Pope's speech to US Congress [full text] [CC]

[Path_Finder]

Bekalc, there is the problem. If one is unsure where life begins then the greatest caution should be on protecting the life.

If I put a box before you and told you that there was a baby inside it how would you investigate that claim? Maybe you would put your ear to the box and listen I doubt you would take a sword and start plunging it inside to see if the tip had blood on it, or kick the box around.

If you are to investigate if and when life begins be merciful in your investigation.

Again, we can also listen to what the Church has said in documents:

Most recently, the Second Vatican Council, presided over by Paul VI, has most severely condemned abortion: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.”[17] The same Paul VI, speaking on this subject on many occasions, has not been afraid to declare that this teaching of the Church “has not changed and is unchangeable.”[18]

From a moral point of view this is certain: even if a doubt existed concerning whether the fruit of conception is already a human person, it is objectively a grave sin to dare to risk murder. “The one who will be a man is already one.”[20]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

The Church does address some of these issues already versus just winging it on our own.

 

[Path_Finder]

Sorry, I don’t buy your excuse for the murder of kids in wars. The war in Iraq was a “Just war”? George Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, and Obama doesn’t get a pass, either. If you started a needless war, then you know that what you’re doing will kill children, and you’re culpable.

So in turn, Saddam was convicted of genocide; so is the manner of non-intervention one is asserting here, is to allow genocide to happen?? I think this is a fair thing to say back to such kinds of arguments. Those who argue for “non-intervention” are guilty of the genocide that occurred just as much, sanctions killed people before in Iraq during the Clinton administration. Fair is far, if such allegations and “opinions” are stated.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Thoroflr, this thread is moving too quickly for me to keep up as I’m only on this page and it’s getting late where I am. But thank you for this. If you hear the Pope and I can tell you do, he speaks a lot about dialoguing with a wide spectrum of people. I’m certain he was joyful and heartfelt to have gay Christians greet him. The Pontiff seems to thrive among people. He seems to nearly have a perpetual smile on his face when he is among others.

Both of you, Sy Noe and Thorofir, thank you for sharing your thoughts in the midst of this fast moving thread. I would add that I hear the Pope (and see him) be accepting of all sorts of people. His concern for people of other faiths, and his recognition that we are a multi-faceted country, and he wants us all to be loved and cared for. I know people who were at the White House and will ask if they, as gay Christians, were welcomed. Perhaps from afar. LOL.

 

[Path_Finder]

Murder is intentional killing, especially when there is no excuse of self-defense or war. Soldiers who have killed people during war are not held accountable for murder unless they deliberately killed civilians. And leaders of countries are not held accountable for murder even if they are responsible for the deaths of many people in war. There are different grades of moral culpability.

Thanks so much to you, Suudy, Ichabode and others for your views that clarify these issues so well and allow us to fully absorb this Papal visit. All are very insightful posts.

 

[sallybutler]

Please take the “I” or “You” out of this, this is about what the Vatican has said, if one takes issue with the Vatican pronouncements on abortion, that is what should be debated, not whether we are also trying to take care of the homeless, feed the hungry and so on.

I doubt if I would see a conversation about feeding the hungry and then, interject, “well, why aren’t we talking about abortion?”, yet, this seems to go on in this conversation.

If one is adverse to the Catholic teaching, then one should state it instead of saying some people are defending this or that. This should cease as it is irrelevant to the conversation. I do not appreciate this.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

Are you saying that you have never tried to stop a discussion because the number of abortions was more important than the number of executions or the number of hungry children? That your ministry was more important than any other ministry?

If so, I apologize for not understanding your posts discussing abortion in threads not related to abortion.

 

[bekalc]

Bekalc, there is the problem. If one is unsure where life begins then the greatest caution should be on protecting the life.

If I put a box before you and told you that there was a baby inside it how would you investigate that claim? Maybe you would put your ear to the box and listen I doubt you would take a sword and start plunging it inside to see if the tip had blood on it, or kick the box around.

If you are to investigate if and when life begins be merciful in your investigation.

Did you read my post. I said I am pro life. I go to pray at abortion clinics. I know where life begins.

