
sacraments of Reconciliation and Anointing of the Sick. These norms should take into
account any which may have been established already by the Bishops’ Conference. In
the absence of norms established either by the diocesan bishop or by the Bishops’
Conference, Catholic priests are to follow those of the Directory. In order to guide
Catholic pastors in our countries, our Bishops’ Conferences now establish norms on this
important matter. There are two sets of norms: one concerning Christians from Eastern
Churches, the other concerning Christians from Churches and ecclesial communities of
the West. Catholic priests are to discern each individual case only in accord with the
norms established by their diocesan bishop, or, in the absence of such diocesan norms,
those which the Bishops’ Conferences of England and Wales, Ireland, and Scotland
promulgate in this document, each for its own territory. "
From the 1998 document “One Bread One Body” by the Bishops of England , Scotland , Wales and Ireland .
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www.irishtimes.com
http://www.interchurchfamilies.org/articles/OBOB_commentary.html
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