Positive Aspects of Atheism?

[HerCrazierHalf]

How is that freeing to you? It sounds like it leaves you in deep doubt and insecurity.

You know the excitement of doing something or visiting somewhere the first time? You have doubt but also exhilaration and liberation. A variation of that.

Is the absence of significant doubt required? Why not “idk but that’s ok”?

 

[Bradski]

But trying to save a man in danger does NOT ‘propagate the species’. In fact, quite often both people wind up losing their lives.

Reciprocal altruism. It encourages us to help others for a variety of reasons. Primarily being that if you help someone in trouble you can expect the same in return. If you don’t get help in return, then there is a tendency to treat that person as being not a member of your group. And not getting help from the group when these emotions developed, was a bad thing. You stood a good chance of being taken out of the gene pool. Leaving, not surprisingly, people who think it IS a good idea to help save someone in danger.

Again I ask you, what is so great about 'the propagation of the species?" If you don’t believe in God, then human beings are just a fairly sentient being on a 5th rate rock which over a period of time is going to wind up disappearing.

In the grand scheme of things? It doesn’t matter at all. But we act in some of the ways that we do only to pass out genes to the next generation. It’s a pretty short term system. Not many species spend a great deal of time trying to keep old and infertile members alive. Luck for us (we’re all going to get older eventually) we have gradually developed some compassion for our aged.

But don’t expect to see too much of the kids after you move into The Sunny Bank House for Senior Citizens.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You know the excitement of doing something or visiting somewhere the first time? You have doubt but also exhilaration and liberation. A variation of that.

Is the absence of significant doubt required? Why not “idk but that’s ok”?

Wouldn’t it be exhilarating to know you were made a very special person, co-heir to God, with a soul and a purpose?

Or is it more exhilarating to be a random bunch of atoms with no purpose at all?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Reciprocal altruism. It encourages us to help others for a variety of reasons. Primarily being that if you help someone in trouble you can expect the same in return. If you don’t get help in return, then there is a tendency to treat that person as being not a member of your group. And not getting help from the group when these emotions developed, was a bad thing. You stood a good chance of being taken out of the gene pool.** Leaving, not surprisingly, people who think it IS a good idea to help save someone in danger.
**

This is really funny. What Group are you talking about? Do you live in a Group of people who will take care of you in any circumstance? I find altruism is a very individualistic thing. You may not know the person at all who you give aid to. It has nothing to do with the Group you belong to. In true morality, you may not get anything out of it, but you know it is the RIGHT thing to do. There is a moral code you answer to. Namely God.

 

[Abba]

I don’t even have the foggiest idea what this “soul” might be. Give me a definition of it (metaphysics) and a method which would show me if this soul exists (epistemology). Without these all we have is an undefined question.

Try to recognize your own soul. You know you have toes and you figured this out all by your lonesome self long before you became an intellectual, right? Try to keep it real. When you stand in front of a mirror, you know it is you that you are seeing not your grandmother nor anyone else. It’s you. If all the great intellectuals told you it was someone else- you wouldn’t agree, right? It would be a little lunatic to agree it was not you or that your body was not yours and that yours is really that of a butterfly. So, keep it real. Identify your own soul. I think that if you identify your own soul it would be difficult after to disregard it as such. I think it would be as if to now say that your nose and eyes or your whole body is not yours.

For the coming 33 or 40 days, try to identify your own soul. You don’t have to find it via a theorem or some mathematical calculations. You may consider that if you do not establish it thru some debate or analysis that doesn’t exist, but, is that how you identified the existence of your own body? Find your soul and it’s perimeters by simply identifying just like you did your body.

Some people may have a better suggesting on how to do so, but for now, I would say; consider the soul as your “I.” Think of the “I” as being your soul and try to identify it. Not in a one hour debate on the internet, but, in time and internally. Identify the “I” that internal source that longs, desires, hopes, experiences compassion and love, that inner voice/you etc… that which animates the body. Try it for a while, three days, seven days, - as you wish. And when you have, I would say: that’s your soul. Now, personally, I think there is a distinction between soul and spirit but most think not. I think we have a soul and a spirit, but, before we can debate that, you need to identify your own soul.