However there are other people I know. And they legitimately don’t believe life begins at conception. They aren’t even Christian let along Catholic. And so what the Bible says means nada to them.

These people don’t know Christ. So why should they care.

But some of them do care about people outside the womb. They care legitimately about suffering. And these people could be maybe moved by seeing Jesus working through others. Look at for example Dorothy Day.

We all have different charisms and gifts. Some people are called to be out there at the abortion clinics. Some people are called to be in the soap kitchens. But at the end of the day these are all interconnected. You might after all have a pregnant mother who needs to go to a soap kitchen. The Pope for this period of time felt that the Holy Spirit was calling him to stress the poor and the marginalized. Part of how we show we are pro life is by being consistent from the Womb to the Tomb. So its saying that the life of the immigrants matter. Its being consistent.

Abortion isn’t going to change until hearts change in this country. And hearts aren’t going to change until people encounter Christ… Encounter Him.

 

[ichabode]

George Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, and Obama doesn’t get a pass, either. If you started a needless war, then you know that what you’re doing will kill children, and you’re culpable.

You think it was a needless war. Saddam Hussein and his sons and regime were so bad and so evil I wonder if you fully understand the horrors that take place in Iraq. You can see much of it through ISIS today, but just to give you a sense of Saddam.

Saddam’s palace Abu Ghraib or prison had human shredding devices. Anyone who was to go there knew they would never leave and it was called by Iraqis the “The place of the End” The stories and atrocities were well known, so much so that when we liberated Iraq, and occupied Abu Ghraib as an interrogation and SF outpost that when driving enemy combatants to the palace almost every time they began to confess and give up military intel. You see you accuse President Bush of killings hundreds or even thousand, but your ignorance is what should be on trial. Try tens of thousands and spraying chemicals on peoples. You see Saddam is credited with well over 100,000 deaths. His torture devices would make you vomit. His sons snatched wives off the street and if their sons or husbands even raised a hand guess where they went while their wife was rapped. You guessed it Abu Ghraib.

Please don’t speak about what you do not know. The world is a better place with that excrement of a dictator gone. You do remember that he was tried and convicted by Iraqis for his crime, and sentenced to death. I wonder why?

 

[ichabode]

Did you read my post. I said I am pro life. I go to pray at abortion clinics. I know where life begins.

Yes, Bekalc. I was not saying that you do not know where life begins, but why abortion is so evil, and if anyone is unsure caution must be deployed.

 

[Thomas_White]

You think it was a needless war. Saddam Hussein and his sons and regime were so bad and so evil I wonder if you fully understand the horrors that take place in Iraq. You can see much of it through ISIS today, but just to give you a sense of Saddam.

Saddam’s palace Abu Ghraib or prison had human shredding devices. Anyone who was to go there knew they would never leave and it was called by Iraqis the “The place of the End” The stories and atrocities were well known, so much so that when we liberated Iraq, and occupied Abu Ghraib as an interrogation and SF outpost that when driving enemy combatants to the palace almost every time they began to confess and give up military intel. You see you accuse President Bush of killings hundreds or even thousand, but your ignorance is what should be on trial. Try tens of thousands and spraying chemicals on peoples. You see Saddam is credited with well over 100,000 deaths. His torture devices would make you vomit. His sons snatched wives off the street and if their sons or husbands even raised a hand guess where they went while their wife was rapped. You guessed it Abu Ghraib.

Please don’t speak about what you do not know. The world is a better place with that excrement of a dictator gone. You do remember that he was tried and convicted by Iraqis for his crime, and sentenced to death. I wonder why?

And you think the invasion fixed Iraq?

 

[MaryT777]

Did you read my post. I said I am pro life. I go to pray at abortion clinics. I know where life begins.

However there are other people I know. And they legitimately don’t believe life begins at conception. They aren’t even Christian let along Catholic. And so what the Bible says means nada to them.

These people don’t know Christ. So why should they care.

But some of them do care about people outside the womb. They care legitimately about suffering. And these people could be maybe moved by seeing Jesus working through others. Look at for example Dorothy Day.

