Poverty Each Year Kills 900,000 Children

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Ani Ibi:
Whew! Powerful language, n’est-ce pas? Gives a soul pause for self-reflection.
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Self-reflection is always wise before trying to determine people’s motives. Increased reflection is even wiser before reaching conclusions on a person based on one’s perception of such a person as an ‘opponent’. Yet more wise words from JP2 🙂

Mike
 
Hey, Mike. I’m with you 100%. Jesus taught love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness. Peace and justice is the way to go. Too many people worship the almighty dollar instead of the Almighty. Pray, pray, pray. 👍
 
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Evangel:
Found it!!

Not October 29 but September 29, 1979

It was given in Italian.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1979/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_19790929_irlanda-dublino-drogheda_it.html
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Why would a Polish Pope who could speak English deliver a homily in Italian in an English speaking country? My memory is that in his visits to Ireland and here in Scotland the Holy Father spoke in English.
 
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Matt25:
Why would a Polish Pope who could speak English deliver a homily in Italian in an English speaking country?
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The Irish speak Irish do they not? Do you know where Ireland is? Given that His Holiness does not speak Irish, do you know that he did not speak Italian?
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Matt25:
My memory is that in his visits to Ireland and here in Scotland the Holy Father spoke in English.
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Does your memory include the text in question?
 
Ani Ibi:
The Irish speak Irish do they not? Do you know where Ireland is? Given that His Holiness does not speak Irish, do you know that he did not speak Italian?
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We do now. If you’d read my post, you’d have found a link and even a video. It seems however you would rather continue being unpleasant towards Matt instead.

Mike
 
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Evangel:
JWD is doctrine. The self-restraint used by the U.S. seems to answers Cdl. Ratzinger’s rhetorical quite well.

Nevertheless, you still have not answered the question on the union of the two statements. It still seems to me that the anti-war types are ignoring doctrine in favor of an out-of-context quote of a prudential judgement.
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I always thought that “Military Intelligence” was a contradiction in terms but, it’s nothing compared to this statement. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_132.gif
 
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KathleenElsie:
IMHO The world has been throwing money at this for as long as I can remember. The countries that need the most help are those that have internal governmental problems and can’t or won’t distribute the resources to those it was ment for. Some of the money that is given for food is turned into weapons to keep the masses in line.

Those countries that have used the relief wisely are countries we are now compeating with. Money and help should be given to those who will use it wisely. That is being a good steward of what the world has to offer.
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And the reason why certain countries use the money to make weapons to keep the masses in line is because our very USA refuses to get rid of its weapons especially nulcear weapons.
 
Ani Ibi:
The Irish speak Irish do they not? Do you know where Ireland is? Given that His Holiness does not speak Irish, do you know that he did not speak Italian?
Does your memory include the text in question?
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No the Irish mostly speak English. Its one of the consequences of the 900 years or so of foreign occupation. And I know where it is since I have visited it and have relatives there.

I vividly remember the Holy Father saying -
"“Now I wish to speak to all men and women engaged in violence. I appeal to you, in language of passionate pleading. On my knees, I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace. You may claim to seek justice. I, too, believe in justice, and seek justice. But violence only delays the day of justice. Violence destroys the work of justice…” because these are the words that the BBC chose to broadcast.

Be that as it may 900 000 children a year are still dying from poverty. One of the factors leading to this is certainly war and so the words of the Holy Father are as important now as they were then.
 
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Evangel:
Is it fair to assume that the sole version on the Vatican site can be considered as a master source document?
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Hmmm. The BBC. The Vatican. That’s a tough one. :hmmm:
 
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Matt25:
No the Irish mostly speak English.
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Are you making this up?
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Matt25:
Its one of the consequences of the 900 years or so of foreign occupation.
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That was then. This is now. A papal visit cedes to some diplomatic protocols. Would you speak English if Scotland were to send you as an official representative to Quebec? Do you know where Quebec is?
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Matt25:
And I know where it is since I have visited it and have relatives there.
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How do I know you were not visiting Wales?
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Matt25:
I vividly remember the Holy Father saying -
"“Now I wish to speak to all men and women engaged in violence. I appeal to you, in language of passionate pleading. On my knees, I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and to return to the ways of peace. You may claim to seek justice. I, too, believe in justice, and seek justice. But violence only delays the day of justice. Violence destroys the work of justice…” because these are the words that the BBC chose to broadcast.
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These are the words the BBC chose to broadcast. Do you have links to the words which the BBC chose not to broadcast?
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Matt25:
Be that as it may 900 000 children a year are still dying from poverty. One of the factors leading to this is certainly war and so the words of the Holy Father are as important now as they were then.
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War. Just War. Are you suggesting that there is no difference?
 
