Possible Abuses, Please Help Discern

[MarkThompson]

Another problem… the whole congregation engages in the orans posture during the Our Father. :banghead:

And since it’s a confusion of priest and people’s gestures, it’s considered grave.

This has been covered ad infinitum here, but spontaneously-adopted postures of this sort have never been condemned or prohibited by the Vatican. It is certainly not “grave”; I’m not sure where you got that idea.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I don’t think I should listen to some of you anymore. When the faithful say one thing is right and try to hammer it into someone like it’s dogma (even becoming ridiculously hostile at times), especially right after that person has read Church Documents and orthodox sources claiming it as wrong, who should I listen to at that moment?

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Maybe it’s not grave, but it is a mistake. A mistake made intentionally over and over again. I’m sorry if being the guy to defend rules makes me look like the bad cop in the family…

 

[WoundedIcon]

Could I get somebody to lock this thread? I’m sick of this. People who agreed with me provided sources, others who disagreed with me (not all who did mind you) vehemently harassed me and only had insults, and petulance, and poorly thought out defenses based on miseducation and sentimental feelings. I’m done.

 

[markomalley]

Another problem… the whole congregation engages in the orans posture during the Our Father. :banghead:

And since it’s a confusion of priest and people’s gestures, it’s considered grave.

Actually, Cardinal Arinze (retired prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments) made an interesting observation on this.

If memory serves:

The Roman Missal does not direct the hand position of the lay faithful during the Our Father. So it would be inappropriate to direct them to use the Orans (or to hold hands or whatever) during the Our Father, one way or the other. In other words, if you want to hold hands, hold hands. If you want to have your hands Oran, go ahead. Or if you want your hands at your sides, by all means. But nobody should FORCE you to hold hands, put your hands in the Orans position, or any other position.

If there is controversy, I can look up the reference, but the above was the essence of what he said. And I can’t find anything to counter that position.

 

[markomalley]

Could I get somebody to lock this thread? I’m sick of this. People who agreed with me provided sources, others who disagreed with me (not all who did mind you) vehemently harassed me and only had insults, and petulance, and poorly thought out defenses based on miseducation and sentimental feelings. I’m done.

You can go to “thread tools” and unsubscribe from the thread…then just pretend it never existed in the first place…

 

[waterbender]

none of what you posted is abuse.

Please have peace and stop nitpicking.

If you are paranoid about worshipping, then it will be hard for you to enjoy worshipping. Perhaps studing the Catachisim on your own will help you?

You seem to post allot of complaints on this forum. Why are you so doubtful of your parish pastor and deacons? You do realize that it is much easier to worship in the Church now than it ever has been? There have been 4 Popes in recent history who have made communion restrictions for Catholics easier, and at least a dozxen that have made entry into the Church easier. Jesus had a parable about how at the “end of the work day” some workers earned the same wage as those who were hired at the beginning of the work day.

If you feel like you are getting gypted for not having to do as much today as previous Catholics have had to, fine. Feel free to feel that way and please stop griping to others about it. I am happy that the Catholic Church is still defending the Truth, yet making it easier for converts and Catholics alike to participate fully.

 

[WoundedIcon]

But it doesn’t make much sense to have everyone doing something different during a communal prayer. Throws off the symbolism. I personally like doing the orans, but if it’s wrong I will never do it again. I can’t give approval to these little domino-like changes by my actions, and I’ve noticed in my own heart that the orans really does create too much of an overlap between priest and clergy. It gives us the feel that we’re doing what he does with him. Not right IMHO. I mean, yes technically we can do it as a personal action while others choose different postures if we read the rubrics as permitting what they don’t forbid. But that would be a mess.

 

[MarkThompson]

I don’t think I should listen to some of you anymore. When the faithful say one thing is right and try to hammer it into someone like it’s dogma (even becoming ridiculously hostile at times), especially right after that person has read Church Documents and orthodox sources claiming it as wrong, who should I listen to at that moment?

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Maybe it’s not grave, but it is a mistake. A mistake made intentionally over and over again. I’m sorry if being the guy to defend rules makes me look like the bad cop in the family…

There is no rule on this to defend. Colin Donovan’s argument amounts to saying that the orans position for the laity is not really in keeping with the overall structure of the laity’s function within the liturgy. I happen to agree, I don’t think it is either. But that is a liturgical opinion drawn from abstract principles, not a rule.

It’s like arguing against a certain song (whatever one’s favorite is to hate on, like Gather Us In or Amazing Grace) by saying “There is a rule against this song.” Well, no, there isn’t. It might be inappropriate based on some people’s interpretations of general standards that have been laid down, but referring to “the rule against singing Amazing Grace at Mass” would clearly be based on a misunderstanding. The same applies to trying to talk about “the rule against the orans posture.” When Rome says “the laity are forbidden to use the orans posture during the Our Father” – and don’t think they haven’t repeatedly been asked to make just such a pronouncement – then we will indeed have something to call a rule.