We all have different charisms and gifts. Some people are called to be out there at the abortion clinics. Some people are called to be in the soap kitchens. But at the end of the day these are all interconnected. You might after all have a pregnant mother who needs to go to a soap kitchen. The Pope for this period of time felt that the Holy Spirit was calling him to stress the poor and the marginalized. Part of how we show we are pro life is by being consistent from the Womb to the Tomb. So its saying that the life of the immigrants matter. Its being consistent.

Abortion isn’t going to change until hearts change in this country. And hearts aren’t going to change until people encounter Christ… Encounter Him.

Well said.
Mary.

 

[LongingSoul]

Are you saying that you have never tried to stop a discussion because the number of abortions was more important than the number of executions or the number of hungry children? That your ministry was more important than any other ministry?

If so, I apologize for not understanding your posts discussing abortion in threads not related to abortion.

sallybulter, in a way you have explained Pope Francis’ psychology. Pope Francis being a follower of the Ignatian way which is about (for the serious Ignatians…) hourly conscience examination, is aware of the human tendency to justify our sins by esteeming our virtues. It’s a classic Christian and human flaw. Pope Francis is asking… are we using abortion and same sex marriage to prove our orthodoxy… to cover our failures in other key areas of faith. That’s not a new tactic in human psychology. People use it all the time in marriage counselling. “I’m so good in this area… therefore I should be excused of my flaws in that area”.

 

[AndyP2014]

Matthew 25:31 = 48:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations* will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The worst thing anyone can say IMHO about any action or as the above passage of Matthew’s Gospel illustrates inaction, is that they merit eternal punishment. You can have a fruitless discussion about which is worse abortion or failing to feed a starving child, if you like, but meriting eternal punishment is all I need to know.

 

[LongingSoul]

Did you read my post. I said I am pro life. I go to pray at abortion clinics. I know where life begins.

However there are other people I know. And they legitimately don’t believe life begins at conception. They aren’t even Christian let along Catholic. And so what the Bible says means nada to them.

These people don’t know Christ. So why should they care.

But some of them do care about people outside the womb. They care legitimately about suffering. And these people could be maybe moved by seeing Jesus working through others. Look at for example Dorothy Day.

We all have different charisms and gifts. Some people are called to be out there at the abortion clinics. Some people are called to be in the soap kitchens. But at the end of the day these are all interconnected. You might after all have a pregnant mother who needs to go to a soap kitchen. The Pope for this period of time felt that the Holy Spirit was calling him to stress the poor and the marginalized. Part of how we show we are pro life is by being consistent from the Womb to the Tomb. So its saying that the life of the immigrants matter. Its being consistent.

Abortion isn’t going to change until hearts change in this country. And hearts aren’t going to change until people encounter Christ… Encounter Him.

So true, belkac!

 

[LongingSoul]

The worst thing anyone can say IMHO about any action or as the above passage of Matthew’s Gospel illustrates inaction, is that they merit eternal punishment. You can have a fruitless discussion about which is worse abortion or failing to feed a starving child, if you like, but meriting eternal punishment is all I need to know.

You’re right. Jesus is so painfully clear here about our obligation to each other, there’s no way of twisting it out of existence. Out duty to care for each others wellbeing is clear.

 

[Catholic_Herald]

The Holy Father managed to deliver an address that challenged both sides of America’s cultural divide

More…

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I loved the speech to Congress. Pope Francis talked about so many things. I was impressed that the selling of weapons to other countries came up. Proof that Pope Francis knows where Congressional money comes from.

Please do not dismay that abortion was only mentioned briefly. I think we will hear much more about it this weekend, when he is at the World Meeting for Families. I noticed that the media completely ignored his statement during the speech to Congress about “respecting life at all stages” even though it garnered him applause. I don’t think they will be able to ignore his statements this weekend.

I was also amused that the headline from one major news outlet said that Pope Francis avoided politics at St Patrick’s in NYC. Hehehe! They obviously don’t understand that homilies are about the gospel; not politics.

 

[anthrogirl]

This is the greatest Pope to date. Proud to be a Catholic today. I especially like his prolife view on the death penalty. Way to go Pope Francis.

