Postpone Move To Beatify Pius Xii, Israeli Envoy Suggests

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Karin said:
So is what you are saying … the Catholics did NOT DO ENOUGH to save the Jews? They did not save enough of them etc.?
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Is that what I said?

This is what I said: I don’t know if the Church and individual Catholics did everything they could or not. I wasn’t alive then. Most of my family were at the other end of a very, very big continent from Europe, and the rest were running around in Territorial uniforms and trying not to get shot.

All I’m saying is this: When – despite what may have been your absolutely best tippy-top 110 precent best efforts – 6 million people are dead, an entire culture is destroyed, and four out of every 10 people in the world who believed something have been massacred for no reason at all …

… you weren’t effective.

You just weren’t.
 
Penny_Plain said:
Is that what I said?
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I dont know that is why I asked;)
penny plain:
This is what I said: I don’t know if the Church and individual Catholics did everything they could or not. I wasn’t alive then. Most of my family were at the other end of a very, very big continent from Europe, and the rest were running around in Territorial uniforms and trying not to get shot.
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fair enough
penny plain:
All I’m saying is this: When – despite what may have been your absolutely best tippy-top 110 precent best efforts – 6 million people are dead, an entire culture is destroyed, and four out of every 10 people in the world who believed something have been massacred for no reason at all …

… you weren’t effective.

You just weren’t.
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6 million jews and a million or more others dead is NOT THE CHURCH’s fault…!
The jewish culture was not destroyed…it still lives in the hearts and actions/rituals of many millions of jews!
To say or insinuate that this is the Church’s fault is stupid…to say that the church did not do enough,IMHO is stupid and anti-catholic, and what does any of this have to do with beatifing (sp?) a Pope…NOTHING!
 
bones_IV said:
The Pope did not remain silent period.

catholicleague.org/research/the_confessor.htm

The war was unjust yes. Pius even denounced the war. Read the document
SUMMI PONTIFICATUS

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

The Church was against the war.
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Hello bones,

Jesus knew of all the horors of State wars and State crucifixions of Ceasar and other world leaders of His day. Jesus could have made a long speach about the world and world government actions like Pope Pius XII did above, but He didn’t. Jesus looked right at St. Peter and the Apostles and said, “Why have you (Christ’s Church) abandon me?” It was the individual choices of Catholics, regardless of what the world was up to, that Jesus was concerned with.

I have read the links you have provided. I can not find where Pope Pious XII is guiding Catholics to act faithful to Jesus Christ and accept maryrdom of themselves and their families, for the salvation of their souls, rather than to partake in Hitler’s evil unjust war. This, of course, is if Pope Pius XII did in fact believe that the Church (tens of millions of German and Italian Christians) killing for Hitler, was mortal sin, intrinsically evil, spiritually harmful or could cause eternal damnation on their souls in any way.

If German and Italian Catholics are going to die as martyrs faithful to Jesus Christ it would have been better for Pope Pius XII to focus soley, loudly and oftenly, primarily on Catholics accepting martyrdom rather than kill for Hitler’s evil unjust war.

The bibles story of a mother and her seven sons, 2 Macabees 7, is an example of how Pope Pius XII should have acted. The mother stood by and closely guided her seven sons to accept martyrdom rather than eat pork in violation to God’s will. Regarless of what the world was up to it was of the utmost importance to the mother that she protect her son’s souls from eternal damnation.

The salvation of Catholic souls, in closely guiding tens of millions of Catholics through their faithful to Jesus stand to die as martyrs rather than do evil for Hitler, is what Pope Pius XII should have had as his main priority, rather than a long speach on what the world was up to.

It is the ressurection of Catholic souls, like the mother and her seven sons and Jesus at his crucifixion, that Pope Pios XII should have focused on rather than what the world was up to. If Pope Pius XII did this, show me where he did this.

NAB 2MC 7:1 Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Sons.
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law. One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: What do you expect to achieve by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.

At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. While they were being quickly heated, he commanded his executioners to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: “The LORD God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, ‘And he will have pity on his servants.’”

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, “Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?” Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: “You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but** the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. **It is for his laws that we are dying.”

continued:
 
continued from the above post:

2 Maccabees 7

After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: “It was from Heaven that I received these: for the sake of his laws I disdain them.” Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young man’s courage, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "**It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you there will be no resurrection to life. **"They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him. Looking at the king, he said: "Since you have power among men, mortal though you are, do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. Only wait, and you will **see how his great power will torment you and your descendants. **"After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: "Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such astonishing things have happened to us. Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God.“Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the LORD. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: “I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law.” **NAB JOH 3:3 **Jesus gave him this answer: “I solemnly assure you, no one can see the reign of God unless he is begotten from above.” “How can a man be born again once he is old?” retorted Nicodemus. “Can he return to his mother’s womb and be born over again?” Jesus replied: “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit.”(continued) NAB 2MC 7:24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and **entrust him with high office. **When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.****NAB MAT ****16:24Jesus then said to his disciples: “If a man wishes to come after me, he must deny his very self, take up his cross, and begin to follow in my footsteps. Whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would a man show if he were to gain the whole world and destroy himself in the process? What can a man offer in exchange for his very self? The Son of Man will come with his Fathers glory accompanied by his angels. When he does, he will repay each man according to his conduct.” **NAB MAT **10:28"Do not fear those who deprive the body of life but cannot destroy the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.”
 
