Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[JaneFrances]

I think your statement actually demonstrates why i use the Socratic method to understand first what a person says and second whether it is true. For, as you might see, what you wrote is both vague and ambiguous, which makes it easy for me to misunderstand you. Please allow me to demonstrate:

You wrote:

I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the pomp!I believe your statement is vague, because you do not say exactly what i am doing that constitutes pomp. Is it my choice of words that is pomp? or my method of asking questions? or my insistence that i cannot know what Jesus said until i know the meaning of each word that he used?

I believe your statement is ambiguous, because the word pomp has two different meanings, which give your statement a completely different meaning depending on what definition we apply. For the word pomp, my small dictionary tells me, can mean:1. A magnificent and majestic display.

or2. An ostentatious or pretentious or artificial or pompous display. Hence, i can take your statement to be one of admiration or one where you think me a pompous arse! Seeing that this is the case, i think it wise for me to ask questions to be sure i understand what you mean, don’t you? Were i to find you to mean (1) then i would ask what you admire most, my method or my use of words or my tenacity of determining the exact meaning of Christ’s words.

If i to find you to mean (2) i would have to decide whether or not to defend my character by explaining why i have adopted the language, or method, or perseverance for the truth. Then again, i could just overlook your words, giving you the benefit of the doubt and blushing over my assumption that you admire my words or intelligence or character. This, in fact, is the course i will take, unless you actually think me a pompous arse and want to prove it to everyone else, in which case i will be happy to engage the debate that my intentions and method are, i hope, good (though, i admit, not perfectly so).

Please understand that i am not, as my son says, dising you. I often write and say things that are vague or ambiguous for the sake of being concise. What i am saying is that, when the statement a person makes is important, it is best for me to ask questions to make sure i understand.

===============================

Do you Jane see how important the meaning of words are to me? My misunderstanding one four-letter word you wrote can result in grave misrepresentation of your entire meaning. However, if you do not think me wise in insisting on the importance of knowing the definition of words, consider the words of the wise:

Words - so innocent and powerless as they are, as standing in a dictionary, how potent for good and evil they become in the hands of one who knows how to combine them.- Nathaniel Hawthorne, 1804 - 1864Dictionary: The universe in alphabetical order.- Anatole France, 1844 - 1924If you have a big enough dictionary, just about everything is a word.- Dave BarryThe greatest masterpiece in literature is only a dictionary out of order.- Jean Cocteau, 1798 - 1863When i read something too difficult for me, i keep a dictionary by my side. Sometimes i look up even words i think i understand and find that they have other definitions i never considered (such as the word pomp). You see, if i misunderstand even one word of what you write, i can completely misunderstand you. The same is true of Jesus’ words, isn’t it? If you or i misunderstand one word He says, we risk misunderstanding Him. That’s a risk i’m not willing to take. I hope you can appreciate why i’m asking what each word He spoke means when He said:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

LOL. . . . The funniest part, to me, is that “pomp” was a last moment alteration. I orginally used “hoopla.” I didn’t look either up in the dictionary, so I wasn’t savvy regarding the official definitions of either word. What I meant to say was:

I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the business of formalities!

I suppose, at best, my usage was lazy. At worst, Freudian.

Forgive me. Let’s move on. I’m interested to know better your understanding of “positionally perfect” and your responses to that which I’ve already offered.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote by Socrates4Jesus:
If someone were to say, “No one is perfect!” i think you might reply, “Actually, Jesus was perfect, as was his mother Mary and perhaps many saints since the first century AD. In fact, anyone to whom God gives sufficient grace will be able to reach such a state of moral goodness and sinless perfection before the death of her physical body.”

… Indeed, I think you have hit upon the essence of the doctrine of grace. With God, all things are possible. … I am actually equally astonished that someone could know Christ and not know His power to preserve, transform and protect.

Then, i would like to ask you Jane to take on the role of teacher and i will adopt the role of your student. For you have knowledge that i do not have and want to examine. As a good student i will ask many questions until i am sure that i understand you. I hope you will be patient and not mind.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

LOL. . . . The funniest part, to me, is that “pomp” was a last moment alteration. I orginally used “hoopla.” I didn’t look either up in the dictionary, so I wasn’t savvy regarding the official definitions of either word. What I meant to say was:

I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the business of formalities!

