Pope's speech to US Congress [full text] [CC]

[Romans615]

Who murders a starving kid? Is it legal to do so?

Apparently laws against child neglect are championed by the left at the same time they champion laws to murder them in the womb. Who’s got their morality messed up?

Name a single pro-life advocate that thinks any child should starve or be permitted to starve. Just one will do.

I already addressed the hypocrisy on both sides a few posts ago…

Why are you asking me to defend that which I did not assert?

You’re dodging, and I don’t play that game.

 

[Suudy]

This is the exact kind of conversation that the Evil One wants us to have. Doubting the Vicar of Christ is exactly what he Evil One wants to happen.

I swear, I can see Screwtape and Wormwood laughing gleefully about this conversation right now.

Who’s doubting the pope? Nobody here thinks he’s doing anything contrary to the Church or the faithful. All there you are seeing is disagreement on tactics, not the end goal.

 

[Path_Finder]

Speaking as a Canadian who was homeless once, I whittled away to 135 pounds while being six feet tall. It’s entirely possible for North Americans to become malnourished through lack of food.

So if it is morally equivalent, is this point of view saying killing a hungry person so they are dead as in abortion would be the same? I’m certainly not calling the two equal. This logic seems convoluted and there are Christian Charities that feed the hungry, we give to charity to help the poor.

 

[Path_Finder]

This is the exact kind of conversation that the Evil One wants us to have. Doubting the Vicar of Christ is exactly what he Evil One wants to happen.

I swear, I can see Screwtape and Wormwood laughing gleefully about this conversation right now.

This quells conversation. I’m not positive if every Pontiff of the past 2000 years has been beyond reproach.

 

[Romans615]

Name a pro-life person that advocates for blowing up children. I can name several pro-“choice” advocates for the intentional killing of innocent unborn children.

Straw man. I never asserted that anyone who is pro-life advocates children dying in a war.

I DID assert that if you care more about the murder of innocent unborn children than you do the murder of innocent born children, then you’ve got an ethical quagmire to ponder.

 

[sallybutler]

Yes, it’s just as evil. Who is disputing that if it is killing the child and there are Christian Charities that feed the needy. I don’t see where this conversation is leading.

Any time anyone suggests that one should/could support anything other than pro-life efforts, you accuse us of not dealing with the only issue allowed to be discussed. Until there is not one single abortion anywhere, it seems like you think no other issue should be considered or supported.

I could be wrong about what you think about all non-abortion issues. However, if I don’t support such organizations as Catholic Charities, and no one else does because they are only concerned about abortion, than who will feed the needy?

By suggesting that anyone who doesn’t make abortion their only or primary concern, you are suggesting that we aren’t as Catholic or Christian or good as those who do, instead of considering that maybe we have been called to work in a different area than you have been called to work in.

 

[Romans615]

This quells conversation. I’m not positive if every Pontiff of the past 2000 years has been beyond reproach.

I dunno. As a non-Catholic, I’m pretty disgusted by those Catholics who cry foul when they’re called conservatives, yet they’re OK with saying that the Pope is espousing Marxism.

 

[Path_Finder]

Any time anyone suggests that one should/could support anything other than pro-life efforts, you accuse us of not dealing with the only issue allowed to be discussed. Until there is not one single abortion anywhere, it seems like you think no other issue should be considered or supported.

I could be wrong about what you think about all non-abortion issues. However, if I don’t support such organizations as Catholic Charities, and no one else does because they are only concerned about abortion, than who will feed the needy?

By suggesting that anyone who doesn’t make abortion their only or primary concern, you are suggesting that we aren’t as Catholic or Christian or good as those who do, instead of considering that maybe we have been called to work in a different area than you have been called to work in.

Yes, you are wrong, on about all of your assumptions. I could make the assumption that people who try to bring these arguments up are trying to rationalize tacitly supporting abortion.

 

[Romans615]

Any time anyone suggests that one should/could support anything other than pro-life efforts, you accuse us of not dealing with the only issue allowed to be discussed. Until there is not one single abortion anywhere, it seems like you think no other issue should be considered or supported.

I could be wrong about what you think about all non-abortion issues. However, if I don’t support such organizations as Catholic Charities, and no one else does because they are only concerned about abortion, than who will feed the needy?

By suggesting that anyone who doesn’t make abortion their only or primary concern, you are suggesting that we aren’t as Catholic or Christian or good as those who do, instead of considering that maybe we have been called to work in a different area than you have been called to work in.

