Possible Abuses, Please Help Discern

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I just converted to the Catholic Church about 1.5 years ago at age 49, I had started looking at the Church as a teenager, exploring the early Church Fathers, etc. I attended a few Catholic churches over the years and didn’t seem to find the same Catholicism that I had been reading about from history, confused for many years, left church completely, basically came back searching and found the Tridentine Mass existed, there I found what the Saints over the past two thousand years had experienced. Deo gratias!
I just might be getting pushed by God into the Tridentine Mass, because I just can’t handle all the variation available in the Novus Ordo. It’s like you have to keep 14 Eucharistic prayers in your head, several different options for the Rite of Penance, tons of options for psalms, memorize priest and people’s proper gestures, remember that basically half the mass can be cut out during weekdays (but might not be too), and God knows what else (literally, no vanity - oh, church law too) so I’m not surprised no one seems to pipe up when something gets finagled up. Then there’s how the Vatican prefers kneeling at the Eucharist, the USCCB practically demands standing, and the bishops change motions and such for their diocese. 🤷

I went to another church today and he used a different Eucharistic Prayer, plus no music at all, omitted the Creed, used the short form of the Penitential Rite, and emptied the holy water fount for Easter (unless the member I spoke with got it wrong, I hope he did). I’m obviously keeping up to the best of my abilities right now to be able to spot the abuses I have, but good grief! I really don’t feel like reporting every other church I visit! :juggle:|

… I hate how, when the rubrics allow for variation, the parishes seem to always choose the shortest readings and omit any sort of embellishment (can I get some water on me and some incense up my nose please?) Give them an inch…
 
I’m new to the church but I’m already catching on fast to some things that have gone wrong, namely in my first parish. But I want to run these things by you all to see if I’m right.
  • The deacon mentioned the universal priesthood and said people can bless things while mentioning that most people just have the priest bless rosaries because of his “authority”.
  • The priests have us raise our hands over candidates as a congregation in a priestly gesture to bless the candidates with them.
Can. 1166 Sacramentals are sacred signs by which effects, especially spiritual effects, are signified in some imitation of the sacraments and are obtained through the intercession of the Church.
Can. 1167 §1. The Apostolic See alone can establish new sacramentals, authentically interpret those already received, or abolish or change any of them.
§2. In confecting or administering sacramentals, the rites and formulas approved by the authority of the Church are to be observed carefully.
Can. 1168 The minister of sacramentals is a cleric who has been provided with the requisite power. According to the norm of the liturgical books and to the judgment of the local ordinary lay persons who possess the appropriate qualities can also administer some sacramentals.
Can. 1169 §1. Those marked with the episcopal character and presbyters permitted by law or legitimate grant can perform consecrations and dedications validly.
§2. Any presbyter can impart blessings except those reserved to the Roman Pontiff or bishops.
§3. A deacon can impart only those blessings expressly permitted by law.

Can. 1170 Blessings, which are to be imparted first of all to Catholics, can also be given to catechumens and even to non-Catholics unless there is a prohibition of the Church to the contrary.
Blessings are considered a sacramental. You will note in Can 1169 that bishops, priests, and deacons are specifically mentioned, but the laity are conspicuously absent. There is a reason for this: laity have no spiritual authority over each other.

Father Hardon defined a blessing as follows: In liturgical language a blessing is a ritual ceremony by which an authorized cleric in major orders sanctifies persons or things to divine service, or invokes divine favor on what he blesses.

This is not to say that a lay person may not wish God to pour His blessings upon another, but a lay person has no authority to confer that blessing.

Having said that, Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy) says the following:
79. The sacramentals are to undergo a revision which takes into account the primary principle of enabling the faithful to participate intelligently, actively, and easily; the circumstances of our own days must also be considered. When rituals are revised, as laid down in Art. 63, new sacramentals may also be added as the need for these becomes apparent.
Reserved blessings shall be very few; reservations shall be in favor of bishops or ordinaries.
Let provision be made that some sacramentals, at least in special circumstances and at the discretion of the ordinary, may be administered by qualified lay persons.
So the point is that I would want to look at the Book of Blessings to see who is authorized to give a certain blessing in certain circumstances before calling it an abuse. It is, in all likelihood, an abuse, but I would want to know that on a 100% basis before making an accusation.
  • He also tempered my orthodoxy and said that Sola Scriptura is right for Protestants because it’s their tradition, that “it works for them” after I enumerated the doctrinal reasons for leaving Protestantism. I can’t reproduce exact phrasing and context, but it was clear he was leaning on some form of relativism.
Yes, as others have said, Sola Scriptura is a heresy. Since you are new in the faith, the best thing I can suggest is to continue learning before making any kind of complaint along those lines.
  • He also tries to get me to work with the Lutheran pastor who baptized me and has told me that I’m safe from going to Hell now that I’m baptized.
Trinitarian baptisms are perfectly valid.
  • The priest said that penance wasn’t a punishment to make up for sins, but that it was only a way to help me be a better Christian. It’s actually both though.
That statement, as reported, is not really 100% wrong. Mostly wrong, but not 100%. Penance is canonically known as “satisfaction” and is an integral part of the sacrament. Suggest you read CCC 1459 and 1460 for more on “satisfaction.”

