Pope's words about daily mass goers

[Crocus]

Context, and a little different turn of phrase, makes a huge difference?

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-prayer-is-about-gods-love-not-wordiness-27681

The first way is the mode of the hypocrite, who when he prays wants to be seen and admired, he said, noting that this is like the scandal of people who often go to Church, but then turn around and spread hate, speaking badly about people. “This is a scandal! Better not to go to church: live like that, as an atheist,” he said.

Comments anyone? Retractions?

Can we stop skewering the Pope and presume he means to teach lessons we need to hear? And be wise in choosing news reports.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Comments anyone? Retractions?

Can we stop skewering the Pope and presume he means to teach lessons we need to hear? And be wise in choosing news reports.

My first comment is that we should be able to have reasonable and frank discussions of things the Pope says without being accused of “skewering the Pope”. I don’t mind Francis or the Jesuits and I generally support the Pope, the Papacy, etc. That does not mean that I think every word that comes out of the man’s mouth is golden and above any possible discussion or reproach. We all know he sometimes says things that don’t come off the best, it’s a habit he has.

My second comment is that I decided to skip the whole “dueling news reports” baloney and go straight to the Vatican website with the transcripts of the audience. He made his remarks apparently in Italian (they did not make it into the official English translation) and what he said, based on plugging the Italian into Google Translate, which based on my limited knowledge of Italian looks fairly accurate, was this:

And how many times we see the scandal of those people who go to church and stay there all day or go every day and then live hating others or talking badly about people. This is a scandal! Better not to go to church: live like that, like I was an atheist. But if you go to church, live as a son, as a brother and give a true testimony, not a counter-testimony.

This is in the context of Jesus’ teachings on hypocrisy from Matthew 6, which was the scripture being covered/ taught at this particular audience.

It’s not that the Pope said anything so horrible or unreasonable, simply that very few people, in USA anyway (I don’t know about Italy, Argentina or anywhere else the Pope goes), bother to go to daily Mass or daily church, and of those who make the effort, the percentage of hypocrites seems very low. Sure, there is always room for improvement in anyone’s behavior, but the Pope in making this statement seems to be out of touch with the kind of people who, again in the USA anyway, are making the effort to attend daily Mass or spend a day at church.

It may well be that he sees around him a lot of people who make an effort to appear super-holy or show off to curry favor. It may also be that he didn’t mean for the statement to come off as a suggestion that many people who attend daily Mass are hypocritical. I doubt that anyone going to daily Mass is going to lose sleep over the Pope’s statement (if they even find out about it) but I wish he would have been more sensitive in this particular case.

In my experience, people are going to daily Mass or daily church usually because they feel a need to be there, not to show off - nobody notices, nobody even cares. If they are having issues with charity towards others, that may be the precise reason why they need to be at church so much, to get help with that issue.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Here’s another viewpoint that I agree with in part - the part that deals with what the Pope said.

I’m on the fence about the Cupich part because when people start complaining about Cupich in the same breath as the Pope, especially for a situation like this where Cupich wasn’t involved in any way, it starts to look more like Pope-bashing. I’m glad Cupich is not my bishop, but I could say the same thing about some of the traditionalist bishops who go too far in the other direction.

Does The Mass Make A Difference?

Here's something from twitter: and https://twitter.com/TommasoNin/status/1080484588584083459 And I don't want to get into a dispute about the Pope.

www.patheos.com

In particular, she says:

But this quote from the Pope really bugs me. Let’s suppose his objective was to criticize hypocrites. Yes, I suppose it is possible that there are hard-hearted people who go to mass daily to be a show-off. It seems hard to imagine a culture where this gains admiration from others in the secular world — are there other parts of the world where daily mass attendance gains one recognition? — and maybe it’s a Vatican-specific thing that he really speaks of people climbing the church hierarchy with pretenses to be holy when they really care about nothing but that next appointment, in which case it’s merely a dumb thing to talk about in a General Audience rather than among Vaticanites. But (and again, maybe it’s cultural) I just can’t see this being about people who are daily church-goers in order to be show-offs, rather than people who go to church thinking they are doing the right thing and yet also being sinful, because I can’t imagine there are more than two or three of the former people in existence in the first place.

These were my same thoughts and pretty much what I already posted above.
Almost nobody in USA is going to admire you for going to daily Mass. More likely they’ll think you’re deluded, weird, have no place else to go (similar to the old people who sit around McDonalds), or have a personal problem/ one foot in the grave.

 

[Crocus]

Agree with most of what you said. Point is, the summary of the teaching was

The pope emphasized that a Christian is not someone who is concerned with being better than everyone else – Christians know that they are also sinners – but with the revelation of the ‘Our Father,’ they also know themselves to be children of God.

It is unfortunate when people get baited into focussing on headlines and snippets that detract from the intended message.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I know some people are out to play Gotcha with this Pope.

But I understand the undercurrent of people worried that this Pope, as a Jesuit particularly, is putting social justice ahead of devotion. The Church did exactly that when I was a teen and a twentysomething, and while it wasn’t the cause of all my problems, it also didn’t help me in my faith walk.

 

[poche]

I think that the person who put the title on the piece misled the people.

 

[angel12]

I’m not aware of anybody who goes to daily Mass trying to “look holier than thou”.