I suppose, at best, my usage was lazy. At worst, Freudian.

Forgive me. Let’s move on. I’m interested to know better your understanding of “positionally perfect” and your responses to that which I’ve already offered.

No forgiveness is necessary! God used your slip of the pen to demonstrate why each word He says is important.

Would you like to change direction and be the one who asks me questions? If so, i will be glad to answer them if you agree that when i am finished answering them to your satisfaction, you will allow me to ask questions of you so i might better understand what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[JaneFrances]

Quote by Socrates4Jesus:
If someone were to say, “No one is perfect!” i think you might reply, “Actually, Jesus was perfect, as was his mother Mary and perhaps many saints since the first century AD. In fact, anyone to whom God gives sufficient grace will be able to reach such a state of moral goodness and sinless perfection before the death of her physical body.”

Then, i would like to ask you Jane to take on the role of teacher and i will adopt the role of your student. For you have knowledge that i do not have and want to examine. As a good student i will ask many questions until i am sure that i understand you. I hope you will be patient and not mind.

As a mother, patience is a virtue I pray for daily (sometimes hourly or even moment by moment).

I am most willing to answer your questions as best I can with the resources I have and the time I can offer (as I have said several times previously in this very thread). You only need ask.

And while I will try to prepare myself, through prayer and thoughtful consideration, to be a good servant for the movements of the Holy Spirit during this discourse, I would urge you to remove the image of me as teacher and you as student. We both are pupils of our Lord.

Luke 12:12
. . .the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

 

[guanophore]

Wonko:

Please consider what you wrote. Your first premise is this:

(1) How does one be perfect? We don’t. … what you have to do is not be perfect (which is impossible) …And your second premise is this:

(2) By making yourself holy, you are being perfect.Isn’t true that a person who is being perfect is in fact perfect? First you say it is impossible to be perfect (1), and then you say it is possible to be perfect (2). It seems a contradiction to assert that both (1) and (2) are true, for (2) is the opposite of (1). To be rational, you must either adopt (1) and reject (2) or adopt (2) and reject (1) or change the way you word (1) or (2) so that the two statements do not contradict each other.

For example, you could adopt Socrates’ argument against Protagoras:

… although there is a difficulty in becoming good, yet this is possible for a time, and only for a time. But having become good, to remain in a good state and be good … is not possible, and is not granted to man; God only has this blessing.If you were to hold Socrates’ position that there is a difference between becoming and being (or remaining) you might then amend your premises to say something like this:

(A) How does one be (or remain) perfect practically? We don’t. … what you have to do is not remain perfect (which is impossible) …and

(B) By allowing the Holy Spirit to make you more holy, you are becoming perfect practically, even though you likely will never reach a state of sinless perfection in this life.Do you agree that (A) and (B) are a more reasonable premises to hold than (1) and (2)?

PERFECT

Without flaw or error; a state of completion or fulfillment. God’s perfection means that He is complete in Himself. He lacks nothing; He has no flaws. He is perfect in all the characteristics of His nature. He is the basis for and standard by which all other perfection is to be measured (Job 36:4; Ps 18:30; 19:7; Matt 5:48).

I hope this is not too much copyrighted material to post!

By contrast, man’s perfection is relative and dependent on God for its existence. As applied to a person’s moral state in this life, perfection may refer either to a relatively blameless lifestyle (Gen 6:9; Job 1:1; James 3:2) or to a person’s maturity as a believer (Phil 3:15; James 1:4). Because perfection in this life is never reached, man will continue to sin (Phil 3:12,15; 1 John 1:8). A believer’s perfection in the next life, however, will be without sin (Eph 5:27; Col 1:28; 1 Thess 5:23).
(from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

(continued)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

As a mother, patience is a virtue I pray for daily (sometimes hourly or even moment by moment).