Peace.

 

[Bradski]

This is really funny. What Group are you talking about? Do you live in a Group of people who will take care of you in any circumstance? I find altruism is a very individualistic thing. You may not know the person at all who you give aid to. It has nothing to do with the Group you belong to. In true morality, you may not get anything out of it, but you know it is the RIGHT thing to do. There is a moral code you answer to. Namely God.

I’ve covered this before. In the first instance, you can take the group as being a number of people that existed when we were hunter gatherers. A group that existed when we were very young as a species. A group that was small, containing very few people, most of whom were related and where everyone knew everyone else.

It is easier to live in such a group as opposed to living individually. You can share resources such as tools, skills, food, muscle power etc. This gives everyone in the group a better chance of survival than the individual. The sum is greater than its constituent parts.

Now if you were out gathering and returned to the group with food and no-one else had been successful, then there is a tendency to share it. That’s because you remember what happened when you returned hungry and someone shared his food with you. It doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to realise that if you share, then others probably will as well. Those who take and do not give may benefit in the short term, but it is not a policy that will put you in good stead in the long run (and bear in mind that we are still talking of a small group). You don’t need to know anything about game theory to realise this, but game theory shows that it works.

Those who buck the system in relatively small groups will find themselves as outcasts. And their survival prospects out of the group would be a lot less than those within the group and so there is a tendency for those who do not think it’s a good idea to share resources are removed from the gene pool. Leaving, not surprisingly, those who think it IS a good idea.

And as the groups coalesce and become tribes, this altruistic behaviour has been selected for across the board so that altruism becomes the norm. It still works – up to a point. Because the larger the tribes become, the easier it is to not play by the rules and still come out in front. It’s a lot easier to keep taking and not paying back if you live in an apartment in NY amongst a few hundred thousand people than if you live in a hut in the Rift Valley with a hundred.

But it’s still there. It still feels like the right thing to do. It works best within a small circle of companions and kin (the size of the original group) and becomes weaker as that circle increases in size. But it is still there.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Wouldn’t it be exhilarating to know you were made a very special person, co-heir to God, with a soul and a purpose?

Or is it more exhilarating to be a random bunch of atoms with no purpose at all?

Yes it would, but that has no effect on whether or not it is believable.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You took off on an intellectual journey but, you missed some things along the way and now you are lost. If you do not realize right now that you are lost, what can help you to recognize it is that itch you feel that you cannot scratch. Focus on that longing, that unidentifiable longing that’s deep inside of you and at times is stronger than others.

Sorry, I don’t have anything like that. No feeling of some “itch”, and no “longing”.

Don’t ignore it, try to identify it. Why? What does it mean? What is this? I pray someday, you come to know it as your little proof of God’s immense love for you. It’s God’s way of calling you. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in you” Saint Augustine.

Unfortunately that alleged “immense love” does not manifest itself in any way or shape that I can recognize as such.

Now, which is your preferred epistemological method or system? What requirements do you have to accept a metaphysical description of something? Do you prefer the universal to the particular? Are you a coherentist or a foundationalist or a little bit of both or it depends or something else? Do you have to see it to believe it (Aristotle Posterior Analytics & De Anima)? What works for you?

I would like to be treated as Doubting Thomas was treated (supposedly). Get together with God, sit down to a fireside chat, have a conversation, receive an explanation for all the horrible things in the world, why there is no benevolent intervention, etc… Or to see the fulfillment of the promise: “ask and you will be answered”, and “knock and the door will be opened”.

But I already can foresee the response (maybe not from you, but others): “How dare you, you insignificant, despicable creature DEMAND that God be your beck and call??!!”. Should the potter be called to answer the questions of the clay?" I knocked and the door remains closed. I asked and there was no answer.

I am not a spring chicken, and had many conversations with believers. They all boiled down to these kinds of responses. So let me tell you that I am somewhat disappointed, and have very little hope to get an honest conversation.

