Practically speaking, don't we need to "test drive the car before we buy it?"

[CaliLobo]

"Xantippe:

1. From the female perspective, we’d need more than a short “test drive” to figure out if we were going to have a good sexual relationship with a man…

Doesn’t this further rationalize sex before marriage?

Xantippe:

1. One can expect differing libidos to be more the rule than the exception, particularly after the initial honeymoon phase (whether premarital or marital)…
2. Non-religious men often gripe about how misleading their premarital experiences with their future wives were. “What food destroys female libido?” “Wedding cake.” A lot of men think that that it was all a show or a trap, which is not really fair, as people who didn’t have premarital sex also have ups and downs. In any case, as they say in the financial world, past performance does not guarantee future performance.
3. There are reasonable matters for concern. We don’t want to accidentally wind up with a gay husband, which could be one explanation for why a man finds it surprisingly easy to be chaste before marriage. Likewise, an entirely asexual spouse would be a bummer. It should be difficult for both parties to wait. If it isn’t hard, that should be worrisome. Another reasonable matter for concern is weird sexual tastes. If a person’s desires are suffiiciently “out there,” they’ll be hard to live with. Fortunately, a lot of unpleasant options are off the table for Catholics. Yay!

So issues regarding sex really are genuine matters for concern, ones that can make or break a marriage. I am especially concerned about the situations described in #5, and there are some really sad threads on CAF.

And paragraph 4 is a very common situation, one that causes many divorces. Yeah, upon marriage everything will change, and that is one reason why some people fear and avoid marriage altogether. I understand that life is very busy with children and all, but lack of sex is grounds for many breakups. How do we make sure that the sex doesn’t die?

CaliLobo,

Do you believe that it’s OK for a person to divorce their spouse because the spouse has become physically incapable of sex?

No. But I can see how impotence causes emotional and mental problems in a marriage, which can then cause divorce.

ProdglArchitect:

Nope, quite sane. Sex is not the key factor in a successful or happy marriage. My wife’s sex drive is -significantly- lower than mine, and her interests / desires differ greatly as well. Had we based our decision to marry on our “sexual compatibility” we would never have gotten married, and I would have lost the most amazing person I know, who brings me countless more joy than simple sexual pleasure can grant me. Additionally, despite the challenges that our differences present, our marriage is a strong, stable, loving one, and we both strive to care for the other person in all aspects of life. This means that sometimes I sacrifice and give up on my desires, and sometimes she sacrifices and has sex with me even when she doesn’t particularly feel like it. On those occasions, I make sure she doesn’t regret it This act of mutual self-sacrifice is the core of marriage, and it extends to sex along with every other aspect of life.

See, I couldn’t live with that, and honestly, I feel bad for your plight. A huge difference in sex drive is something I would want to know before going into a marriage. Many marriages fail because of a lack of this information beforehand. For me a marriage without much sex would be miserable. My sexual experiences are few and far between because I’ve lived a life of mostly temperance. As a result, I want to know that the one time in my life that I can have sex, I will have sex. To me, such a woman would, per se, NOT be the most amazing person I know, and I don’t think it’s lack of sacrifice and charity on my part for me to say that.

on_the_hill:

When a couple is discerning marriage, and are contemplating all the different aspects of what married life will mean to them as a couple, ought they also not explore the sexual? If they’re exploring household finances, family planning, careers, where to live, favorite upholstery patterns, wouldn’t sex have a place?

I’m getting a lot of similar-sounding replies, but can anyone help answer on_the_hill’s question? We evaluate each other in many other areas that change over time, and no one is saying it’s morally wrong to make those evaluations. So why can’t we include sexual compatibility to that list?

 

[CaliLobo]

BlueEyedLady:

What the OP is talking about is two people who are compatible, talking about marriage, needing to “try out” sex before committing. That just doesn’t happen. No serious couple looks at each other and says “We should really see if we like sex first”. It just doesn’t happen.

Of course couples aren’t awkward about it like that. What kind of couple, all of a sudden, comes to the realization that they haven’t had sex yet and says, “We should really see if we like sex first?”

The sex would’ve happened naturally a long time ago, don’t you think?

Again to point out the obvious, holding out until marriage is a conscious choice. My question is, exactly how wise is it?

 

[Xantippe]

Doesn’t this further rationalize sex before marriage?

The longer “test drive” has a tendency to lead to fatherless children, hurt feelings and poverty for everybody. That model has not been a great success on the national level.

So issues regarding sex really are genuine matters for concern, ones that can make or break a marriage. I am especially concerned about the situations described in #5, and there are some really sad threads on CAF.