I am most willing to answer your questions as best I can with the resources I have and the time I can offer (as I have said several times previously in this very thread). You only need ask.

And while I will try to prepare myself, through prayer and thoughtful consideration, to be a good servant for the movements of the Holy Spirit during this discourse, I would urge you to remove the image of me as teacher and you as student. We both are pupils of our Lord.

Luke 12:12

. . .the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Excellent! You shall be my teacher with my undivided attention for as long as this class remains in session.

Well, i have two lines of inquiry and cannot decide which road to take: The first is the one we have been pursuing, which is the meaning of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48. The second is like it, which is the meaning of the word gospel. I will let you choose what path we will walk down. Let me know now, for i must go, and i will post my question later.

 

[guanophore]

PERFECT, PERFECTION

(pur’-fekt), (per-fek’-shun) (shalem, tamim; teleios, teleiotes):

1. In the Old Testament: “Perfect” in the Old Testament is the translation of shalem, “finished,” “whole,” “complete,” used (except in Deut 25:15, “perfect weight”) of persons, e.g. a “perfect heart,” i.e. wholly or completely devoted to Yahweh (1 Kings 8:61, etc.; 1 Chron 12:38; Isa 38:3, etc.); tamim, “complete,” “perfect,” “sound or unblemished,” is also used of persons and of God, His way, and law (“Noah was a just man and perfect,” the Revised Version margin “blameless” (Gen 6:9); “As for God, his way is perfect” (Ps 18:30); " “complete,” and various other words are translated “perfect.”

Perfection is the translation of various words so translated once only: kalil (Lam 2:15); mikhlal, “completeness” (Ps 50:2); minleh, “possession” tikhlah, “completeness,” or "perfection (Ps 119:96); takhlith (twice), “end,” “completeness” (Job 11:7, “Canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?” 28:3, "searcheth out all the Revised Version (British and American) King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) “to the furthest bound”; compare 26:10, “unto the confines of light and darkness”); tom, “perfect,” “completeness” (Isa 47:9, the King James Version “They shall come upon thee in their perfection,” the Revised Version (British and American) “in their full measure”). the Revised Version margin gives the meaning of “the Urim and the Thummim” (Ex 28:30. etc.) as “the Lights and the Perfections.”

1. In the New Testament: In the New Testament “perfect” is usually the tr of teleios, primarily, “having reached the end,” “term,” “limit,” hence, “complete,” “full,” “perfect” (Matt 5:48, “Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; Matt 19:21, "if thou wouldst be perfect; Eph 4:13, the King James Version “till we all come … unto a perfect man,” the Revised Version (British and American) “full-grown”; Phil 3:15, “as many as are perfect,” the American Revised Version margin “full-grown”; 1 Cor 2:6; Col 1:28, “perfect in Christ”; 4:12; James 3:2 m, etc.).

Other words are teleioo. “to perfect,” “to end,” “complete” (Luke 13:32, “The third day I am perfected,” the Revised Version margin “end my course”; John 17:23, “perfected into one”; 2 Cor 12:9; Phil 3:12, the Revised Version (British and American) “made perfect”; Heb 2:10, etc.); also epiteleo, “to bring through to an end” (2 Cor 7:1, "perfecting holiness in the fear of God OQ; Gal 3:3, “Are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) “perfected in the flesh,” margin “Do ye now make an end in the flesh?”); katartizo “to make quite ready,” “to make complete,” is translated “perfect,” “to perfect” (Matt 21:16, “perfected praise”; Luke 6:40, “Every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher”; 1 Cor 1:10; 2 Cor 13:11, “be perfected”; 1 Thess 3:10; 1 Peter 5:10, the Revised Version margin “restore”); akribos, “accurately,” “diligently,” is translated “perfect” (Luke 1:3, “having had perfect understanding,” the Revised Version (British and American) “having traced … accurately”; Acts 18:26 the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) “more accurately”). We have also artios, “fitted,” “perfected” (2 Tim 3:7, the Revised Version (British and American) “complete”); pleroo, “to fill,” “to make full” (Rev 3:2, the American Standard Revised Version “perfected,” the English Revised Version “fulfilled”); katartismos, “complete adjustment,” “perfecting” (Eph 4:12, “for the perfecting of the saints”).

