Practically speaking, don't we need to "test drive the car before we buy it?"

[Lost_Wanderer]

That’s pretty funny. I’d think that if all these players and authors know which tricks please your lady, you might want to look for a different lady.

I find it funny that the people who tell me to look for a different lady gripe like bitter old men who think life is only about eating your brussell sprouts and hope they reach heaven soon. The term sour grapes doesn’t do this sort of attitude justice.

I should know… because I used to think like that.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I find it funny that the people who tell me to look for a different lady gripe like bitter old men who think life is only about eating your brussell sprouts and hope they reach heaven soon. The term sour grapes doesn’t do this sort of attitude justice.

I should know… because I used to think like that.

If you think a book, magazine or “player” is going to be able to tell you how to make a woman you’re interested in happy, you’re delusional. I bought a book once. The end result was my wife saying, “Ow, quit it! What’s wrong with your head?” Women don’t come with an owner’s manual. The only way to find out what makes her happy is to talk to her. It’s a learning process, and it’s one of the best things about coming into a marriage with no experience or preconceived notions.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I bought a book once. The end result was my wife saying, “Ow, quit it! What’s wrong with your head?” Women don’t come with an owner’s manual. The only way to find out what makes her happy is to talk to her. It’s a learning process, and it’s one of the best things about coming into a marriage with no experience or preconceived notions.

I did the complete opposite approach. I thought I could handle it. I thought had it figured out. I didn’t listen to the advice of my peers. I thought I was being real cool and Catholic like for taking it slow. (“Oh yeah, look at me I’m not taking dating advice cuz that’s sooo secular-trendy.”)

Then she wounds up picked by some ogre-faced goon whose half-baked flirting did way more than my little conservative approach hoped to accomplish.

Do not tell me to find someone else. I lost because I had such a sissy, faux-hipster, sour-grapes mentality. Never again will I believe in a God who thinks and acts like a medieval matchmaker.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I did the complete opposite approach. I thought I could handle it. I thought had it figured out. I didn’t listen to the advice of my peers. I thought I was being real cool and Catholic like for taking it slow. (“Oh yeah, look at me I’m not taking dating advice cuz that’s sooo secular-trendy.”)

Then she wounds up picked by some ogre-faced goon whose half-baked flirting did way more than my little conservative approach hoped to accomplish.

Do not tell me to find someone else. I lost because I had such a sissy, faux-hipster, sour-grapes mentality. Never again will I believe in a God who thinks and acts like a medieval matchmaker.

I must have missed the section of the Catechism that said Catholics had to take a slow, ineffectual approach to dating. I proposed to my wife less than four months after we started dating. There’s nothing wrong with being confident and assertive.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

There’s nothing wrong with being confident and assertive.

Yeah well I still blame the counter-culture attitude of conservative Catholicism all the same. It’s the only thing that could explain for why I shunned any and all advice on self-improvement cuz it all came from New Age and secular self-help literature.

Heck, you tell me not to consult those same players and dating books. But when in fact, had I did, I wouldn’t be having such a desperate time crawling out of this drama-rama hole I’m now in!

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Yeah well I still blame the counter-culture attitude of conservative Catholicism all the same. It’s the only thing that could explain for why I shunned any and all advice on self-improvement cuz it all came from New Age and secular self-help literature.

Heck, you tell me not to consult those same players and dating books. But when in fact, had I did, I wouldn’t be having such a desperate time crawling out of this drama-rama hole I’m now in!

That’s funny. I was actually just like you many, many moons ago, except I picked scapegoats other than my Catholicism.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That’s funny. I was actually just like you many, many moons ago, except I picked scapegoats other than my Catholicism.

Scapegoats? I’m only doing what the religion itself says. I had known it by its fruits. Insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results. The fact that you acknowledge you’re on the opposite end goes to show I’m on the right direction for a more compatible solution.: thumbsup:

 

[Rau]

Yeah well I still blame the counter-culture attitude of conservative Catholicism all the same…

Now that you know the source of the problem, and I assume taken corrective action, is everything on track and running well now? Have you found the happiness you’re looking for?

