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bones_IV
Guest
I couldn’t agree more.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
Yup.
It’s relevant because I was going to suggest that you ask them whether this:
is true.
Hi, Aimee. Did you miss me? Here I am, stirring up trouble again with my shocking suggestions that (1) efforts that fail to prevent the deaths of a mere 6 million people can’t really be called effective; and (2) Jewish culture in Poland was destroyed.
Clearly it’s only a very tiny step from these shocking assertions to my views about ordination of hermaphrodite priests, mandatory Eucharistic nachos, and replacement of the Pope with a magic 8-ball. Also, the Cathechism should be re-done as a pop-up book, and the Mass conducted in pig Latin.
You missed me. Admit it.
K
Karin
Guest
and once again the job of saving these people did not solely rest on the Vaticans shoulders
so how ever many people they did save was effective!penny plain:
once again as long as the people where not 100% wiped out their culture was NOT destroyed that is impossible as much as you would like to argue differently
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Karin
Guest
which part the chief rabbi converting or the part that jews are afraid other jews will convert?
imagine the stats (if the second occured) then Israel would be nearly if not more than 80% Catholic
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Penny_Plain
Guest
In all seriousness, Karin, why don’t you ask a Jewish person what he or she thinks of that position? I’d put a smiley face after mine, but it’s really not very funny.once again as long as the people where not 100% wiped out their culture was NOT destroyed that is impossible as much as you would like to argue differently
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Penny_Plain
Guest
All of it.
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Karin
Guest
How can something that was not totally wiped out be “destroyed” Penny Plain?
There are still jews in these countires their culture has not been destroyed…do you equate the number of jews to how alive or destroyed a culture is??
as to my smiley…it was in reference to you arguing that the culture was destroyed not at the jewish lives that where lost in WWII.
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Karin
Guest
well we do know the awnser to the first part so why question that?
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Karin
Guest
Though European Jewry was nearly destroyed in the Shoah, Europe’s Jewish culture was not extinguished. SOURCE
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Penny_Plain
Guest
Yes.
Take Warsaw, for example. Before WWII, it had a Jewish quarter, as many European cities did. There were Jewish schools and businesses, synagogues, cemeteries, libraries, and all the things that a culture builds up after living in the same place for hundreds of years. People spoke Yiddish, and there were families that had lived there for a long, long time. People grew up where their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents grew up.
Most of the people died, and most of the rest emigrated. The businesses were taken over by Germans or bombed flat or first taken over by Germans and then bombed flat. The synagogues were destroyed. The cemetaries were vandalized. The books were burned.
Ask a Jew if it’s the same.
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Karin
Guest
Oh now you want it to be the same as it was before WWII?
It may not be the same but it still has culture (jewish).
Unless all the polish jews where killed or left poland than their culture was not destroyed!
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Penny_Plain
Guest
Whatever you say, Karin. You found a website that contradicts my position, so clearly I haven’t a leg to stand on. You win.
Anyone want some nachos?
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Karin
Guest
OH nachos sounds great…can I have extra hot peppers though
It is not about winning Penny Plain…it is about not twisitng words and their definitions around to suit your position.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello bones,
Is tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler, evil? Did tens of millions of Catholics put their souls in danger of damnation in the action of killing for Hitler?
One soul going to hell is more life lost (eternal life) than the combine years of life cut short from all the wars in human history.
What Hitler, the Nazis or the world do is of little importance if tens of millions of Catholics abandoned Christ, were unfaithful to Christ, committed mortal sin, practiced intrinsic evil, and put their souls in danger of damnation, in the act of killing for Hitler. This is unless Pope Pius XII believed that there was nothing imoral or could harm Catholic souls in the action of killing for Hitler.
Hitler and his army, an army mostly made up of Christians, brought about the deaths of 80,000,000 people. Yes, what Hitler and the Nazis did is evil. But what the world does is infinitely nothing compared to if tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics are now burning in hell because they were unfaithful to Jesus in killing for Hitler. Leading Christ’s flock into eternal life is infinitely more important than stopping physical death, physical holocausts and world wars. The up side of had Pope Pius guided tens of millions of Catholics to accept martyrdom rather than kill fo Hitler, there would not have been WWII with 80,000,000 dead becaus Hitler would not have had an army.
