Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[JaneFrances]

Let me think about that and get back to you. Also, i don’t want to be unreasonable. . . Let me know what you prefer.

I prefer an organic discussion. I do not wish to be limited to a forced construct.

If you want to discuss how what i think might be the meaning is not the actual meaning of Hebrews 10 or Matthew 5, i’m willing to go down that road, instead.

I don’t know what that sentence means???

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

Thank you for answering my question. I’m not sure i understand your answer, so i’d like to ask more questions.

 

[mikeledes]

LOL! You’re OK in my book, Michael! It’s a little confusing to me, too. Let me do my best to explain from my point of view:

In another discussion thread Jane and Edwin were trying to explain to me what Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48 meant:
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
That was the topic of discussion in that thread. It’s an important topic, as that verse, i believe, is the point of Jesus’ entire sermon. Edwin explained what the words meant in Greek. I said it’s all Greek to me; why don’t we stick to English? Jane insisted i was being unreasonable to not listen to Edwin. Someone else said, “Wait a minute, guys, Hebrews chapter 10 explains what Jesus means.” Jane and Edwin wanted to continue to argue about Matthew 5:48.

So i started a new discussion thread asking people to explain what Hebrews, chapter 10 means. I hoped that this would help me understand Jesus. I thought that if Jane and Edwin wanted to continue the debate about Matthew 5:48 they could do so in the other room. I was wrong. They took the fight here.

No one was answering my questions about Hebrews 10, so i thought i’d show them the respect of continuing the dialog with them about Matthew 5:48. I did to the point that i thought the three of us would agree to disagree so that we could move on to Hebrews 10, which seems a good passage to consider because it talks about the same subject, that is, how to become perfect.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(Hebrews 10:11-13)
You have never failed to be kind and respectful to me, Michael. Tell me, what do you think Hebrews 10 means? Specifically, what are the meaning of these words?

… because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

I noticed that Hebrews 5 came up in this discussion and that verse talks about Jesus being “perfected.” Now I am not going to pretend to know what that means, but if the same word is being used in Hebrews 10, than that verse may shed light on its meaning. What do you think “perfected” means? If you’ve answered that please direct me to the post.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Contarini]

Yes, i agree Guano. I think Edwin would agree, too.

Edwin: If you do agree with Guano, do you think the devil seeks to deceive people about the true intentions of the Father’s kids? Does he seek to slander them or help others see the truth about their intentions?

I don’t particularly agree with Guano’s way of putting it, but I deleted my response to him because it’s irrelevant, as are your questions here. If you think Satan is deceiving me about your intentions, then you should stop helping him. It has been explained to you repeatedly that your attempts to imitate Socrates are not conducive to real communication and are only irritating everyone you talk to. Blaming your own failures of communication on the devil is lazy.

I am not going to respond to you further until I see evidence that you are acting in good faith. At this point, I think that further discussion with you will only make me lose my temper and will not accomplish anything, because you are not interested in serious discussion and I am not interested in playing your bizarre word games.

One sign of good faith would be a different handle. The only sense in which you are like Socrates is that you are about half as annoying–which is pretty darn annoying!

Edwin

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tell me, what do you think Hebrews 10 means? Specifically, what are the meaning of these words?

… because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This seems to say that those who are being made holy have already been made perfect and will remain so forever.

However, someone much smarter than me said:

it’s the “will remain so forever” that is being used to modify the wrong thing. “Forever” isn’t modifying perfect; it’s modifying “made perfect.” In other words, Jesus, by his sacrifice, has done this act (making perfect the ones who are being made holy) forever.

Let’s say John Q. Inventor invented a machine that produced food out of thin air. Suppose you said “by this invention, John has given food forever to those who are eating.” What you are really trying to convey is the perpetual effect of what John did, not that the food that it gives is eternal. By his completed act, he has given a gift that keeps on giving. One could rephrase the passage as “by one sacrifice he has given perfection forever to those who are receiving perfection.”