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Matt25:
Pope John Paul II…the very fabric of society.
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Quote all you like. Misquote all you like. Peace at the expense of Justice: you continue to evade this question which is at the very centre of this discussion.
 
Ani Ibi:
These are the words the BBC chose to broadcast. Do you have links to the words which the BBC chose not to broadcast?
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Yes, I have posted them before but you can get the full text of the Drogheda Homily at ireland.com/focus/papaldeath/drogheda.htm the website Ireland.com is in English you will be happy to know. In fact virtually every Irish website, newspaper, magazine, book etc etc in English for some reason.
 
Ani Ibi:
Quote all you like. Misquote all you like. Peace at the expense of Justice: you continue to evade this question which is at the very centre of this discussion.
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There is a special Peace page on the Vatican website vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/prayer-peace_index.html I commend it to your prayerful attention. You will find the Encyclical Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth) and all the Message’s for the World Day of Peace January 1 as well as numerous other interventions by Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Please study the site and then you can tell me how I am misrepresenting the position of Holy Church on these issues.

Again I draw your attention to the January 2005 message, ie after the Iraq invasion
To attain the good of peace there must be a clear and conscious acknowledgment that violence is an unacceptable evil and that it never solves problems. “Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings”. What is needed is* a great effort to form consciences* and to educate the younger generation to goodness by upholding that integral and fraternal humanism which the Church proclaims and promotes. This is the foundation for a social, economic and political order respectful of the dignity, freedom and fundamental rights of each person.

The good of peace and the common good
  1. Fostering peace by overcoming evil with good requires careful reflection * on the common good* and on its social and political implications. When the common good is promoted at every level, peace is promoted. Can an individual find complete fulfilment without taking account of his social nature, that is, his being “with” and “for” others? The common good closely concerns him. It closely concerns every expression of his social nature: the family, groups, associations, cities, regions, states, the community of peoples and nations. * Each person, in some way, is called to work for the common good*, constantly looking out for the good of others as if it were his own. This responsibility belongs in a particular way to political authorities at every level, since they are called to create that sum of social conditions which permit and foster in human beings the integral development of their person.
The common good therefore demands respect for and the integral promotion of the person and his fundamental rights, as well as respect for and the promotion of the rights of nations on the universal plane. In this regard, the Second Vatican Council observed that “the increasingly close interdependence gradually encompassing the entire world is leading to an increasingly universal common good… and this involves rights and duties with respect to the whole human race. Every social group must take account of the needs and legitimate aspirations of other groups and the common good of the entire human family”. The good of humanity as a whole, including future generations, calls for true international cooperation, to which every nation must offer its contribution
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Evangel:
Interesting. I wonder why the Vatican does not have the English transcript. Is it fair to assume that the sole version on the Vatican site can be considered as a master source document?

Did JPII compose his speeches in Italian and/or Polish?

Has anyone found a video of the entire homily?
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I doubt a video of the whole thing exists anywhere - I’m surprised to have found a video from 1979 at all! But there is a video of part of it that matches the text, of which we have the whole. That seems reasonably good evidence 🙂

As to the language, I don’t know what language he composed his speeches in - but he spoke English rather well by all accounts, so I have my doubts he wouldn’t notice something that was a mis-translation of such an important part of the homily.

Mike
 
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Matt25:
There is a special Peace page on the Vatican website vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/peace/prayer-peace_index.html I commend it to your prayerful attention. You will find the Encyclical Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth) and all the Message’s for the World Day of Peace January 1 as well as numerous other interventions by Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Please study the site and then you can tell me how I am misrepresenting the position of Holy Church on these issues.

Again I draw your attention to the January 2005 message, ie after the Iraq invasion
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You presume too much. You have yet to apply Just War theory to your premise. When you play nice, we’ll play nice.
 
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Matt25:
Yes, I have posted them before but you can get the full text of the Drogheda Homily at the website Ireland.com
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Still, there is this apparent discrepency between what is on your website and what is on the Vatican site. For the time being, I’ll have to go with the Vatican content. Not only is it coming from an official source, it certainly seems to me to be in conformity with Church doctrine.

And frankly, since (a) the entire context of the Drogheda homily is “the troubles” in the region of Ireland, and (b) the content is so clearly directed at “Catholics and Protestants” alike, I’m hard-pressed to see JPII talking about anything except the futility of terrorism.
 
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