The Pope’s job is to lead Christ’s Church into eternal life. Did Pope Pius XII properly guide tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics, who killed for Hitler, into eternal life? Beatification of a Pope should be based on how well a Pope led the Church (millions of Christians) into eternal life rather than how well that Pope condemned world leaders.
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Karin
Guest
So are you suggesting that the Pope had /has control over peoples “free will”??
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Penny_Plain
Guest
I have a question, and it’s not intended to bait anyone or make the Church look foolish or all those other terrible things you guys seem to think I do:
After Kristallnacht, at least, it seemed fairly clear that the Nazis had it in for the Jews in a big way, even if nobody sane could imagine something as horrible as Treblinka. Would it have been right for the Pope to issue a statement specifically telling Catholic Germans that confiscating the property of Jews, humiliating them, beating them, and killing them was grave matter?
If not, why not? If it would have been right, why don’t you think he did so? (Or did he, and it just hasn’t appeared on this thread yet?)
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bones_IV
Guest
Your not making any sense here. I agree it is the pope’s job to lead Christ’s Church into eternal life.
From Summi Pontificatus:
From paragraphs 45 to 50 Pius condemned the racial policies of the Nazis.
“45. The Church hails with joy and follows with her maternal blessing every method of guidance and care which aims at a wise and orderly evolution of particular forces and tendencies having their origin in the individual character of each race, provided that they are not opposed to the duties incumbent on men from their unity of origin and common destiny.
46. She has repeatedly shown in her missionary enterprises that such a principle of action is the guiding star of her universal apostolate. Pioneer research and investigation, involving sacrifice, devotedness and love on the part of her missionaries of every age, have been undertaken in order to facilitate the deeper appreciative insight into the most varied civilizations and to put their spiritual values to account for a living and vital preaching of the Gospel of Christ. All that in such usages and customs is not inseparably bound up with religious errors will always be subject to kindly consideration and, when it is found possible, will be sponsored and developed.
47. Our immediate predecessor, of holy and venerated memory, applying such norms to a particularly delicate question, took some generous decisions which are a monument to his insight and to the intensity of his apostolic spirit. Nor need We tell you, Venerable Brethren, that We intend to proceed without hesitation along this way. Those who enter the Church, whatever be their origin or their speech, must know that they have equal rights as children in the House of the Lord, where the law of Christ and the peace of Christ prevail.
48. In accordance with these principles of equality, the Church devotes her care to forming cultured native clergy and gradually increasing the number of native Bishops. And in order to give external expression to these, Our intentions, We have chosen the forthcoming Feast of Christ the King to raise to the Episcopal dignity at the Tomb of the Apostles twelve representatives of widely different peoples and races. In the midst of the disruptive contrasts which divide the human family, may this solemn act proclaim to all Our sons, scattered over the world, that the spirit, the teaching and the work of the Church can never be other than that which the Apostle of the Gentiles preached: “putting on the new, (man) him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all and in all” (Colossians iii. 10, 11).”
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bones_IV
Guest
Cont:
“49. Nor is there any fear lest the consciousness of universal brotherhood aroused by the teaching of Christianity, and the spirit which it inspires, be in contrast with love of traditions or the glories of one’s fatherland, or impede the progress of prosperity or legitimate interests. For that same Christianity teaches that in the exercise of charity we must follow a God-given order, yielding the place of honor in our affections and good works to those who are bound to us by special ties. Nay, the Divine Master Himself gave an example of this preference for His Own country and fatherland, as He wept over the coming destruction of the Holy City. But legitimate and well-ordered love of our native country should not make us close our eyes to the all-embracing nature of Christian Charity, which calls for consideration of others and of their interests in the pacifying light of love.