Perfection is the translation of katartisis “thorough adjustment,” “fitness” (2 Cor 13:9, the Revised Version (British and American) “perfecting”); of teleiosis (Heb 7:11); of teleiotess (Heb 6:1, the Revised Version margin “full growth”); it is translated “perfectness” (Col 3:14); “perfection”. in Luke 8:14 is the translation of telesphoreo, “to bear on to completion or perfection.” In Apocrypha “perfect,” “perfection,” etc., are for the most part the translation of words from telos, “the end,” e.g. Wisd 4:13; Ecclus 34:8; 44:17; 45:8, suntelia “full end”; 24:28; 50:11.

(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

If we understand “perfect” in the sense of being “complete” it can be said that we are "perfect’ in that we already have everything we need (we care complete) because of the grace of God poured out on us through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Having been provided with everything, we are becoming holy in a practical manner daily.

 

[JaneFrances]

Excellent! You shall be my teacher with my undivided attention for as long as this class remains in session.

WOW. . .for someone who prides himself on a particular interest in deriving true meanings, did you even read what I wrote???

Sure, if it helps you to role play teacher/student. . .proceed

Well, i have two lines of inquiry and cannot decide which road to take: The first is the one we have been pursuing, which is the meaning of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48. The second is like it, which is the meaning of the word gospel. I will let you choose what path we will walk down. Let me know now, for i must go, and i will post my question later.

Let’s do Matthew 5:48.

Gospel is easy. See Strongs # 2098.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Let’s do Matthew 5:48.

Gospel is easy. See Strongs # 2098.

Sounds like a plan! and sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

I think you agree that the meaning of words is important, as the example with the use of the word pomp shows.

I know you agree that we should seek to understand the true meaning of every word our loving Redeemer and Lord speaks, for to know the meaning of His words and the context in which He uses them is to have a better chance of knowing the meaning of what He said. This, of course, is especially important when He speaks of how to be rescued from hell, which is also called the gospel.

Christ’s words in Matthew 5:48 are the gospel, you said, so you and i should be diligent to carefully examine each word, and the context of His statement, to know what He meant when He said:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

As a student (or someone who is trying to learn something he does not know from someone who is willing to teach him) i’m asking if, so far, i am understanding you correctly.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

PERFECT

Without flaw or error; a state of completion or fulfillment. God’s perfection means that He is complete in Himself. He lacks nothing; He has no flaws. He is perfect in all the characteristics of His nature. He is the basis for and standard by which all other perfection is to be measured (Job 36:4; Ps 18:30; 19:7; Matt 5:48).

I hope this is not too much copyrighted material to post!

By contrast, man’s perfection is relative and dependent on God for its existence. As applied to a person’s moral state in this life, perfection may refer either to a relatively blameless lifestyle (Gen 6:9; Job 1:1; James 3:2) or to a person’s maturity as a believer (Phil 3:15; James 1:4). Because perfection in this life is never reached, man will continue to sin (Phil 3:12,15; 1 John 1:8). A believer’s perfection in the next life, however, will be without sin (Eph 5:27; Col 1:28; 1 Thess 5:23).
(from Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

(continued)

Guano:

Thank you for adding to the conversation. I think i should like to ask you more questions about the meaning of the word perfect in Christ’s statement. If you stay with my dialog with Jane perhaps you will explore in greater depth the meaning of the word that Jesus uses. In fact, in Matthew 5:48, he uses the word perfect twice:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)First He states that you and i should be perfect. The question Christ anticipated people would ask is, “How perfectly good do i have to be?” So, He makes it as clear as air by saying, “just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Now, you are saying that the perfection Jesus expects from you and me is a different kind of perfection from that which God the Father possesses. If this is the case, then why does Jesus say that we should be perfect in exactly the same way that God is perfect? For, isn’t this what the words “just as” mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Sure, if it helps you to role play teacher/student - proceed. Let’s do Matthew 5:48. Gospel is easy. See Strongs # 2098.