IOW, Jesus will bring those who are being sanctified to perfection, and He will continue doing this forever,

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif *Jane:**Yes, i do recall that i asked if you wanted me to ask questions to understand what you believe or if you wanted to ask questions of me. I do appreciate your patience and honest.*No, once again, you misunderstood me. You said that I should be like St. Paul and should will to become all things to all people. My response about taking your own medicine meant that I would hope you would be as willing to be flexible and dynamic.

…

I was speaking of post #22:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif Jane:

*So, on to my questions, unless, of course, you would like to ask questions of me first. I do not wish to be rude and believe that a lady should go first, or at least choose whether or not she would like to do so.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane

As a Southern girl, I appreciate your chivalry. Truly, I do. However, in a forum such as this, I much prefer a more organic discussion. A back and forth sort of a thing. When questions are needed, I believe, they should be asked. In the meantime, I will do my best to answer any questions posed to me as promptly and as best I can.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This seems to say that those who are being made holy have already been made perfect and will remain so forever.

However, someone much smarter than me said:

Quote:

… One could rephrase the passage as “by one sacrifice he has given perfection forever to those who are receiving perfection.”
IOW, Jesus will bring those who are being sanctified to perfection, and He will continue doing this forever,

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Thank you, Randy, for bringing some peace to this storm! I was beginning to think this ship was going to sink and i’d never get the help for which i asked.

You have given me some explanation of what the passage might mean. What you are saying is that the words

… by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
actually mean

… by one sacrifice he has given perfection forever to those who are receiving perfection.

Please tell me, before someone throws me overboard, why “has made perfect” actually means “has given perfection”. I do not yet understand how these two statements mean the same thing.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Your question was:

My answer was:

What do you not understand?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t particularly agree with Guano’s way of putting it, but I deleted my response to him because it’s irrelevant, as are your questions here. If you think Satan is deceiving me about your intentions, then you should stop helping him. It has been explained to you repeatedly that your attempts to imitate Socrates are not conducive to real communication and are only irritating everyone you talk to. Blaming your own failures of communication on the devil is lazy. …

Edwin:

Do you believe Catholics should obey Mary who advised those listening to Jesus to “do whatever he tells you”?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I noticed that Hebrews 5 came up in this discussion and that verse talks about Jesus being “perfected.” Now I am not going to pretend to know what that means, but if the same word is being used in Hebrews 10, than that verse may shed light on its meaning. What do you think “perfected” means? If you’ve answered that please direct me to the post.

God Bless,
Michael

Thanks, Michael. As Jane said, it is exactly the same Greek word in both chapters of Hebrews, which is the word teleioo. From what i have been told, Greek words take on different meanings depending on the context in which they are used, but i’m not sure if this makes it any clearer. How Jesus, who was perfect, could be perfected is more a mystery to me than how a Catholic who is not perfect can be viewed as such by God.

Practically, you and i sin every day, Michael. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There are not only sins of word and deed, but sins of thought, to boot! How we can be called perfect in Hebrews 10 when we are clearly not perfect is what i am asking.

Practically, Jesus never sinned. In every thought, word and deed He always did what is good, righteous, loving and true. He was never guilty of even one sin of commission or omission. How the one who was and is perfect could be referred to as being perfected is even more a mystery.

I don’t know if i shall find the answer, but i’m not going to stop trying!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you, Randy, for bringing some peace to this storm! I was beginning to think this ship was going to sink and i’d never get the help for which i asked.

You have given me some explanation of what the passage might mean. What you are saying is that the words

… by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. actually mean

… by one sacrifice he has given perfection forever to those who are receiving perfection.Please tell me, before someone throws me overboard, why “has made perfect” actually means “has given perfection”. I do not yet understand how these two statements mean the same thing.

Soc-

I think I’m actually saying the opposite.

The passage says that Jesus will be involved in the activity of perfecting those who are being sanctified forever.

“Forever” does not refer to the believers…it refers to how long Jesus is working on them.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc-

I think I’m actually saying the opposite.

The passage says that Jesus will be involved in the activity of perfecting those who are being sanctified forever.

“Forever” does not refer to the believers…it refers to how long Jesus is working on them.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

OK. Thank you. I think i’m beginning to understand. Let me try again (i’ll figure it out eventually)!

I think you are saying that this

… by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

actually means this

… by one sacrifice he is forever making perfect those who are being made perfect.

