Portugal: Catholic priests quitting church 'to marry'

[josie_L]

In other words you agree.

The thing is, yes there were saints who remained celibate and chaste for life and yes it had to have taken the supernatural to achieve that, but not everyone experiences the supernatural on that level. With that said, the exceptions shouldn’t make the rule.

But it takes an exceptional person to be a priest or religious.

 

[Thorns]

But it takes an exceptional person to be a priest or religious.

In theory, yes I agree. However, reality has a different story to tell, particularly that not all priests or religious are exceptional. Thats why I still am of the opinion that the few exceptions who can shouldn’t set the standard for the average majority.

 

[po18guy]

Saint Norbert, on the occasion of his ordination, said:

“O Priest! You are not yourself because you are God. You are not of yourself because you are the servant and minister of Christ. You are not your own because you are the spouse of the Church. You are not yourself because you are the mediator between God and man. You are not from yourself because you are nothing. What then are you? Nothing and everything. O Priest! Take care lest what was said to Christ on the cross be said to you: ‘He saved others, himself he cannot save!’”

Thus, the disobedient priests want it both ways. I pray that the fasting and prayers of the faithful will drive the spirit of disobedience out from among them.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The idea that the numbers of seminarians and priests have “tanked” is a myth, see here:

corpus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=565

It’s not that the numbers of clergy have sunk worldwide - they have remained steady, but the numbers of faithful, especially in Asia and Africa, have exploded!

 

[po18guy]

The idea that the numbers of seminarians and priests have “tanked” is a myth, see here:

corpus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=565

It’s not that the numbers of clergy have sunk worldwide - they have remained steady, but the numbers of faithful, especially in Asia and Africa, have exploded!

Asia and Africa are the future of the Church, now that Europe and America are (more or less, respectively) abandoning it. Pope Francis’ recent appointments to Cardinal reflect this shift.

incaelo.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/pope-francis-announces-16-new-cardinals-from-the-worlds-peripheries/

 

[YoungTradCath]

Id argue that the ultimate commitment of the human person to a spousal union with God is martyrdom, not celibacy.

Also, it is against the natural law to remain celibate. Human beings are ordered to procreate.

Lol so are you saying that celibates are somehow breaking the natural law (ie sinning) by being celibate?

 

[YoungTradCath]

There are certain freak examples (like myself, who are 100% asexual and have never had a sexual urge or thought) but this is in no way natural, so much so my universities psychology department actually asked if they could study me. Some people do remain celibate their entire lives, but here is the thing; they can and do experience desire. Desire for marriage and union is natural and the norm, and everyone should at least have a shot at it.

I actually do. As an asexual (or natural celibate as I suppose the church might label it) I do not consider this to be a gift, I consider it as an unusual psychological oddity/malfunction, or like being left handed.

That’s not to say I feel guilty or regret this, in some ways I consider myself lucky not feeling an emotional need for companionship but at the same time I am aware this cold, stoic (“robotic” is how one of my friends described it) nature is often unnerving.

I may not feel this pull, but I can observe quite clearly humans are designed to find a mate. It’s their choice if they want to act upon it, but by design we’re nudged towards it.

And you’ve never made a decision in your life that turned out to be a gross miscalculation? I fail to see why they should be punished for realizing their true nature and purpose.

What you are saying would seem to destroy not just celibacy (which is obviously not inherently connected to Orders) but the entire vocation of the religious life. Of course, religious are not celibate per se, they are chaste. Celibates can’t have sex because they can’t get married. Chaste religious can’t get married because they can’t have sex. Either way, neither can have sex or get married. And while celibacy can be dispensed with, [solemn] chastity, which is an inherent part of vowed religious life, cannot be. And the Church believes the religious life to be an inherent part of Herself. It can’t go away. It was certainly and directly intended by God that certain men and women in an especial way live according to the Evangelical Counsels to a degree and in a way superior to that of everyone else. Religious life, and chastity as a necessary part of it, can’t go away. And certainly no one would argue that religious are freaks of nature exempt from the natural law. ??

Also, was Jesus Himself not celibate (or chaste if you want)? Is Jesus an exception to the natural law? No, otherwise how could he be fully human? Don’t want to go down that avenue, yikes…

Also, what? Being left handed is “an unusual psychological oddity/malfunction?” Really? I’m left handed. To say this sounds like some weirdo pop psychology/19th century phrenology nonsense.

Certainly it is everyone’s choice if they want to act upon desire to find a mate, but that doesn’t mean that everyone under every possible circumstance should be allowed to marry. How dogmatic. The Church does not say this.