I have tried to read your posts carefully, Jane, and think i apprehend what you are saying (although i do not yet comprehend how it can be true). What you appear to be saying is this:

Jesus statement, “Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Is the entire point of His sermon on the mount. It is, as you say, the gospel that you and i should be as perfect as God the Father. This is not an option, it is a requirement to get into heaven, for Jesus concludes the sermon by saying:

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The fact that being perfect is a requirement for entrance to heaven is demonstrated, i think you believe, by the context of the passage, for our loving Redeemer says:

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The Pharisees, i’m sure you agree, were the superstars of the ancient Jewish religion. They prided themselves on being perfect in everything they said and did and others hoped to become like them. Jesus, however, was saying they were not as perfect as God Himself, for they still sinned in their words, deeds and also their thoughts, for He teaches:

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
and

27"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.and

31"It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.and

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

and38"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.and

43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
and He gives many other qualifications to what being just as perfect as God the Father is, exactly. In everything in which the famous religious rabbis said they were perfect, Jesus proved them liars. For no one could reach the bar set as high as Jesus set the bar; no one, of course, but Jesus Himself (for He was and still is God in the flesh, being both God and man).

(Continued)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You also tell me, Jane, that Jesus is not the only one who lived the perfect life of complete sinlessness. Mary, for example, lived such a life, as she was as perfect as God the Father, herself. Other saints have lived the perfect life, too. In fact, anyone can live the perfect life, here on earth before the death of her mortal bodies. This, indeed, is the gospel.

This perfection, i believe you are saying, is impossible for people to achieve in their own power, but with God all things are possible. The Catholic need only to confess her sins to a priest and ask that the Holy Spirit do the impossible in her, for Jesus also said in the sermon on the mount:

16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

and7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.This power to perfectly put the needs of others above her own is available to her, if only she will continuously confess her sins, repent of them, ask for the power to obey, trust that the Holy Spirit will empower her, and obey all that the Holy Spirit reveals to her. For where God guides, He provides.

This is the meaning of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48, which is the entire point He is making to His disciples and the crowds listening to Him: Every Catholic should be just as perfect as God. It was an astonishing thing to say, and still is to this day. The reaction of the crowds who listened to our beloved Lord Jesus’ sermon is not surprising:

28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.It was something completely new that He told them; and this fantastic truth turned the world upside down: God will actually make us as good and perfect as Himself!

Jane, is this what you are saying Jesus meant by these words?

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane, is this what you are saying Jesus meant by these words?

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)

Socrates, you have said a great many things, yet have only one question.

For me to answer this one question, I would have to assent that all the great many things you have written are in accordance with Catholic doctrine. I can not do this at this time.

In short, the Catholic Church teaches that Christ’s words are truth and life.

We are to live in imitation of Christ, whose will is perfectly submitted to the will of the Father.

If we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect, we must first understand the nature of His perfection.

Our Lord is perfect in everything He is and everything He does. He is Love. He is Mercy. He is Justice. He is Creator. He is Savior. He is Spirit. He is Unity in Trinity. He is Power. He is Eternal.

In turn, we are commanded by Christ to be perfect in everything we are and everything we do.

If you have more specific questions, I am open to considering them, but these large brushstrokes you are presenting and with which you are expecting me to agree or disagree are not conducive to dialogue. They present more as dissertations rather than discussion. This is not the purpose of my participation in this thread.

 

[guanophore]

So, i want to focus (for now) on just one thing that you said until i fully apprehend it and even comprehend whether it be true. That thing is your statement that, “it is practically possible for a human being, by grace, to reject sin and submit himself wholly to the will of God, as this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” What i think you are saying is that it is possible for a person on this side of eternity to become as perfect as God Himself. So, you appear to be saying that our Savior Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48, which are quoted this way:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."might actually be understood to mean this:

"Remain perfectly good (and sinless) in a practical sense in exactly the same way that the Father God is perfectly good (and sinless) in the practical sense."In other words, what i think you believe is that a person can reach a state of sinless perfection where she ceases to sin and remains as perfectly good as Jesus Himself was.