Pleases tell me if this is correct, RC.

 

[Randy_Carson]

OK. Thank you. I think i’m beginning to understand. Let me try again (i’ll figure it out eventually)!

I think you are saying that this

… by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

actually means this

… by one sacrifice he is forever making perfect those who are being made perfect.

Pleases tell me if this is correct, RC.

Possibly.

14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (NIV)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (RSV)

These two translations offer different views…one says “are being made holy” while the other says “are sanctified”.

I think a check of the Greek tenses is in order…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Possibly.

14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (NIV)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (RSV)

These two translations offer different views…one says “are being made holy” while the other says “are sanctified”.

I think a check of the Greek tenses is in order…

Well, i don’t think we need to give up on understanding the English translations of the text because we do not know Greek, do you?

If we look at the two translations you cited, they both are similar, for

by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever means the same as

by a single offering he has perfected for all timewhich i believe you will agree. Whether you use the word forever or the words for all time, the meaning of the passage does not change. However, if you change the order of the words, the meaning of the passage does change. What you are proposing is that the words mean this

by one sacrifice he is forever making perfectwhich does not mean the same at all, i think. Let me give an example and you can tell me if you agree:

My wife decides to cook my favorite meal, which is shrimp gumbo. The sweet aroma draws me to the kitchen and i ask if i can have a bowl. “No,” she says, “i’m still making it.” Several minutes later i stop by the kitchen again with a bowl in my hand and a hungry expression on my face asking if it is ready.“No,” she says, “i’m still making it.” Several minutes later she calls me to the kitchen and gives me a bowl of the delicious soup. I gobble it down. My son walks into the room and asks if the soup is done and i say, "Yes, your mom has made the perfect soup; have some!"Now to me it seemed she was taking an eternity to make the soup. It seemed as though she was forever making it! Indeed, if it were possible for her to be forever making it then it would never be made. However, when it was finished, i told my son so, because i said his mother “has made the perfect soup”.

If my son were to ask if his mom finished making the soup and i said, “Yes, she is forever making it” i would be saying something absurd. For, a soup she is still cooking is not ready to eat; a soup she is making is not yet made.

My question, RC, if you will please try to answer it, is this: If the perfecter of our faith is always, without end (in this life and the immortal one to come), in the process of making us perfect, will we ever attain a state of perfection? If Jesus is forever making you or i perfect will we ever be perfect?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, i don’t think we need to give up on understanding the English translations of the text because we do not know Greek, do you?

If we look at the two translations you cited, they both are similar, for

by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever means the same as

by a single offering he has perfected for all timewhich i believe you will agree. Whether you use the word forever or the words for all time, the meaning of the passage does not change. However, if you change the order of the words, the meaning of the passage does change. What you are proposing is that the words mean this

by one sacrifice he is forever making perfectwhich does not mean the same at all, i think. Let me give an example and you can tell me if you agree:

My wife decides to cook my favorite meal, which is shrimp gumbo. The sweet aroma draws me to the kitchen and i ask if i can have a bowl. “No,” she says, “i’m still making it.” Several minutes later i stop by the kitchen again with a bowl in my hand and a hungry expression on my face asking if it is ready.“No,” she says, “i’m still making it.” Several minutes later she calls me to the kitchen and gives me a bowl of the delicious soup. I gobble it down. My son walks into the room and asks if the soup is done and i say, "Yes, your mom has made the perfect soup; have some!"Now to me it seemed she was taking an eternity to make the soup. It seemed as though she was forever making it! Indeed, if it were possible for her to be forever making it then it would never be made. However, when it was finished, i told my son so, because i said his mother “has made the perfect soup”.

If my son were to ask if his mom finished making the soup and i said, “Yes, she is forever making it” i would be saying something absurd. For, a soup she is still cooking is not ready to eat; a soup she is making is not yet made.

My question, RC, if you will please try to answer it, is this: If the perfecter of our faith is always, without end (in this life and the immortal one to come), in the process of making us perfect, will we ever attain a state of perfection? If Jesus is forever making you or i perfect will we ever be perfect?