I think the other complaints have all been addressed.

If there is another, more orthodox parish in your local area, you may wish to start participating there. But otherwise, you really need to study – move beyond the “neophyte” stage – if you wish to suggest corrections.
 
WoundedIcon;7855148 and emptied the holy water fount for Easter (unless the member I spoke with got it wrong, I hope he did).
Holy water fonts are emptied from the Mass of the Lord’s Supper until they are refilled with water blessed at the Easter Vigil. Nothing else that you mentioned is an abuse unless it was a Sunday Mass, in which case he should not have omitted the Creed.

Why do I get the impression that you think that attending Mass is actually a spot-the-‘abuse’ exercise, where ‘abuse’ = anything that seems ‘different’ to the last time you were at Mass ?
 
Holy water fonts are emptied from the Mass of the Lord’s Supper until they are refilled with water blessed at the Easter Vigil. Nothing else that you mentioned is an abuse unless it was a Sunday Mass, in which case he should not have omitted the Creed.
No, I mean I went to a service there today and the holy water dispenser was empty and someone told me that it would stay empty till the end of Easter season, and I already know that the rest of the things weren’t abuses. In the context I was just discussing how variable the Novus Ordo Mass can be because someone else brought up the Tridentine Mass.
 
No, I mean I went to a service there today and the holy water dispenser was empty and someone told me that it would stay empty till the end of Easter season, and I already know that the rest of the things weren’t abuses. In the context I was just discussing how variable the Novus Ordo Mass can be because someone else brought up the Tridentine Mass.
So,the Ordinary Form has variables, what of it?
 
I went to another church today and he used a different Eucharistic Prayer, plus no music at all, omitted the Creed, used the short form of the Penitential Rite…
Dear friend, this is a normal weekday Mass. In the Extraordinary Form, you will get a short Mass on weekdays and an hour-long Mass on Sundays too.
 
I already agreed that I was wrong concerning what I said about penance and wrote a correction more along the lines of orthodoxy. And my complaint wasn’t about the validity of trinitarian baptisms, it was about how he doesn’t accept that I’ve settled in Catholicism, despite my statements to the contrary, and the Protestant character of a statement the deacon made about being safe from Hell due to being baptized, even though if I commit a mortal sin and die unrepentant I won’t be. I can quote his statement from an email if you need to see context, but I’d much rather not unless necessary because I don’t want to blab too much out into the open. It’s just that he seems to not consider me very “Catholicky” because I don’t practice like the rest of the parish does, so he keeps gently pressing for me to change or something. I’m just more traditional and masculine, this parish is more… communal and motherly? I already emailed him and tried to tell him a few of my issues, as relevant to the conversation we were having at the time (I had called him and told him that I don’t feel at home with the “heart” of their parish, and that I was looking elsewhere: so he wouldn’t wonder where I went if I didn’t show up for RCIA.)

Please read everything that’s been written in this thread guys, and notice the context, because a couple of you seem to want to accuse me (or actually have) of immaturity, rebellion, obstinacy, a critical spirit, and being “more Catholic than the Pope”. Why should an effort to maintain rules and orthodoxy be met with insult?

Markomalley, that’s not so about you than a small amount of others on this thread. Thank you for the references, I was looking for them while writing my letter to the priest but I couldn’t find them.
 
Dear friend, this is a normal weekday Mass. In the Extraordinary Form, you will get a short Mass on weekdays and an hour-long Mass on Sundays too.
I know that. I was just talking about the variations available in the OF because of what someone else said about the EF. I know about the Low Mass too.
 