If someone were to say, “No one is perfect!” i think you might reply, “Actually, Jesus was perfect, as was his mother Mary and perhaps many saints since the first century AD. In fact, anyone to whom God gives sufficient grace will be able to reach such a state of moral goodness and sinless perfection before the death of her physical body.”

Tell me, please, is this really what you are saying? If it is, it is an astonishing idea of which i did not think possible and would very much like to learn why you believe this. If your idea proves to be true, it would certainly put Jesus’ words in a different light for me.

God has already given sufficient grace to all who believe. In Christ, we are already heirs of the promised perfection.

Rom 1:4-7
Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom **we have received grace **and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ; 7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints…"

Rom 5:2
2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand"

1 Cor 1:4-9

4 I give thanks to God always for you because **of the grace of God which was given you **in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him with all speech and all knowledge - 6 even as the testimony to Christ was confirmed among you - 7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. "

It is our job to receive that grace, and act upon it, producing the fruits thereof.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Guano:

Did you overlook my reply to your post?

Guano:

Thank you for adding to the conversation. I think i should like to ask you more questions about the meaning of the word perfect in Christ’s statement. If you stay with my dialog with Jane perhaps you will explore in greater depth the meaning of the word that Jesus uses. In fact, in Matthew 5:48, he uses the word perfect twice:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)First He states that you and i should be perfect. The question Christ anticipated people would ask is, “How perfectly good do i have to be?” So, He makes it as clear as air by saying, “just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Now, you are saying that the perfection Jesus expects from you and me is a different kind of perfection from that which God the Father possesses. If this is the case, then why does Jesus say that we should be perfect in exactly the same way that God is perfect? For, isn’t this what the words “just as” mean?
​

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates, you have said a great many things, yet have only one question… If you have more specific questions, I am open to considering them, but these large brushstrokes you are presenting and with which you are expecting me to agree or disagree are not conducive to dialogue. They present more as dissertations rather than discussion. This is not the purpose of my participation in this thread.

Sorry, Jane, i was trying my best to state what i thought you believed about Matthew 5:48 and it appears i said too much. I will keep my brush strokes smaller:

What would you say the word be in Jesus’ words “Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect” means?

 

[guanophore]

Guano:

Did you overlook my reply to your post?

Guano:

Thank you for adding to the conversation. I think i should like to ask you more questions about the meaning of the word perfect in Christ’s statement. If you stay with my dialog with Jane perhaps you will explore in greater depth the meaning of the word that Jesus uses. In fact, in Matthew 5:48, he uses the word perfect twice:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48, New American Bible)First He states that you and i should be perfect. The question Christ anticipated people would ask is, “How perfectly good do i have to be?” So, He makes it as clear as air by saying, “just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Now, you are saying that the perfection Jesus expects from you and me is a different kind of perfection from that which God the Father possesses. If this is the case, then why does Jesus say that we should be perfect in exactly the same way that God is perfect? For, isn’t this what the words “just as” mean?
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I don’t know if it is “different”. God is complete, all sufficient, just as is the grace we have been given, and therefore we are “complete” (perfect).

I did miss one of your posts, so I went back to read. I think that your summary of the teaching of Jesus, referred to here as a dissertation is very close to the mark. I could not see anything wrong with it, though I am not a theology expert.

 

[Truthstalker]

Socrates,

What is it you are looking for that has not been answered? You either need to refine your question or ask a new one.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates,

What is it you are looking for that has not been answered? You either need to refine your question or ask a new one.

What question has already been answered, TS?

And please, call me Soc.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t know if it is “different”. God is complete, all sufficient, just as is the grace we have been given, and therefore we are “complete” (perfect).

It appears that it would not be different, Guano. For, if i were to say, “I am as intelligent as Guano” you might smile, knowing that i am not as smart as you. If i would say, “I am as witty as Guano” you might agree. In the former case, you might not believe I am equal to you in intelligence. In the latter case you might agree that i am equal to you in humor.

Now, Jesus said:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Do you believe, as Janet does, that He is saying someone can be equal to God in perfection?