 

[Spirithound]

Another problem… the whole congregation engages in the orans posture during the Our Father. :banghead:

And since it’s a confusion of priest and people’s gestures, it’s considered grave.

Definitely not worth reporting to the bishop. Talk to the priest about it. You are under no obligation to adopt this posture.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Could I get somebody to lock this thread? I’m sick of this. People who agreed with me provided sources, others who disagreed with me (not all who did mind you) vehemently harassed me and only had insults, and petulance, and poorly thought out defenses based on miseducation and sentimental feelings. I’m done.

Petulance?

“O wad some Pow’r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us”

 

[WoundedIcon]

I apologize for my last few posts, my patience started to buckle a bit. I suppose these things aren’t abuses, but I got defensive after a bit of trouble and started lashing out.

But since these aren’t abuses it kind of absolves me of having to talk to them. I just want to fit in at the parish I settle in and feel like I have some kind of… um, influence? I’m not sure if that’s the right word, maybe it’s more that I want my strengths and perspective acknowledged more. I know I’m early in the process, but I don’t feel respected there. I see some of the issues I’ve been having as signs that I would only be in for a headache if I settled in there. I’d either have to keep myself out of parish life or take part while pretending to be different than I am. I suppose what I’ve been trying to say all along - in simplified form - is that I’m not their type and want more reverence without jumping all the way to the EF. I’m just scared that I won’t find a home, a place where I can fit in, chip in, and soak the prayer of the mass in. The music alone at my current parish makes me distracted from the more sacrificial and mystical aspects that I crave. I know that I’m kind of trying to run from any culture that resembles the Protestant subculture though. I want to be around Catholic distinctives more. I don’t want to wind up hopping around until my batteries just run out.

Energize me Jesus!

 

[nickybr38]

Like I said earlier, I totally hear you… but I’d urge you to stop thinking quite so much. I know! What a horrible thing to say… but here’s the thing. Perhaps God DOES want you there for a bit. Perhaps He’d like you to learn how to be with those who ‘aren’t on your level’. Not to teach THEM but to teach YOU.

Above all else we are supposed to love God and ONE ANOTHER. No matter if the person beside you seems more or less reverent we are to love that person just as much as we love ourselves anyway.

This is what I’ve been learning and let me tell you it’s a truly humbling experience.

I just think you’re overthinking the situation a wee bit too much. If you search for a Mass that fits you perfectly you’ll be searching a long, long time I think. Just sit tight for a bit and see if there’s something there God is trying to teach you through these people that maybe you’re missing because you’re uncomfortable?

That would be my advice.

 

[paperwight66]

Like I said earlier, I totally hear you… but I’d urge you to stop thinking quite so much. I know! What a horrible thing to say… but here’s the thing. Perhaps God DOES want you there for a bit. Perhaps He’d like you to learn how to be with those who ‘aren’t on your level’. Not to teach THEM but to teach YOU.

Above all else we are supposed to love God and ONE ANOTHER. No matter if the person beside you seems more or less reverent we are to love that person just as much as we love ourselves anyway.

This is what I’ve been learning and let me tell you it’s a truly humbling experience.

I just think you’re overthinking the situation a wee bit too much. If you search for a Mass that fits you perfectly you’ll be searching a long, long time I think. Just sit tight for a bit and see if there’s something there God is trying to teach you through these people that maybe you’re missing because you’re uncomfortable?

That would be my advice.

That’s really good advice. Bloom where you’re planted.

I know when a certain member of our parish clergy gets up to preach that his homily is not going to be the most thoughtful in the world, and I used to groan to myself, anticipating boredom and irritation.

But then I started to pray each time, ‘Lord, please show me something meaningful to me in this homily’, and it usually works.

 

[waterbender]

I apologize for my last few posts, my patience started to buckle a bit. I suppose these things aren’t abuses, but I got defensive after a bit of trouble and started lashing out.

I know that I’m kind of trying to run from any culture that resembles the Protestant subculture though.

But since these aren’t abuses it kind of absolves me of having to talk to them. I just want to fit in at the parish I settle in and feel like I have some kind of… um, influence?Energize me Jesus!

If that’s the case, then please do the following:

1> Stop complaining
2> become a Catholic - in your case Orthodox would be best
3> practice humility and service instead of nitpicking.

 

[TheMc]

none of what you posted is abuse.

Please have peace and stop nitpicking.

I’m sorry, but you’re mistaken. Not everything is, but many of these things certainly are. I’ll provide document quotes too, if I can find them.

• He also tempered my orthodoxy and said that Sola Scriptura is right for Protestants because it’s their tradition, that “it works for them” after I enumerated the doctrinal reasons for leaving Protestantism. I can’t reproduce exact phrasing and context, but it was clear he was leaning on some form of relativism.

This is soooo wrong.** Sola Scriptura isn’t right,** and to hear a priest saying it is is sickening (2 Thess 2:15, BASIC CATHOLIC DOCTRINE)

• He also tries to get me to work with the Lutheran pastor who baptized me and has told me that I’m safe from going to Hell now that I’m baptized.