Of course I’ve made gross miscalculations. But for both of these, I didn’t get a second chance at it: I moved on, failed one more time, moved on again, now I’m in the middle of a third “replacement” (non-relationship) and I’m not too marred by it.

I think you are coming close to castigating whole swaths of people and questioning the legitimacy of religious life.

 

[MacBP]

And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

I do think even if preists could get married we’d have the odd case of adultery every now and then but much of it would cease. It would also become considerably easier to identify pedophiles come to think about it (or gay ones, since I know Benedict was on a LGB witcth-hunt within the Clergy’s ranks and I don’t think that has stopped.)

…

Let’s look at this from another perspective, Eastern Rite priests can be married; why are they not even on the radar for sex abuse cases? Can you think of an example of sex abuse in a Byzantine rite parish? I can’t.

Catholic clergy do not have a higher rate of abuse than the general population (source). This is a bad case of availability heuristics, the belief that something occurs more because you here about it more. That’s the same phenomenon that is occurring with respect to Easter Rite priests. The reason you never hear about Eastern Rite abuses is a function of how few there are.

 

[MacBP]

I have even seen the great lengths single people go through to seek out women, like even travelling to other countries to meet them. I imagine for an individual who is banned from having any hope of marrying, with idle time on their hands, as well as being more fiercly attacked and tempted by the evil one, that this just creates a more desperate situation for the individual, where they might engage in things they otherwise wouldnt have.

Sexual frustration, the burning that Paul spoke of within the bible. “It is better to marry than to burn”.

A married man has a release for sexual desire into a positive outlet in a mutual loving relationship, whereas a celibate cleric does not and never can. I have noticed that “blue balled” individuals (especially middle aged to older men) sometimes go to spectacular lengths to get “laid”, cheating, prostitution, sometimes even bisexuality…Apparently pedophilia in this case.

I do not think the abuse would vanish 100%, you do get the odd case in every section of society but the number of cases of sex abuse would drop dramatically without a doubt.

Honestly, though, this doesn’t make sense. Even if we accept the premise that “sexual pressure” can build up to the point where it explodes, would child molestation be your first outlet! Really… wouldn’t it make far more sense to hire a prostitute? Can non-eubophilic sexual attraction even be transformed into eubophilic sexual attraction?

For that matter, why punish priests guilty of abuse if we subscribe to this theory of abuse? This would make them non-criminally responsible.

 

[phil19034]

And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

You are correct here… other institutions have a MUCH LARGER number occurrences than the Catholic Church. The only difference is that the media focuses on the Catholic Church when these things happen. When Joe Baptist Minister cheats on his wife, it doesn’t make national or international news. He simply loses his job and then moves to another state, county, etc and starts a new Church. A person who is inclined to use prostitutes; abuse minors; and other immoral, sexual behaviors is not cured by simply getting married. Just look at the number of politicians who have been disgraced by doing these things.

An unmarried priest can focus 100% of his time on the Church. A married priest has to split his time between his family and the Church. Lay people do this between family and work. However, we lay people do not have to “be there” for hundreds or thousands of parish members when they need us. Lay people don’t get a call in the middle of the night from Sally Parishioner saying “Father, my grandmother is at Mercy Hospital dying and needs you right away.” Lay people don’t have to stop what they are doing an pray the LOTH at least five times a day, nor perform at least one Mass every day. What happens when a Parish member needs a priest to come on Christmas Eve or during Christmas dinner? What happens when a Parish member needs the priest while the priest’s child needs him? Who suffers? The priest’s wife and child, or the parish? This is why Jesus and St. Paul recommended (did not mandate, but highly recommended) the unmarried priesthood. This is also why Bishops cannot be currently married in the Catholic nor Orthodox Churches. I’m not saying it can’t be done. But due to the sheer size of the Roman Rite, it makes scandal very possible.

As note: married priests are not allowed to have sex. That’s why a priest cannot get married (Catholic nor Orthodox). The Latin Church stopped allowing married men from becoming priests (in general) 1000 years ago because they were too often having to relieve priests of their faculties because they were getting their wives pregnant.

Many, if not most, married Latin priests advocate for the priesthood to remain unmarried. A protestant minister, while a full time job, doesn’t have the same requirements as being a Catholic priest. I think its easy to say all priests should be able to get married, however, marriage isn’t the reason why people are not becoming priests. Because if it was, each diocese would have thousands of Deacons.

Food for thought.

God Bless.