**It’s worked out fine for us, but I realize that other people have more problems.

All in all, I think there’s a better case for avoiding marriage entirely (because of the uncertainties) than for attempting the “test drive.” As Mr. Heisenberg discovered, observation affects phenomena. **

And paragraph 4 is a very common situation, one that causes many divorces. Yeah, upon marriage everything will change, and that is one reason why some people fear and avoid marriage altogether. I understand that life is very busy with children and all, but lack of sex is grounds for many breakups. How do we make sure that the sex doesn’t die?

**It may–for a while. Or it may permanently–as when there’s some sort of very serious medical issue (for instance, treatment prostate cancer).

What I think that it’s worth remembering is that marriage isn’t a sex license, good for every day, day or night, with no black out dates. And I think that one should generally think in terms of one’s own obligations, rather than what marriage entitles one too. (Barring abuse, of course.) **

 

[Rau]

Of course the Bible says that sex outside of marriage is a sin.

But we know that sex is a major issue that can make or break a marriage. It is important for people to know what their partners like and don’t like in sex, and how much libido their partners have. We know that a marriage that is not open to life is also a sin, in Catholicism. We know that lack of sex, or bad sex, can ruin relationships and destroy marriages.

So practically speaking, despite what the Bible says, don’t people need to “test drive the car before they buy it,” in other words, have sex before marriage to test each other’s sexual compatibility? Isn’t it a foolish risk to not “test drive a car before buying it?” Wouldn’t it be a possible setup for failure to not have sex before marriage?

Let’s discuss.

It’s a high risk strategy Cali. Most men don’t well handle an objective assessment of their equipment and skill. Cars run very well these days right out of the showroom. People, not so much.

 

[Rau]

An overreaction. My whole original post was about a couple considering marriage. Shouldn’t a couple have sex before marriage to understand their sexual compatibility, to prevent disaster later on??

I wonder how much more successful marriages are/would be on account of a bit of mutual test driving with pre-marital sex? Somehow, I just don’t think that’s going to move the needle.

 

[EasterJoy]

Let us get back to the original question

…We know that lack of sex, or bad sex, can ruin relationships and destroy marriages.

So practically speaking, despite what the Bible says, don’t people need to “test drive the car before they buy it,” in other words, have sex before marriage to test each other’s sexual compatibility?..

Let’s discuss.

The quick answer is this: anything you do to indulge a desire to hedge your bets by taking this measure or that as a way of trying to ensure the impossible goal of the “can’t fail sure thing” marriage, whether it is about sex or making enough money to never have financial problems or marrying an orphan so you can’t have in-law problems or what have you, is more likely to weaken your marriage and lower the degree of mutual trust than simply saying, “I don’t know what is coming, it is probably both better or worse than I can imagine right now, but I am in this for the long haul.” Learn courage, learn fidelity, value it in your friendships and affections, then marry someone of a like mind and Just Do It.

Make the vows, mean them, and have the inner wherewithal to keep them:
I, Christian, take you, Faith, to be my wife.
I promise to be true to you
in good times and in bad,
in sickness and in health.
I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

If you want a practical way to make yourself compatible with married life, that is it.

 

[Rau]

… Bad sex doesn’t destroy marriages- if you have a good marriage, you’re not going to have bad sex. But if you have a bad marriage to begin with, or other issues going on, that is going to affect your sex life.

Exactly right. Low libido on the part of one partner in the marriage, say the woman, does not mean sex is rationed to the barely tolerable level! It means the woman may not experience physical desire at regular intervals, but given she loves her husband she wants to be close to him and in his arms. She will happily and freely give of herself more in line with his desires. And low libido does not prevent her enjoying the experience. And the husband will love his wife more for her sensitivity to his needs. In a healthy marriage, it is a virtuous circle. When this isn’t the case, it is not the sex that is at the heart of the problem.

 

[Rau]

… I would not have a serious relationship with someone, much less marry them, if they wouldn’t have sex before marriage. I will do my best to raise my children to believe the same…

So, if your daughter one day comes to you and says “Mom, I really like [bf] but he wants to have sex with me, and I do love him heaps, but I really feel that’s something I’d rather keep for marriage”. What would you say?

What if your son came to you disheartened that the love of his life is resisting sexual advances and feels that she too would like to wait for marriage?

Would you advise your daughter to have sex if she really loves him, and your son to drop the girl if she continues to refuse?

 

[oneofmany]

Well when people have sex the women thinks, “oh good we are having sex, he will surely ask me to marry him” and he thinks, “oh good, we are having sex, now we won’t need to get married, at least not for a long time.”