The priest told you that you were safe from Hell? Wow. This guy is toeing the line for heresy.

• Although not necessarily always an abuse, the music is basically jazzy-pop OCA fare.

People hate me when I say this, but using this style of music is wrong, and should not be played in the Mass. (De Musica Sacra, 60,61, 68, Musicam Sacram, 43, 63, Many other documents)

Sometimes they replace the Responsorial Psalm with a cute hymn.

This is never ok, even if the hymn is based on the psalm. (GIRM 61, Sacrosanctum Concilium 22.3, Canon 846.1, Redemptionis Sacramentum, nos. 31, 59)

• I can’t lay it out perfectly, but when I follow along in the pew missal it’s near impossible because of all the jarring changes. Other people sit there with theirs though and act like everything’s fine, although I think I saw some of the new inductees get lost.

You aren’t being very specific, but it appears that this could be an abuse too.

• The priests have us raise our hands over candidates as a congregation in a priestly gesture to bless the candidates with them.

This just doesn’t make sense. The priest is giving the blessing, not us.

• Not as big of a deal, but one priest has a habit of walking out into the congregation during the parish school masses.

The priest should be staying in the sanctuary during Mass. (GIRM 154, Common Sence)

Is this as bad as I’m thinking it is? because I’m a recent convert and I need to know if I somehow have wound up more orthodox than my clergy I need to know if I should report anything to the bishop and leave (I have no influence as a 21 y/o Inquirer.)

Sometimes, that’s not difficult.

 

[waterbender]

I’m with ya. I’m kind of ahead in understanding Christianity having been a Protestant who loves religion like a hobby, and I’m dying to be Catholic. But the RCIA courses just ended, and when I went to them anyways I wasn’t exactly given then chance to show my understanding.

I guess it’s because of my age that they assumed I’d be a bit behind, but to be quite frank I wounded up helping to teach by interjecting my thoughts during the last few meetings in the cycle I did attend. But they act like I’m a walking encyclopedia and like I don’t “have it in my heart”. I mean, I’m already living and praying as a Catholic and have accepted some of the hardest teachings which would keep me out otherwise (sexuality, etc.) The deacon thinks I’m scrupulous because I keep trying to be zealous and orthodox or something.

again, 2> go become Orthodox. It will be much more logical and reverential than what you keep complaining of at your RC parish.

 

[adrift]

nothing you described is an abuse. That is an action in liturgy that affects the licity of the rite or validity of a sacrament.

I would be interested in where you found this definition of abuse.

How do you define licity?

 

[Spirithound]

again, 2> go become Orthodox. It will be much more logical and reverential than what you keep complaining of at your RC parish.

Bad idea. The Catholic Church has the fullness of faith.

 

[WoundedIcon]

again, 2> go become Orthodox. It will be much more logical and reverential than what you keep complaining of at your RC parish.

Why would you ever advise me into heresy over a disagreement about the liturgy? Do I really annoy you so much that you’d like to see me burn? because refusing to join the Catholic Church even when it’s known to be the truth is basically grounds for damnation.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I’m starting to be lead into thinking that the Lord wants me to “baptize” the good in my old way of life as a Protestant. Of course he does lol, but I feel drawn back towards a more Charismatic slant. But for me “Charismatic” doesn’t mean take on the usual meaning, except in the way it brings joy and peace and of course the gifts. I see liturgy, ritual, the Rosary, mysticism, chant, etc, as charismatic even. It was my charismatic gifts that kept me from becoming Orthodox in some ways, because I couldn’t shake the feeling that I’d have to keep them on the down-low. I wouldn’t get to use them to help out the community, I suspected I would be stuck with keeping them private. I want to go with the Spirit’s flow, and I understand that not as meaning being loose and free Protestant-style but doing what He’s doing in the Church. Right now I feel He’s issuing a call back to tradition and Catholic cultural identity, as shown by recent trends among us. I feel uncomfortable at my current parish because I feel like the identity of the majority of parishioners dominates, not our Catholic heritage. And as I said, I am not from around these parts so it distracts me. I mean, even the parish’s art and architecture is modernist LOL, the tabernacle even has hideous modern art on it . Combine that with what the deacon seems to believe according to what he tells me, the music, the gestures getting confused, etc. and I’m bound to smell something off.

I don’t want to go nutcase radtrad, so don’t worry about that. I want balance. And since most of my preferences seem to be in line with the Vatican’s and Benedict XVI’s I have no qualms sticking to them.

… The liturgy is like a musical composition to me. A composition made up of little individual notes of gesture and word and sound. I feel that a domino effect occurs when someone starts playing the wrong notes, and if they don’t get back on track the big picture of the song itself gets marred. And since the Mass is a prayer, the rule of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi applies. Once the music is off, so is the picture it creates in our minds. If we become convinced that the picture is right then we let it influence us and start living wrong, and our beliefs start to change. Once that happens, those beliefs inspire us to reinforce the changes we’ve made to the notes, and a cycle starts.