 

[PennyinCanada]

It’s very tiresome to hear how married priests would seem to alleviate sexual abuse. Most of the abuse was occurring with boys who had passed puberty, so it was homosexual abuse of minors. We don’t hear from the media how it was homosexual men abusing older teenage boys because they are promoting the homosexual agenda as normal. As for pedophiles, finding a job that gives you a trusted position within the community and access to children would be attractive to them. A man targeting children is not interested in marrying women. How very convenient for them that they can hide in the Catholic priesthood where singleness is normal and prey on our children. Teachers, coaches etc that have a trusted position in the community will also be attractive to pedophiles. This strategy of getting a job that gives access to children is never brought up when discussing this. It’s the Church that has been victimized by these men. Rather we keep hearing how it’s always the Church that needs to change. A similar vein is blaming the rape victim for the crime because she dressed a certain way and did her hair and makeup a certain way. It deflects from the crime of the criminal, and our society just wouldn’t hear of that nonsense today, and rightly so. The same treatment is not given the Church. We can only quote scripture that the world hated Jesus first so do not be surprised when they hate you. May God help us.

 

[Estevao]

Okay so I ignored the blog and read the Portuguese news story, and according to the organization pushing for an end to priestly celibacy, there’s a mass exodus of priests in Portugal because they can’t get married. Hmm, I dunno, is this organization a reliable source on this phenomenon?

There’s a priest I listen to on youtube (Padre Paulo Ricardo) from Brazil who has talked about the crisis of newly ordained priests not getting on well in the position. He places much of the blame on the failure to recognize in seminary formation and in the life of these priests that a priest lives a life of sacrifice, not a life of luxury with all the perks of running a parish. Of course what would he know about this situation in Portugal being a priest in the Lusophone world? I bet it’s because they aren’t getting laid, that must be it.

 

[josie_L]

In theory, yes I agree. However, reality has a different story to tell, particularly that not all priests or religious are exceptional. Thats why I still am of the opinion that the few exceptions who can shouldn’t set the standard for the average majority.

It worked rather well for almost 2000 years, i.e., the shortage of priests is a recent phenomenon. Moreover, we need to remind ourselves what the purpose of the Church is, i.e., to evangelize society, and as such, culture, not the other way around, i.e., the Church is a reminder to this sex-obsessed world the need to value purity and chastity, and that can be demonstrated through our clergy and religious, as well as the laity.

 

[Tigg]

In theory, yes I agree. However, reality has a different story to tell, particularly that not all priests or religious are exceptional. Thats why I still am of the opinion that the few exceptions who can shouldn’t set the standard for the average majority.

Therefore, you would totally disregard the working of the Holy Spirit, who in actuality, is the One Who calls the man forth to accept a life of total commitment and sacrifice of a higher nature. The desire for priesthood does not come from within a man himself. And in cooperation with this calling and grace, these priests and religious are to seek personal holiness and practice all the virtues proper to their vocation.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

It’s very tiresome to hear how married priests would seem to alleviate sexual abuse. Most of the abuse was occurring with boys who had passed puberty, so it was homosexual abuse of minors. We don’t hear from the media how it was homosexual men abusing older teenage boys because they are promoting the homosexual agenda as normal. As for pedophiles, finding a job that gives you a trusted position within the community and access to children would be attractive to them. A man targeting children is not interested in marrying women. How very convenient for them that they can hide in the Catholic priesthood where singleness is normal and prey on our children. Teachers, coaches etc that have a trusted position in the community will also be attractive to pedophiles. This strategy of getting a job that gives access to children is never brought up when discussing this. It’s the Church that has been victimized by these men. Rather we keep hearing how it’s always the Church that needs to change. A similar vein is blaming the rape victim for the crime because she dressed a certain way and did her hair and makeup a certain way. It deflects from the crime of the criminal, and our society just wouldn’t hear of that nonsense today, and rightly so. The same treatment is not given the Church. We can only quote scripture that the world hated Jesus first so do not be surprised when they hate you. May God help us.

Indeed. I could not agree more.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

I do think even if preists could get married we’d have the odd case of adultery every now and then but much of it would cease. It would also become considerably easier to identify pedophiles come to think about it (or gay ones, **since I know Benedict was on a LGB witcth-hunt within the Clergy’s ranks and I don’t think that has stopped.) **

…

You know just how?

Many rabid anti-Catholics seem to be ex-Catholics who are frustrated in not getting their way or getting doctrines changed to suit their personal or subjective wants.

Your posts propagate utter disdain and contempt for the Church and her leaders in this forum, with untrue or exaggerated claims.