WoundedIcon;7855329 Why should an effort to maintain rules and orthodoxy be met with insult?
Because you’re not trying to maintain rules and orthodoxy - that isn’t up to you, anyway - you’re on some kind of witch hunt to find ‘abuse’ where none exists. Perhaps if you learned a bit more and jumped to conclusions a bit less, you would not be so irksome.
 
Because you’re not trying to maintain rules and orthodoxy - that isn’t up to you, anyway - you’re on some kind of witch hunt to find ‘abuse’ where none exists. Perhaps if you learned a bit more and jumped to conclusions a bit less, you would not be so irksome.
Redemptionis Sacramentum 183-184

*"In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity."*

I’m not on a witch hunt, which is one of those insults I was talking about, and I am not attacking or denigrating anyone *ad hominem * at my parish. As others have agreed with me, after discussion of the issues, on most points of concern I have brought up I feel it is right to go ahead and charitably make a statement to my priest about my concerns. I have the Church’s documents and laws themselves to make reference to in order to back up my concerns. Although, it seems that according to the document I am not required to speak to the priest. I’d much rather be anonymous, but I’ll pray about it.

Honestly, you are not reading my posts carefully enough, and out of context at that: you’re misunderstanding my intentions, but clinging to the misunderstandings. Yes, I did sound like I accused the last church I went to of abuses, but I figured that people would be able to pick out the little I would have to be concerned about after I had laid out what I know is proper in the paragraph above it.
 
Let me preface my brief comment by saying you’d be hard pressed to find a more conservative and orthodox Catholic than myself – but then aren’t all Catholics who simply follow the rules and Magisterium, with charity and love, orthodox causa sui? NB - this is not to fall into the fairly radical traditionalist paradigm, however.

Why do all who complain of ‘Liturgical Abuse’ run home straightaway, log on, and start cracking down on their parish? This phenomena has been noted several times by folks more intelligent than myself before. Why don’t you simply speak to your pastor with charity and love in your heart? You might find yourself growing spiritually! Moreover, he would probably be delighted to answer your questions and allay your concerns.

“Being pushed by God into the Traditional Latin Mass (Extraordinary Form Mass) b/c of variations?” The EF form of the Mass is a beautiful way of worshipping Our Lord, it is not some righteous alternative to the wicked variations of the OF! They are both spiritually valid, both holy, and both licit.

I was speaking to my Godfather the other day about the CAF (and btw I have seen real ‘Liturgical Abuse’, there was a case of it where I live not too long ago, it is all in all --thankfully – very rare, and our moderate bishop stepped in the next day and nipped it in the bud) and the extreme, almost bellicose, jingoism of the Litstapo hereabouts. It is extremely disheartening to see a neophyte, recently welcomed to the joy and communion of Holy Mother Church, making such harsh observations when they should be rejoicing!

God bless you wounded – instead of calling down the Litstapo continually, pray, and speak to your priest! You’ll be glad you did!
 
And regarding meditative exercises during your retreat, Wounded, have you ever studied Ignatian spirituality? It can be a very beautiful and holy thing.
 
Let me preface my brief comment by saying you’d be hard pressed to find a more conservative and orthodox Catholic than myself – but then aren’t all Catholics who simply follow the rules and Magisterium, with charity and love, orthodox causa sui? NB - this is not to fall into the fairly radical traditionalist paradigm, however.

Why do all who complain of ‘Liturgical Abuse’ run home straightaway, log on, and start cracking down on their parish? This phenomena has been noted several times by folks more intelligent than myself before. Why don’t you simply speak to your pastor with charity and love in your heart? You might find yourself growing spiritually! Moreover, he would probably be delighted to answer your questions and allay your concerns.

“Being pushed by God into the Traditional Latin Mass (Extraordinary Form Mass) b/c of variations?” The EF form of the Mass is a beautiful way of worshipping Our Lord, it is not some righteous alternative to the wicked variations of the OF! They are both spiritually valid, both holy, and both licit.

I was speaking to my Godfather the other day about the CAF (and btw I have seen real ‘Liturgical Abuse’, there was a case of it where I live not too long ago, it is all in all --thankfully – very rare, and our moderate bishop stepped in the next day and nipped it in the bud) and the extreme, almost bellicose, jingoism of the Litstapo hereabouts. It is extremely disheartening to see a neophyte, recently welcomed to the joy and communion of Holy Mother Church, making such harsh observations when they should be rejoicing!