Also, ask older married couples. Libido ebbs and wains throughout marriage. You may think she is hot now but just wait until you get older. Your libido may also slow down to a crawl. If that is the main reason you are getting married than don’t do it since you will be in for a sad bit of reality.

 

[Rau]

…I won’t be a virgin when I’m married, but I don’t see why that matters. If people believe I sinned, then they should forgive me the way Jesus has forgiven me.

forgiveness requires contrition and a commitment not to sin again. Is that where you and Jesus are at Cali? Reading your posts, I was not so sure??

 

[thewanderer]

See, I couldn’t live with that, and honestly, I feel bad for your plight. A huge difference in sex drive is something I would want to know before going into a marriage. Many marriages fail because of a lack of this information beforehand. For me a marriage without much sex would be miserable. My sexual experiences are few and far between because I’ve lived a life of mostly temperance. ** As a result, I want to know that the one time in my life that I can have sex, I will have sex. To me, such a woman would, per se, NOT be the most amazing person I know, ** and I don’t think it’s lack of sacrifice and charity on my part for me to say that.

Two things,

1. It sounds to me as though you are very conflicted. You claim that despite Church teaching you are morally able to have sex outside of marriage, the reason you are morally able to have sex outside marriage? To make sure that the only time you are morally allowed to have sex you can have as much of it as you want whenever you want it. But it can’t be both ways, it either is moral or it isn’t, if it isn’t, then your argument is clearly false. If it is moral then your argument falls apart because it relies on the notion that sex outside marriage is immoral. In other words, it sounds very much like an attempt to rationalize something you know is wrong.
2. You don’t want a wife, you want a sex partner. They are very different things. It is horribly demeaning to speak about choosing a wife the way you have because being a wife is so much more than just being a sex partner. So really, you don’t want to get married, you just want sex and are looking for a way to get it morally. My advice to you? Don’t get married if you don’t want a wife. Its not fair to either of you and will only result in problems down the road. Seeing as all you want is a sex partner you should probably drop the idea ofarriage for the time being. Marriage is far more and involves a far greater commitment than just sex.

 

[Rau]

I think the “test drive the car” allegory (or is it a metaphor?) isn’t exactly equating people to soulless machines. So I think we gotta look past that shorthand (regardless of its being inapt) to get to the real question. When a couple is discerning marriage, and are contemplating all the different aspects of what married life will mean to them as a couple, ought they also not explore the sexual? If they’re exploring household finances, family planning, careers, where to live, favorite upholstery patterns, wouldn’t sex have a place?

I’m just trying to rephrase the question in a more suitable way for discussion.

Exploring the sexual need not mean “have sex”. Just as exploring issues of finance and family planning and upholstery does not required that one actually set up house and give it all a go.

 

[on_the_hill]

Bad sex doesn’t destroy marriages- if you have a good marriage, you’re not going to have bad sex. But if you have a bad marriage to begin with, or other issues going on, that is going to affect your sex life.

I agree and disagree. A bad marriage probably leads to bad sex. But a good marriage doesn’t necessarily mean good sex. My wife and I have a nearly sexless marriage. She has had some physical changes and also essentially has no libido.

Really had nothing to do with pre-marital sex, but just thought I’d toss that in.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s a high risk strategy Cali. Most men don’t well handle an objective assessment of their equipment and skill. Cars run very well these days right out of the showroom. People, not so much.

There’s a substantial risk of damaging the car on test drives and there’s no way to get insurance to cover possible losses–you could be spending a substantial sum for the next 20 years to cover one fender bender that happened during a “test drive.”

Also, the previous uninsured accidents on test drives may preclude you being allowed to take more test drives with nice cars.

Also, higher end dealerships won’t hand out keys to just anybody and lot of nicer cars will refuse to be test driven.

(See, that’s part of where the analogy breaks down–the other person may not wish to be treated to the East German skating judge rating system for sex.)

Again, your strategy encourages the car to “fake” it, which may cause unforeseen problems in your marital sex life down the road. If the car doesn’t actually like it, but has been politely faking ecstasy for your sake, you’re in for a heap of trouble when she decides to just do what she’s actually been feeling–namely lie back and think of England.

 

[Xantippe]

Let us get back to the original question

The quick answer is this: anything you do to indulge a desire to hedge your bets by taking this measure or that as a way of trying to ensure the impossible goal of the “can’t fail sure thing” marriage, whether it is about sex or making enough money to never have financial problems or marrying an orphan so you can’t have in-law problems or what have you, is more likely to weaken your marriage and lower the degree of mutual trust than simply saying, “I don’t know what is coming, it is probably both better or worse than I can imagine right now, but I am in this for the long haul.” Learn courage, learn fidelity, value it in your friendships and affections, then marry someone of a like mind and Just Do It.