 

[Abba]

Sorry, I don’t have anything like that. No feeling of some “itch”, and no “longing”.

When it is unnourished it is so vague it is barely detectable. So, I understand. Maybe someday you will identify and think, aaah, this what Abba was talking about. It’s profound as it is. Well, put this on the back burner for now.

Unfortunately that alleged “immense love” does not manifest itself in any way or shape that I can recognize as such.

I did not mean for you to identify as such now in your condition and state. I mean, look at the situation as it is now, you are not even aware of the longing,however, vague; never mind come to recognize it as God calling you and in so doing recognizing the call as a sign that He never abandoned you and is calling you to have a personal relationship with Him.

I would like to be treated as Doubting Thomas was treated (supposedly). Get together with God, sit down to a fireside chat, have a conversation, receive an explanation for all the horrible things in the world, why there is no benevolent intervention, etc… Or to see the fulfillment of the promise: “ask and you will be answered”, and “knock and the door will be opened”.

I understand.

 

[Abba]

But I already can foresee the response (maybe not from you, but others): “How dare you, you insignificant, despicable creature DEMAND that God be your beck and call??!!”. Should the potter be called to answer the questions of the clay?" I knocked and the door remains closed. I asked and there was no answer.

“No answer” that you have recognized. Perhaps, there are doors that are being opened that will lead you to that door you want to be opened to you. We admire the order of the universe from the movement of the planets to the geometric design of some microscopic things. Well, in the spiritual realm there is order as well. You are not expecting chaos, right? I certainly cannot speak for God, He can do whatever He wants, when He wants it, But, there is order in the spiritual world and in the same way He crosses the laws of nature and those that He designed for the universe, such as when Jesus walked on water and all those events we consider as miracles; well, He can do the same in the spiritual world/realm (whatever you want to call it). So, I cannot tell you that you need to mature spiritually at the minimum to x point to achieve some kind of certainty of His existence because, in truth, He can do whatever He wants and He knows when He will do whatever He will do. He is all knowing and knows best.

I went thru a similar experience as you have been experiencing and looking back, I see spiritual dry states as times when I earned some stars. Just don’t have a temper tantrum and walk away or give up. I understand for a long time, Mother Teresa was spiritually dry and did not have the consolation of sensing or experiencing that relationship with Jesus. It is very bothersome once you are used to it, but, she kept strong and kept going.

The way I have come to understand it is that God has set some spiritual stuff in motion and we need to overcome it and thru this process we are sanctified. The angels had to go thru a similar process. The angels were all sweet until they were tested. It was thru that test that they were sanctified.

You want to see the king. I can tell you that humility is up there - you need to take your sandals off. Keep in mind now, you want to see the being who created the sun and designed the wings of the butterflies. Maybe, seeing Him will not be in your best interest right now ( that is - not good for your eternal salvation) and He who is all-knowing knows this. Why don’t you aim for having a spiritual relationship with Him? He wants you to follow the commandments and to love your neighbors as yourself. Confession is way up there too.

Well, let’s put the potter aside. Have they quoted:“Yea, have ye never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings Thou hast perfected praise’?” You don’t have to be a genius, beautiful, rich, powerful, etc… to have a relationship with the King of Kings.

There appears to me to be more than just what meets the eyes, sort of speak, in your non-believing situation. The obstacle does not seem to be merely an intellectual one. There seem to be some things that you do not want to give up to go and meet Him. Pride and self-love seem to be holding you back a little - not just that He has not appeared to you and sat down to have a chat with you. Obedience is a problem - it means giving up some of your independence and power - but, don’t expect too much understanding - remember He was obedient unto death on a cross. You also seem to have a problem with the priests. I don’t know if you are angry because this is all very frustrating or where the anger is coming from?

You need to understand that He is not your equal. You want Him to knock at your door and give you a proper explanation for those things that you do not quite understand. Could this arrogance be what is keeping you at a distance? You know the prodigal son, had no pride. He went back home and gave up the pigsty. Keep in mind you want to see a real being not a figment of your imagination.