Agreed. Good post. Much of the pro-life crowd sadly doesn’t understand that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and no, by that I do not mean that the issue should be soft pedaled.

 

[Path_Finder]

I dunno. As a non-Catholic, I’m pretty disgusted by those Catholics who cry foul when they’re called conservatives, yet they’re OK with saying that the Pope is espousing Marxism.

Perhaps one should confront such a Catholic for saying such things, I haven’t.

 

[Romans615]

Yes, you are wrong, on about all of your assumptions. I could make the assumption that people who try to bring these arguments up are trying to rationalize tacitly supporting abortion.

Yes, but she’s correct and you are mistaken.

I spoke with a friend recently who asked me “You’re a pro-lifer, so let me ask you, what is it with these people who have ‘Abortion on the brain’? It’s all they seem to care about.”
I understand my friend’s sentiment. Abortion is a key issue but it’s far from the only one demanding our attention as Christians.

 

[Suudy]

I already addressed the hypocrisy on both sides a few posts ago…

Why are you asking me to defend that which I did not assert?

You’re dodging, and I don’t play that game.

Then I’ll ask it plainly. Do you agree with Sally that a not feeding a starving kid and abortion are morally equivalent? Not that they are both evil, but if they are equally evil.

 

[anthony022071]

You really don’t see that a defenseless 1 year old kid starving to death anywhere in the world is just as evil as aborting that child? You really don’t see that a defenseless 1 year old child being blown to bits is just as evil as aborting that child? I certainly do.

They aren’t equally evil. Starvation is an evil condition, not an evil action, unless someone intended it to happen. And the unintentional killing of children in war is an evil event that does not make the one who caused it guilty of murder, as with the intentional killing of children in abortion.

 

[Romans615]

Perhaps one should confront such a Catholic for saying such things, I haven’t.

Glad to hear that. I’ve seen a lot of whining here along these lines.

As a side point, another whinefest that I find sad is the attitude of:
“Oh, the Pope should stick to what he knows, and not climate issues or monetary issues” Yet, it’s fine for Tea Party members of Congress to speak out on this. Hmm.

 

[Suudy]

Straw man. I never asserted that anyone who is pro-life advocates children dying in a war.

I DID assert that if you care more about the murder of innocent unborn children than you do the murder of innocent born children, then you’ve got an ethical quagmire to ponder.

You use the word murder. That’s an intentional act. Name a single pro-life advocate that think the intentional killing of children after that are born is acceptable. You are putting up the strawman.

 

[Romans615]

They aren’t equally evil. Starvation is an evil condition, not an evil action, unless someone intended it to happen. And the unintentional killing of children in war is an evil event that does not make the one who caused it guilty of murder, as with the intentional killing of children in abortion.

Sorry, I don’t buy your excuse for the murder of kids in wars. The war in Iraq was a “Just war”? George Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, and Obama doesn’t get a pass, either. If you started a needless war, then you know that what you’re doing will kill children, and you’re culpable.

 

[Romans615]

You use the word murder. That’s an intentional act. Name a single pro-life advocate that think the intentional killing of children after that are born is acceptable. You are putting up the strawman.

Nice talking with you. If you’d like to take that as a sign that I don’t have a good reply, fine. Some things are just not worth the effort.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Murder is murder, regardless of whether one has been born yet or not.

Not legally in the US and in many other countries.

 

[Romans615]

You use the word murder. That’s an intentional act. Name a single pro-life advocate that think the intentional killing of children after that are born is acceptable. You are putting up the strawman.

PS: I already answered your question.

 

[Suudy]

Any time anyone suggests that one should/could support anything other than pro-life efforts, you accuse us of not dealing with the only issue allowed to be discussed. Until there is not one single abortion anywhere, it seems like you think no other issue should be considered or supported.

I could be wrong about what you think about all non-abortion issues. However, if I don’t support such organizations as Catholic Charities, and no one else does because they are only concerned about abortion, than who will feed the needy?

By suggesting that anyone who doesn’t make abortion their only or primary concern, you are suggesting that we aren’t as Catholic or Christian or good as those who do, instead of considering that maybe we have been called to work in a different area than you have been called to work in.

Yes, but she’s correct and you are mistaken.

I spoke with a friend recently who asked me “You’re a pro-lifer, so let me ask you, what is it with these people who have ‘Abortion on the brain’? It’s all they seem to care about.”
I understand my friend’s sentiment. Abortion is a key issue but it’s far from the only one demanding our attention as Christians.

You and Sally are fond of the word “only”. Who’s being exclusive?