Make the vows, mean them, and have the inner wherewithal to keep them:
I, Christian, take you, Faith, to be my wife.
I promise to be true to you
in good times and in bad,
in sickness and in health.
I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

If you want a practical way to make yourself compatible with married life, that is it.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

Two things,

1. It sounds to me as though you are very conflicted. You claim that despite Church teaching you are morally able to have sex outside of marriage, the reason you are morally able to have sex outside marriage? To make sure that the only time you are morally allowed to have sex you can have as much of it as you want whenever you want it. But it can’t be both ways, it either is moral or it isn’t, if it isn’t, then your argument is clearly false. If it is moral then your argument falls apart because it relies on the notion that sex outside marriage is immoral. In other words, it sounds very much like an attempt to rationalize something you know is wrong.
2. You don’t want a wife, you want a sex partner. They are very different things. It is horribly demeaning to speak about choosing a wife the way you have because being a wife is so much more than just being a sex partner. So really, you don’t want to get married, you just want sex and are looking for a way to get it morally. My advice to you? Don’t get married if you don’t want a wife. Its not fair to either of you and will only result in problems down the road. Seeing as all you want is a sex partner you should probably drop the idea ofarriage for the time being. Marriage is far more and involves a far greater commitment than just sex.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

Exploring the sexual need not mean “have sex”. Just as exploring issues of finance and family planning and upholstery does not required that one actually set up house and give it all a go.

Exactly. Exploring finances does not mean setting up a joint account, and one can do a lot of research before actually buying a house.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No. But I can see how impotence causes emotional and mental problems in a marriage, which can then cause divorce.

Nothing causes divorce except spouses’ decisions to divorce. It is a personal failing to say “for better or worse”, and then jump ship when it gets worse. It’s an ordinary human failing, but it is nonetheless a failing.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Clueless sex (I’m assuming you mean novice, unpracticed, first-timer sex) can be stupid, and awkward, and embarrassing, but the point of keeping it for marriage is that it’s something that you and your spouse will go through together.

I’d rather not in a sense that I end up knowing no more than the girl who shies away from the topic like it was 1859. I learned about sex from an encyclopedia of all things! It was the first time I have ever realized that my own intelligence was being insulted.

Never again. Ignorance may be a bliss but not for me.

Most of my friends couldn’t believe I chose to wait, and it was exceptionally difficult to put up with the poking and prodding that did come from that decision. Fast forward a few years and I see my relationships in contrast to theirs, and I couldn’t be happier with my decision; the exclusivity and complete gift of the self; no baggage, no history, not wondering and comparing, just each other, wholly and completely; there’s nothing else like it.

Look if it’s your thing, then go right ahead. For me, I’d rather just burn the entire competition. When you’re often depicted on the losing end of the game, when you’re considered a hopeless cause despite your assets, you wouldn’t want to start afresh. You’d want to get back. You’d want to curse the religious conviction that forged your hesitation and emasculated your will. You’d want to turn this game on its head and leave everyone appalled as you finally snatch the girl away, in spite of the false security inspired by its insignificant rules.

I for one would love to be above this game. Most of you however, see it in the simplistic avoidance of playing it. Nope, not for me.

I find myself called to break it.

See the logic? The same goes with sex. You don’t go around looking for a good sex partner, that logic is all mixed up. You go around and find someone who loves you, and out of LOVE that person should move heaven and earth to make love with you and to have a healthy and happy sex life.

People do lots of things for love and romance but that doesn’t necessarily include having zero stock knowledge of sex before getting married. Heck, the opposite is just as often the case. You may not do any actual ‘test driving’ but you consult men’s/women’s magazines, ask advice from players, and read up on all the tricks to win oh fair lady’s heart.

A lack of an actual test-run doesn’t eliminate the advantage of studying how to drive.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

People do lots of things for love and romance but that doesn’t necessarily include having zero stock knowledge of sex before getting married. Heck, the opposite is just as often the case. You may not do any actual ‘test driving’ but you consult men’s/women’s magazines, ask advice from players, and read up on all the tricks to win oh fair lady’s heart.

A lack of an actual test-run doesn’t eliminate the advantage of studying how to drive.

That’s pretty funny. I’d think that if all these players and authors know which tricks please your lady, you might want to look for a different lady.