One way I found God had been present in my life was on looking back. And, also, in reading scripture. I read the bible for years not realizing it is the living word of God and it had been nourishing my soul all along.

I am not a spring chicken, and had many conversations with believers. They all boiled down to these kinds of responses. So let me tell you that I am somewhat disappointed, and have very little hope to get an honest conversation.

Were you raised Catholic?

I’m off to sleep. I am not editing. I hope you can understand. If not just ask.

 

[inocente]

Exactly the argument made by the Marquis de Sade to justify his lunatic immorality.

De Sade seems to have spent much of his life in a mental hospital. This was after his mother gave him away, at age four, to an abbot who kept a mother-daughter team of mistresses. Then at ten he was sent to a Jesuit school where systematic whipping was administered. I know little about him but it wouldn’t exactly be surprising that if everything in a child’s life is insane, perverted and cruel, he’ll grow up to be insane, perverted and cruel. Was that your point?

 

[inocente]

Ah but there you are wrong, Mr. Materialist (I assume you do believe in Evolution). Evolutionists believe that there is a link from Species to Species, though there is no evidence of it. So in the evolutionist’s mind a pig may well become a racehorse or vice versa.

So in your view all the Catholics who found the evidence in DNA are delusional materialists?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

De Sade seems to have spent much of his life in a mental hospital. This was after his mother gave him away, at age four, to an abbot who kept a mother-daughter team of mistresses. Then at ten he was sent to a Jesuit school where systematic whipping was administered. I know little about him but it wouldn’t exactly be surprising that if everything in a child’s life is insane, perverted and cruel, he’ll grow up to be insane, perverted and cruel. Was that your point?

Anti-Catholic bigotry could be answered with anti-Baptist bigotry, but I’ll forego the pleasure.

Please do not address me again in this forum.

 

[inocente]

Anti-Catholic bigotry could be answered with anti-Baptist bigotry, but I’ll forego the pleasure.

Please do not address me again in this forum.

Strange response. I’ve told you many times I live in a Catholic country by choice, and don’t care for sectarian squabbling.

If you think I’m a bigot then please report me to the moderator or send me a PM, but please don’t keep on making these personal attacks. It’s a bit rich to ask me not to address you when just a few days ago I happened to notice you made up an allegation about me in a post to someone else on a thread where I’d not even posted for several days (posts here and here).

I don’t remember what got you upset originally but apologize if I stepped over a line. Hatchet buried?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’ve covered this before. In the first instance, you can take the group as being a number of people that existed when we were hunter gatherers. A group that existed when we were very young as a species. A group that was small, containing very few people, most of whom were related and where everyone knew everyone else.

It is easier to live in such a group as opposed to living individually. You can share resources such as tools, skills, food, muscle power etc. This gives everyone in the group a better chance of survival than the individual. The sum is greater than its constituent parts.

Now if you were out gathering and returned to the group with food and no-one else had been successful, then there is a tendency to share it. That’s because you remember what happened when you returned hungry and someone shared his food with you. It doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to realise that if you share, then others probably will as well. Those who take and do not give may benefit in the short term, but it is not a policy that will put you in good stead in the long run (and bear in mind that we are still talking of a small group). You don’t need to know anything about game theory to realise this, but game theory shows that it works.

Those who buck the system in relatively small groups will find themselves as outcasts. And their survival prospects out of the group would be a lot less than those within the group and so there is a tendency for those who do not think it’s a good idea to share resources are removed from the gene pool. Leaving, not surprisingly, those who think it IS a good idea.

And as the groups coalesce and become tribes, this altruistic behaviour has been selected for across the board so that altruism becomes the norm. It still works – up to a point. Because the larger the tribes become, the easier it is to not play by the rules and still come out in front. It’s a lot easier to keep taking and not paying back if you live in an apartment in NY amongst a few hundred thousand people than if you live in a hut in the Rift Valley with a hundred.