The Pope Emeritus does not deserve the lie you have stated above. The fact is Pope Benedict XVI made it more difficult for active homosexual priests to enter the priesthood, thus getting directly to the source of the problem. Also, steps have been taken in every diocese to ensure that anyone who works for the Church must participate in a training program aimed at curtailing the abuse of minors.

Facts in direct refutation of other myths:

Myth: Children have been the main victims of priestly sexual abuse.

Fact: Since more than 95 percent of all the victims of priestly sexual abuse, as reported by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, are not prepubescent, that means that adolescents have been the primary victims.

Myth: Pedophile priests have been the problem.
Fact: Homosexual priests have been the problem. Proof: 81 percent of the victims have been male, and more than 95 percent have been postpubescent. When males have sex with postpubescent males, it is called homosexuality.

Myth: The problem is on-going.
Fact: The homosexual scandal took place mostly between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s. In the last ten years, the average number of credible accusations made against 40,000 priests is in the single digits.

Myth: The Church’s repressive teachings on sexuality are the problem.
Fact: It was liberals outside the Church who pushed for the sexual revolution, and it was liberals in the Church who abetted the revolution in the seminaries. Moreover, it was liberals who promoted therapy as the way to deal with molesters, instead of using punitive measures.
,

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by NekoNecro
And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

I do think even if preists could get married we’d have the odd case of adultery every now and then but much of it would cease.

Everything you say is the opposite of the truth being uncovered by the Royal Commission into institutional abuse that is happening in Australia right now.

The Salvation Army were examined first and they don’t have celibate priests. No other organisations religious or secular have celibate priests but all have seen the same epidemic of this type of abuse beginning in the late 60’s.

 

[Thorns]

Therefore, you would totally disregard the working of the Holy Spirit, who in actuality, is the One Who calls the man forth to accept a life of total commitment and sacrifice of a higher nature. The desire for priesthood does not come from within a man himself. And in cooperation with this calling and grace, these priests and religious are to seek personal holiness and practice all the virtues proper to their vocation.

I dont believe this to be true overall, no. In a few exceptional cases, sure I agree.

 

[SuperLuigi]

However foul sexuality might be viewed by traditionalists

,

Traditionalists are the ones having kids. HINT: It doesn’t happen by storks.

lifelong celibacy is not natural.

The natural debate requires some thinking and class when it comes to sexual matters. Some organisms eat their young, so technically that’s natural.

There are some that do not ever marry, but everyone should have the right to take one if they so choose or feel the need to.

Responsible spiritual direction should see that that avenue of life is dealt with appropriately. :yup:

That’s been recognized as a human right since the 1950’s.

If this comment is in reference to the American Loving v. Virginia case, don’t bother. That was about economics.

Marriage is not a Constitutional right, and I would advise caution when putting so many eggs in the American courts basket because they once recognized slavery as well.

Time to get with the program or…well, you can read the “or else” being played out right here

.

Typical liberal secularist attitude. The “or else” will happen if people are not orthodox or conservative enough.

 

[McCall1981]

You know just how?

Many rabid anti-Catholics seem to be ex-Catholics who are frustrated in not getting their way or getting doctrines changed to suit their personal or subjective wants.

Your posts propagate utter disdain and contempt for the Church and her leaders in this forum, with untrue or exaggerated claims.

The Pope Emeritus does not deserve the lie you have stated above. The fact is Pope Benedict XVI made it more difficult for active homosexual priests to enter the priesthood, thus getting directly to the source of the problem. Also, steps have been taken in every diocese to ensure that anyone who works for the Church must participate in a training program aimed at curtailing the abuse of minors.

Facts in direct refutation of other myths:

Myth: Children have been the main victims of priestly sexual abuse.

Fact: Since more than 95 percent of all the victims of priestly sexual abuse, as reported by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, are not prepubescent, that means that adolescents have been the primary victims.

Myth: Pedophile priests have been the problem.
Fact: Homosexual priests have been the problem. Proof: 81 percent of the victims have been male, and more than 95 percent have been postpubescent. When males have sex with postpubescent males, it is called homosexuality.

Myth: The problem is on-going.
Fact: The homosexual scandal took place mostly between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s. In the last ten years, the average number of credible accusations made against 40,000 priests is in the single digits.

Myth: The Church’s repressive teachings on sexuality are the problem.
Fact: It was liberals outside the Church who pushed for the sexual revolution, and it was liberals in the Church who abetted the revolution in the seminaries. Moreover, it was liberals who promoted therapy as the way to deal with molesters, instead of using punitive measures.
,

This is a great post