(continued)

NAB 2MC 7:26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son. In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence. Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.”

**NAB HEB 11:35 **

Women received back their dead through resurrection. Others were tortured and would not receive deliverance, in order to obtain a better resurrection.

(continued)

NAB 2MC 7:30 She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: “What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king’s command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though our living LORD treats us harshly for a little while to correct us with chastisements, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, vilest of all men! do not, in your insolence, concern yourself with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of Heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. My brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God’s covenant but you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance.” “Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God.”
“Through me and my brothers, may there be an end to the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.” At that, the king became enraged and treated him even worse than the others, since he bitterly resented the boy’s contempt. Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the LORD.
 
Karin said:
6 million jews and a million or more others dead is NOT THE CHURCH’s fault…! !
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I. Never. Said. It. Was.
Karin said:
The jewish culture was not destroyed…it still lives in the hearts and actions/rituals of many millions of jews!!
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It depends on how you define “culture,” I guess. The culture of Polish, German, and Austrian Jewry was destroyed, that’s for sure.
 
Karin said:
Polish, German and Austrian jewish communites still exist today…while their numbers are diminshed from pre WWII numbers they still do exist.
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“Diminished”?

According to your source, there are about 25,000 Jews in Poland today. Before WWII, there were about 3 million. That’s a little more than “diminshed.”

When 99.1 % of your population is gone, your culture is destroyed.
 
Penny_Plain said:
“Diminished”?

According to your source, there are about 25,000 Jews in Poland today. Before WWII, there were about 3 million. That’s a little more than “diminshed.”

When 99.1 % of your population is gone, your culture is destroyed.
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Not really…what culture has been destroyed?
They have their houses of worship…they worship in them if they are religious jews, they have their foods, language and customs etc…so WHAT exactly was destroyed (culture wise)?
CULTURE:*the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time *
 
Penny_Plain said:
“Diminished”?

According to your source, there are about 25,000 Jews in Poland today. Before WWII, there were about 3 million. That’s a little more than “diminshed.”

When 99.1 % of your population is gone, your culture is destroyed.
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also lets take into fact that 80% of the jewish population (if not more) currently live in Israel…many jews during and after WWII imigrated to Israel…hence less of a population in these countries.
 
The Jews are afraid that if the truth about Pius XII gets out and he is beatified, many Jews will convert to Catholicism just as the chief Rabbi of Rome did because of Pius XII’s example.
 
Genesis315 said:
The Jews are afraid that if the truth about Pius XII gets out and he is beatified, many Jews will convert to Catholicism just as the chief Rabbi of Rome did because of Pius XII’s example.
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Ah, so that is what this is all about?!?!
 
Karin said:
Not really…what culture has been destroyed?
They have their houses of worship…they worship in them if they are religious jews, they have their foods, language and customs etc…so WHAT exactly was destroyed (culture wise)?
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99 percent of the people.
 
Penny_Plain said:
99 percent of the people.
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yes the people where killed but you keep saying their culture was destroyed…it has not been as I pointed out they still have their language, religion, customs etc (their culture).
 
Stever Merten:
“It is the ressurection of Catholic souls, like the mother and her seven sons and Jesus at his crucifixion, that Pope Pios XII should have focused on rather than what the world was up to.”
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Same old anticatholic dribble.

There is no question what Hitler did was evil. No doubt about that. It’s very hard to comprehend, your feelings are perfectly understandable. Have you ever considered that God defines things in unofficial terms? It seems that your trying to shift blame away from Hitler and the Nazis and pointing the blame on others. You know what they say, blaming problems on others does no good.

[qoute=Steve Merten] "Jesus could have made a long speach about the world and world government actions like Pope Pius XII did above, but He didn’t. Jesus looked right at St. Peter and the Apostles and said, “Why have you (Christ’s Church) abandon me?”

Apples and Oranges.
Stever Merten:
d. I can not find where Pope Pious XII is guiding Catholics to act faithful to Jesus Christ and accept maryrdom of themselves and their families, for the salvation of their souls, rather than to partake in Hitler’s evil unjust war.
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“The ever-increasing host of Christ’s enemies” (section 73) then said that the enemies of Christ “deny or in practice neglect the vivifying truths and the values inherent in belief in God and in Christ” and want to “break the Tables of God’s commandments to substitute other tables and other standards stripped of the ethical content of [Christianity].”

Paragraphs 24 and 31 laid out Pius’s belief that prayer and not public comdemnation was the only way. He even said that Christianity was lacking as the cause of the “crops of such poignant disasters”. In paragraph, he wrote of the enemies of Christ, an obvious denunciation of the Nazis.
 
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