50. Such is the marvelous doctrine of love and peace which has been such an ennobling factor in the civil and religious progress of mankind. And the heralds who proclaimed it, moved by supernatural charity, not only tilled the land and cared for the sick, but above all they reclaimed, moulded and raised life to divine heights, directing it toward the summit of sanctity in which everything is seen in the light of God. They have raised mansions and temples which show to what lofty and kindly heights the Christian ideal urges man; but above all they have made of men, wise or ignorant, strong or weak, living temples of God and branches of the very vine which is Christ. They have handed on to future generations the treasures of ancient art and wisdom and have secured for them that inestimable gift of eternal wisdom which links men as brothers by the common recognition of a supernatural ownership.”
Consider as well that the Church is not to take the place of other authorities. You seem to imply that mere words could have prevented the war. Have you not read what St. Francis of Assisi said when he stated, “Preach the gospel, when necessary use words.” The Church is to be an example for others. You seem to be asserting that Pius XII by using condemnations from the pulpit would have prevented the war. Which is an assumption and sophistic reasoning. Rather the Holy See’s efforts to put an end to the war were low profile. So what you’re suggesting would have drawn attention to the Church’s activities during the war. Steve Merten, please stop these nonsensical posts. Jewish refugee groups didn’t speak out either during the war. Interesting isn’t it? The lesson I learn from Pius’s efforts in not speaking out directly against the Nazis during the Second World War is that sometimes the best answer is doing your work in relative silence. Are you saying that the Church should encourage the enemy?
“49. Nor is there any fear lest the consciousness of universal brotherhood aroused by the teaching of Christianity, and the spirit which it inspires, be in contrast with love of traditions or the glories of one’s fatherland, or impede the progress of prosperity or legitimate interests. For that same Christianity teaches that in the exercise of charity we must follow a God-given order, yielding the place of honor in our affections and good works to those who are bound to us by special ties. Nay, the Divine Master Himself gave an example of this preference for His Own country and fatherland, as He wept over the coming destruction of the Holy City. But legitimate and well-ordered love of our native country should not make us close our eyes to the all-embracing nature of Christian Charity, which calls for consideration of others and of their interests in the pacifying light of love.
50. Such is the marvelous doctrine of love and peace which has been such an ennobling factor in the civil and religious progress of mankind. And the heralds who proclaimed it, moved by supernatural charity, not only tilled the land and cared for the sick, but above all they reclaimed, moulded and raised life to divine heights, directing it toward the summit of sanctity in which everything is seen in the light of God. They have raised mansions and temples which show to what lofty and kindly heights the Christian ideal urges man; but above all they have made of men, wise or ignorant, strong or weak, living temples of God and branches of the very vine which is Christ. They have handed on to future generations the treasures of ancient art and wisdom and have secured for them that inestimable gift of eternal wisdom which links men as brothers by the common recognition of a supernatural ownership.”
Consider as well that the Church is not to take the place of other authorities. You seem to imply that mere words could have prevented the war. Have you not read what St. Francis of Assisi said when he stated, “Preach the gospel, when necessary use words.” The Church is to be an example for others. You seem to be asserting that Pius XII by using condemnations from the pulpit would have prevented the war. Which is an assumption and sophistic reasoning. Rather the Holy See’s efforts to put an end to the war were low profile. So what you’re suggesting would have drawn attention to the Church’s activities during the war. Steve Merten, please stop these nonsensical posts. Jewish refugee groups didn’t speak out either during the war. Interesting isn’t it? The lesson I learn from Pius’s efforts in not speaking out directly against the Nazis during the Second World War is that sometimes the best answer is doing your work in relative silence. Are you saying that the Church should encourage the enemy?
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bones_IV
Guest
Holland fell to the Nazis after Kristallnacht occured, Protestant and Catholic leaders, agreed to read a public protest against the deportation of Jews. This only intensified the persecutions.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
I want to make sure I understand your answer correctly, Bonesy. You know more about this than I do, and I’m perfectly willing to regard you as authoritative on the facts.
Pius XII did not make a statement specifically telling Catholic Germans that confiscating the property of Jews, humiliating them, beating them, and killing them was grave matter. The reason he did not do so was because he believed it would have made things worse for Jews.
Is that fair?
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