He may finish with me this afternoon and begin work on you…

My point is not that Jesus works on each one of us individually forever (though honestly if God is infinite, it could take a long time for us to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ - would we ever reach the end of God?). Rather, it could well be that Paul is saying that God will be working on perfecting humans from the Adam and Eve on down to the last man, woman and child ever born.

However, there is the possibility of hyperbole. I might say, “My kids are always interupting my apologetics work on the Catholic Answers forum.” They aren’t “always” interrupting, sometimes they are outside playing. You give an example of this manner of speech in your soup example. To say, “It is raining cats and dogs” is another.

So, was Paul literally saying “forever” or not? I do not have an answer to that question at present.

Where I will not go is to view this passage as supporting the doctrine of eternal security or “once saved always saved” because this verse does not stand alone…it must be viewed withing the context of the entire revelation of God. Frankly, there are too many other passages that speak of the possibility that salvation can be lost to bank on this one verse alone.

If we agree to that approach, then I would have to point to James 2:24 and say, “Well, so much for sola fide.” I don’t think you would agree to that, so by the same logic I will not conclude that Heb 11:14 supports OSAS.

I will say that I am puzzled by the past tense of the following translation:

“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (RSV)

In this translation, those who are sanctified are perfected for all time. However, you probably agree that sanctification is a process, so who can be considered finally sanctified without possibility of loss of sanctification? Only those who have died.

Therefore, could it be that those who have died as believers have been sanctified in this life

and

been perfected in the life to come.

Sounds like purgatory to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

He may finish with me this afternoon and begin work on you…
…

LOL! He will still be working on me long after you have become perfect, i suspect.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…However, there is the possibility of hyperbole. I might say, “My kids are always interupting my apologetics work on the Catholic Answers forum.” They aren’t “always” interrupting, sometimes they are outside playing. You give an example of this manner of speech in your soup example. To say, “It is raining cats and dogs” is another.

So, was Paul literally saying “forever” or not? I do not have an answer to that question at present. …

Yes, there is hyperbole in the Bible, i agree. When Jesus said he was the door to heaven, i’m sure He did not mean His skin was made of wood and He had a door knob for a navel! Still, i do not see where such exaggeration is as obvious in the writing of the author of Hebrews. If he was using hyperbole, he was doing so in an extremely subtle way.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Where I will not go is to view this passage as supporting the doctrine of eternal security or “once saved always saved” because this verse does not stand alone…it must be viewed withing the context of the entire revelation of God. Frankly, there are too many other passages that speak of the possibility that salvation can be lost to bank on this one verse alone.

If we agree to that approach, then I would have to point to James 2:24 and say, “Well, so much for sola fide.” I don’t think you would agree to that, so by the same logic I will not conclude that Heb 11:14 supports OSAS. …

Well, from God’s point of view (who knows how everyone’s life will turn out) i imagine He knows who, once saved, will remain so and who, once saved, will later walk away.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…I will say that I am puzzled by the past tense of the following translation:

“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (RSV)

In this translation, those who are sanctified are perfected for all time. However, you probably agree that sanctification is a process, so who can be considered finally sanctified without possibility of loss of sanctification? Only those who have died.

Therefore, could it be that those who have died as believers have been sanctified in this life

and

been perfected in the life to come.

Sounds like purgatory to me.

Thoughts?

Yes, it is puzzling. I think the key to solving the mystery is to think that the author must mean something different when he writes(A) he has perfected

and when he writes(B) those who are sanctifiedThat is, (A) must not be the same as (B). The same must be true with other translations, such as the NIV, which states:

(a) by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

and(b) those who are being made holyThat is, (a) cannot be the same as (b). To say (a) is equal to (b) and to also say that Jesus has done (a) but is still in the process of doing (b) is absurd.

So (A) must mean something different from (B) and (a) must mean something different than (b). Does this sound reasonable?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think that if the author had written

… by one sacrifice he will in eternity make perfect forever those who are now being made holy.
this conversation would not be happening, because we would have both agreed, long before now, that it agrees with Roman Catholic theology. However, that’s not what he wrote. Instead, he wrote
… by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
So, i think that “has made perfect forever” must mean something different than “are being made holy”. The question is, how are the two phrases different?