God bless you wounded – instead of calling down the Litstapo continually, pray, and speak to your priest! You’ll be glad you did!
I’m afraid to do that, ultimately, so I came on here so I could get some advice. I did call down the litstapo (LOL) on another thread here, but I feel like an *** for it now. I was very emotional at that time. I already know that I stick out like a sore thumb in this parish, and I also know from talking to them that the deacon and priest would think I’m over-thinking things. I love them as people - funny, nice - but in a religious context since my gears upstairs don’t grind the same way as theirs they tend to discourage me. It’s a larger problem than just a few liturgical issues in that parish. It’s… very “Spirit of Vatican II-y”. I would just wither up if I did things their way. They come across as very feelings-oriented and sometimes anti-intellectual. People keep bugging me about how “I’ve got it all up in head but I need it in my heart”. I don’t have it all up in my head sealed off from my heart, it’s both. It’s my hobby. My lifestyle, my culture in a way. Heck, when I want to entertain myself I listen to hymns and study! I’ve been a Protestant for five years, and it’s like… since I’m young I get treated like a newbie to religion. But if I’m that much of a n00b (leet-speak lol) then why am I spotting their doctrinal and liturgical errors? I just can’t grow there. It’s too much. I hate having to deal with this kind of turmoil in the first parish I’ve ever been in. I try to see the big picture that external things point to, the context and spirit of everything here, and I don’t like it. I need acceptance and edification, not people treating me like a fourteen year old and discouraging the special talents and outlook I bring to the table. 😦
 
And regarding meditative exercises during your retreat, Wounded, have you ever studied Ignatian spirituality? It can be a very beautiful and holy thing.
I’ll look that up after I deal with some other lesser things. Thanks.
 
Maybe the simplest way to put it is that they’re left-of-center and I’m right-of-center, so there’s friction.
 
I remembered something else, they were playing pretty background music during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Ugh…
 
God bless you Wounded – you are starting down the rich and beautiful road of our Holy Church, and on this road you SHALL find fulfillment and abundant joy. Don’t let the devil turn you away from growing in the Spirit so easily, please.

I am a convert too (thanks be to God!), and had issues similar to you when I first began practicing…mostly because a few drastic types (and I will use that word, though I love them one and all) had put it into my head that ‘Liturgical Abuse’ was rampant! And much else, besides. When I finally grew in prayer and faith I saw that, mostly, these people had a very skewed view (for many disparate reasons) of Holy Mother Church, and have since learned to follow among others the signs of love God gave me, the rock-solid authority of the Magisterium, and our incredible, joyous priests to find the Truth.

Do not, I beg you, start building your spiritual paradigms around the comments and rhetoric of the Litstapo. Talk to your pastor, priests and deacons with an open heart and an open mind: I guarantee you 100% they will be waiting with open arms to help you, to assure you, to guide you, and to allay your fears. There are, as others have pointed out, serious differences between liturgical variations and abuses (and, again, from my experience, true abuse is clamped down on at once by all our holy bishops, whether they are so-called liberals, moderates, or conservatives – they’re all orthodox from what these eyes have seen—for example, the one instance I know of a quasi-heretical bishop was the fellow in Australia who was just sacked by the Holy Father) and it may take time and prayer to truly discern those differences. But talk to them! They are not looking to judge you, but help you grow.

And in time, with prayer, maybe one day you can join the Liturgy Committee of your parish and so help it grow closer to Our Lord and our Holy Church. God bless and keep you!
 
I’m not on a witch hunt, which is one of those insults I was talking about, and I am not attacking or denigrating anyone
Honestly, you are not reading my posts carefully enough, and out of context at that: you’re misunderstanding my intentions, but clinging to the misunderstandings. Yes, I did sound like I accused the last church I went to of abuses, but I figured that people would be able to pick out the little I would have to be concerned about after I had laid out what I know is proper in the paragraph above it.
When you start a thread entitled Possible Abuses, Please Help Discern; then admit that you are a ‘new’ Catholic; then give a list of ‘possible abuses’ that should be clear to anyone (who has taken the time to study and learn) are NOT abuses, and then go on to whine about variables in the Ordinary Form, you shouldn’t be surprised if readers get the impression that you are either clueless or on a witch hunt. If you need ‘help’ to ‘discern’ whether or not something is an ‘abuse’, you are ill-equipped in the ‘truth’ department to be lodging complaints with a bishop.
 
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