But it’s still there. It still feels like the right thing to do. It works best within a small circle of companions and kin (the size of the original group) and becomes weaker as that circle increases in size. But it is still there.

But evolution is a random system in which survival of the fittest is the key. The system you describe has purpose and is answering to a high moral code. I think you have things a little mixed up.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So in your view all the Catholics who found the evidence in DNA are delusional materialists?

When did I say that? I said there is no evidence for species to species evolution. If you believe in that you are definitely stretching the evidence to the Nth degree.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

De Sade seems to have spent much of his life in a mental hospital. This was after his mother gave him away, at age four, to an abbot who kept a mother-daughter team of mistresses. Then at ten he was sent to a Jesuit school where systematic whipping was administered. I know little about him but it wouldn’t exactly be surprising that if everything in a child’s life is insane, perverted and cruel, he’ll grow up to be insane, perverted and cruel. Was that your point?

In my opinion De Sade was bad to the bone. I wouldn’t try to explain him through his “troubled childhood”. He had gone willingly over to the dark side and was trying to convince people to follow him.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Well, in the spiritual realm there is order as well.

Sorry, the word you use: “spiritual” has no meaning for me.

I don’t know if you are angry because this is all very
frustrating or where the anger is coming from?

Please stop the psychoanalysis. (Or as it was spelled in Ender’s Game: “Sickoanalysis”) It does not lead anywhere, especially not on an internet forum.

Were you raised Catholic?

Nope, I was raised Calvinist.

I did not mean for you to identify as such now in your condition and state. I mean, look at the situation as it is now, you are not even aware of the longing,however, vague; never mind come to recognize it as God calling you and in so doing recognizing the call as a sign that He never abandoned you and is calling you to have a personal relationship with Him.

The solution is simple. God could stop this hide-and-seek game, and come clean. I was asking for it and I still am.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’ve covered this before. In the first instance, you can take the group as being a number of people that existed when we were hunter gatherers. A group that existed when we were very young as a species. A group that was small, containing very few people, most of whom were related and where everyone knew everyone else.

It is easier to live in such a group as opposed to living individually. You can share resources such as tools, skills, food, muscle power etc. This gives everyone in the group a better chance of survival than the individual. The sum is greater than its constituent parts.

Now if you were out gathering and returned to the group with food and no-one else had been successful, then there is a tendency to share it. That’s because you remember what happened when you returned hungry and someone shared his food with you. It doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to realise that if you share, then others probably will as well. Those who take and do not give may benefit in the short term, but it is not a policy that will put you in good stead in the long run (and bear in mind that we are still talking of a small group). You don’t need to know anything about game theory to realise this, but game theory shows that it works.

Those who buck the system in relatively small groups will find themselves as outcasts. And their survival prospects out of the group would be a lot less than those within the group and so there is a tendency for those who do not think it’s a good idea to share resources are removed from the gene pool. Leaving, not surprisingly, those who think it IS a good idea.

And as the groups coalesce and become tribes, this altruistic behaviour has been selected for across the board so that altruism becomes the norm. It still works – up to a point. Because the larger the tribes become, the easier it is to not play by the rules and still come out in front. It’s a lot easier to keep taking and not paying back if you live in an apartment in NY amongst a few hundred thousand people than if you live in a hut in the Rift Valley with a hundred.

But it’s still there. It still feels like the right thing to do. It works best within a small circle of companions and kin (the size of the original group) and becomes weaker as that circle increases in size. But it is still there.

Meethinks you are talking about Social Darwinism where one person sacrifices for the good of the State. Hitler used this system. True altruism has nothing to do with the good of the Group, rather it is usually for the good of a rather useless member of the group: a dying person, and old or feeble person, a person in peril… etc…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sorry, the word you use: “spiritual” has no meaning for me.

Please stop the psychoanalysis. (Or as it was spelled in Ender’s Game: “Sickoanalysis”) It does not lead anywhere, especially not on an internet forum.

Nope, I was raised Calvinist.

The solution is simple. God could stop this hide-and-seek game, and come clean. I was asking for it and I still am.

You sound like a spoiled child…