*“This conviction has led me, from the beginning of my ministry, to advocate at different levels for the global abolition of the death penalty. I am convinced that this way is the best, since every life is sacred, every human person is endowed with an inalienable dignity, and society can only benefit from the rehabilitation of those convicted of crimes. Recently my brother bishops here in the United States renewed their call for the abolition of the death penalty. Not only do I support them, but I also offer encouragement to all those who are convinced that a just and necessary punishment must never exclude the dimension of hope and the goal of rehabilitation.” *

Agreed. He’s inspiring. Not that other popes weren’t effective. But Pope Francis is special. We can all feel it, Catholics and non-Catholics alike. It’s almost the Holy Spirit is flowing out of him, with each word, with each action.

All music at our parish is selected with care to impart knowledge or bring breadth to the readings. Some church music may have wonderful messages but the tune leaves you flat. Other church music is so transcending it brings tears to your eyes when you hear/sing it. Pope Francis is the best church music I’ve heard in a long time. Listening to him brings tears to my eyes.

 

[Suudy]

The worst thing anyone can say IMHO about any action or as the above passage of Matthew’s Gospel illustrates inaction, is that they merit eternal punishment. You can have a fruitless discussion about which is worse abortion or failing to feed a starving child, if you like, but meriting eternal punishment is all I need to know.

There was a frequent poster here, cmatt25, who cited this exact slice of scripture to justify the same kind of moral equivalency between abortion and failing to feed the hungry. But let’s be clear here. Nobody is saying we should ignore the hungry. Nobody is saying we should take no action to help the hungry.

What is being said is that there is a hierarchy of evil. Some actions (and inactions) are more evil than others. And when we make a decision on where to invest our limited ability to act (as finite creatures we can only do so much), our effort should be focused on the greater evil. That’s not to say there should be no effort to combat hunger, homelessness, and poverty in general. It really is a both/and approach.

Which goes back to the OP and my earlier comments. The only criticism I have is that Papa Francis could have been explicit in both climate change and abortion, both capital punishment and same sex marriage, both immigration and euthanasia.

 

[Suudy]

Agreed. He’s inspiring. Not that other popes weren’t effective. But Pope Francis is special. We can all feel it, Catholics and non-Catholics alike. It’s almost the Holy Spirit is flowing out of him, with each word, with each action.

And the Holy Spirit wasn’t flowing out of Papa Benedict, Papa JPII, or Papa Paul VI with each word, with each action?

Pope Francis is the best church music I’ve heard in a long time. Listening to him brings tears to my eyes.

So, it takes an emotional reaction to qualify as “Best Pope Ever!”? Frankly, I don’t understand that point of view. I’m trying to remember who stated here on CAF, but it was something like “We’ve left the era of the primacy of the intellect, and entered the era of the primacy of the passions.” Comments like this validate that point of view. People are more moved by emotion, than by intellect.

For my part, I think Papa Francis is equally great as Papa Benedict and Papa JPII (the only popes I’ve known since I’ve become Catholic). His tactics are different, and I disagree with them. But he’s just as Catholic as the other popes. He’s not more Catholic because he inspires more people. He’s not more Catholic because he feels more warm and fuzzy. He’s the pope, and he’s Catholic. That’s it.

 

[LongingSoul]

And the Holy Spirit wasn’t flowing out of Papa Benedict, Papa JPII, or Papa Paul VI with each word, with each action?

So, it takes an emotional reaction to qualify as “Best Pope Ever!”? Frankly, I don’t understand that point of view. I’m trying to remember who stated here on CAF, but it was something like “We’ve left the era of the primacy of the intellect, and entered the era of the primacy of the passions.” Comments like this validate that point of view. People are more moved by emotion, than by intellect.

For my part, I think Papa Francis is equally great as Papa Benedict and Papa JPII (the only popes I’ve known since I’ve become Catholic). His tactics are different, and I disagree with them. But he’s just as Catholic as the other popes. He’s not more Catholic because he inspires more people. He’s not more Catholic because he feels more warm and fuzzy. He’s the pope, and he’s Catholic. That’s it.

How come you get to tell people how to feel?