Perhaps, as a priest, bishop, and Pooe, his experience is wider than yours.

I always think these statements of his are reflecting some culture that’s not necessarily the USA.

He’s not Pope of the USA. He’s Pope of the entire Church.

At the same time, it can be discouraging to hear statements like this suggesting that the Pope thinks devout people are somehow hypocritical.

Which, one more time, he did not say. If I refer to “people who think the earth is flat,” I am not, in any way, suggesting that all, or even many, people think the earth is flat. I am referring to a specific set of people. Just as Pope Francis did.

 

[angel12]

Can we stop skewering the Pope and presume he means to teach lessons we need to hear?

There are people who seem to just look for ways to be offended by Pope Francis.

 

[poche]

Why would you feel insulted? Are you a person who thinks it is ok to go to mass every day and sit in judgement of other people who aren’t as holy as you like to think you are?

 

[poche]

It could also be because of the many people who like to quote the Holy Father out of context. Many of those people should know better.

 

[MikeInVA]

I read about this last night and it makes me very sad.

This is a strawman attack. Sure, there may be people who go to daily Mass but don’t seem to reflect in their daily actions, but to use the Pope’s words, “who am I to judge” what is in their hearts? Who knows what burdens they bring to the Lord every day?

I go to daily Mass, but I am a sinner. I go to daily Mass because I am a sinner. I want to grow closer to Christ. I’m not there yet, so I keep going to Mass.

As I remember scripture, Jesus did not admonish hypocrites to stop praying but to pray better.

Again to paraphrase the Pope’s words, the Church is a field hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

 

[MikeInVA]

Maybe because ‘daily Mass goers’ come across as holier than ‘just weekly Mass goers’? Again, kind of hyperbole but he surely does get people thinking.

Hurtful hyperbole. I have never met a daily Mass goer who has a holier than thou attitude towards those who attend less frequently. The only thinking this generates is doubt in our Church, which is not a good thing.

 

[angel12]

I go to daily Mass, but I am a sinner. I go to daily Mass because I am a sinner. I want to grow closer to Christ.

Then he wasn’t referring to you, and there’s no reason for it to make you sad.

 

[tafan2]

No, I am not. There have been periods where I go to daily mass, but more often, I go once or twice a week. I understand that its quite a burden to go every single day. But I know quite a few people who do. I am very close to several people who do. And I am an acquaintance with several others. None of them fit the Holy Father’s words.

When he puts forth the rhetorical question “How many times do we see people …”, there is only one implication, the answer he is implying is “a lot of times”. And this thread proves that point, as more than one post now assumes that is the case:

Probably because those who go every day with it attempting to live the faith put up the most pretence of piety, and thereby give the most scanda

or

Are you a person who thinks it is ok to go to mass every day and sit in judgement of other people who aren’t as holy as you like to think you are

The simple fact is, those people are at the most, very rare. Its just too much of a commitment to do so as a pretense.

Now, none of the people I know who go will likely think twice about the Holy Father’s words in this case. They won’t be offended. But that’s not the point. We, the Church, need these daily mass attendees. We are dependent on their prayers. We need more of them. They need to be encouraged, and we do not need to be fostering the attitude of “why go to daily mass? those people are just a bunch of hypocrites”.

 

[MikeInVA]

there’s no reason for it to make you sad.

I am sad that the Pope continues to sew confusion among the faithful. If he had encouraged daily Mass attendees to not become complacent at Mass would be one thing; to discourage them from attending Mass is another.

 

[angel12]

I am sad that the Pope continues to sew confusion among the faithful.

He’s not sowing confusion. People who twist his obvious meaning are sowing confusion.

 

[tafan2]

I do not think we have twisted his meaning. If I was to say “How many blacks/jews/Hispanics (pick a minority) do we see who do X (pick your negative stereotype)”, no one would come to my defense and say: " why be offended if you are black/jew/Hispanic unless you do X?".

Furthermore, as to the media taking his words out of context, he should realize by now that’s how the media works with every public figure. That is why they need to be very careful about what they say.

Again, the comments by yourself and others on this thread illustrate very well how effective his rhetorical question was.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I always think these statements of his are reflecting some culture that’s not necessarily the USA.

He is Pope of the USA and of the Western World too. We need help and guidance just as much as any other continent or country. Maybe more.

I support my Pope. I would like to think my Pope supports my spirituality and would encourage people to go to Mass daily, not make it sound like there’s something wrong with those of us who do.

I’m not going to get all posterior-hurt because he said this, but it made me feel a little sad, and also made me wonder how he somehow doesn’t realize how this stuff he says is going to be interpreted.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Consider yourself lucky then, because I know quite a few people who on the surface look like very devout and holy people, but who have attitudes towards others who are different than they are that are anything but Christ-like.

Even this forum has it’s share of them, I am sure of that. Just look at a thread that talks about Fr. Jim Martin or some other “non-traditional” leaning person.

Anyone who is so worked up about what the Holy Father is saying, IMHO needs to do some self examination.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I hope you’re not saying I need to “do some self-examination” because I dared say I was concerned about something the Pope said.

The people on the other side would want me to “do some self-examination” because I agree with the Pope/ Vatican on some other issues, such as the capital punishment catechism change.

It feels like when you’re a thoughtful Catholic, you are constantly getting shot by one side, shot by the other, or shot by both sides.