 

[Xantippe]

Now that you know the source of the problem, and I assume taken corrective action, is everything on track and running well now? Have you found the happiness you’re looking for?

Yes. Or to quote Dr. Phil, “How’s that working for you?”

 

[PaulinVA]

WOW.

I thought this thread was about test driving cars, so I hadn’t read it!

I especially like the unmarried people telling married people about successful marriages and sexual compatibility.

I know you guys are hurting and trying to navigate your way through this, but come on. You are going to marry a person. You are going to hold her hair out of the toilet when she is throwing up from morning sickness. She is going to help you get home all groggy and bleeding after having your wisdom teeth out. You will laugh together, cry together, build a family together.

The sex part is important, but it’s not as important as you guys make it out to be.

 

[Xantippe]

Heck, the opposite is just as often the case. You may not do any actual ‘test driving’ but you consult men’s/women’s magazines, ask advice from players, and read up on all the tricks to win oh fair lady’s heart.

I used to read the women’s magazines when I was an impressionable young thing but stopped years ago, so I’ve never really read them with the benefit of experience.
However, from what I hear from my reading of secular dating blogs, a lot of Cosmo’s sex advice is 1) impractical or 2) dangerous.

You can see examples of these critiques by googling “Cosmocking.” I especially enjoyed a criticism of Cosmo’s advice to have a pizza picnic in bed with your sweetie: "Because I see this cute little idea for Manic Pixie Dream Girl antics, and all I can think is “oh jeez, that is never washing out.” Too true!

pervocracy.blogspot.com/2013/02/cosmocking-march-13.html

 

[Xantippe]

I especially like the unmarried people telling married people about successful marriages and sexual compatibility.

Yes.

Lost Wanderer–I guarantee you that every single “conservative Catholic” married person you’ve argued with on this thread is having way more fun than you.

 

[on_the_hill]

WOW.

I thought this thread was about test driving cars, so I hadn’t read it!

I especially like the unmarried people telling married people about successful marriages and sexual compatibility.

I know you guys are hurting and trying to navigate your way through this, but come on. You are going to marry a person. You are going to hold her hair out of the toilet when she is throwing up from morning sickness. She is going to help you get home all groggy and bleeding after having your wisdom teeth out. You will laugh together, cry together, build a family together.

The sex part is important, but it’s not as important as you guys make it out to be.

 

[thewanderer]

Scapegoats? I’m only doing what the religion itself says. I had known it by its fruits. Insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results. The fact that you acknowledge you’re on the opposite end goes to show I’m on the right direction for a more compatible solution.: thumbsup:

If you want to claim that Catholicism tells us to be non-confident and non-assertive when dating please show us the official document where the Church teaches this. (Hint: you can’t because it doesn’t exist) you are overreacting against the wrong people and bouncing from one extreme to another will only hurt you in the end.

Seriously, if any guy ever tried to “play” me they would be gone in an instant. But what do I know, I’m just happily married to a wonderful man who won me over by his honest sincere self rather than by using players tricks to try and manipulate my emotions.

 

[thewanderer]

If you ou want to claim that Catholicism tells us to be non-confixent and nonassertive when dating please show us the official document where the Church teaches this. (Hint: you can’t because it doesn’t exist) you are overreacting against the wrong people and bouncing from one extreme to another will only hurt you in the end

. Seriously, if any guy ever tried to “play” me they would be gone in an instant. But what do I know, I’m just happily married to a wonderful man who won me over by his honest sincere self rather than by using players tricks to try and manipulate my emotions.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Not to be argumentative, but is there objective research to support this? I’m curious about it.

Ask and ye shall receive. Two separate papers take this on. The original papers are unfortunately behind paywalls, but there is very good discussion of them at The Social Pathologist blog:

Sexual Partner Divorce Risk The paper discussed was published in 2004.

Sexual History Divorce Risk II The paper discussed was published in 2011.

The comment sections in both posts are best ignored. Just focus on the data that the Social Pathologist draws out of the papers. While the study is aimed at women, I strongly believe that the same concerns apply to men, though perhaps not as much as for women.

So what does this mean for us Catholics?

First, regardless of their position on premarital sex, most everyone who has had sex knows how much mental and spiritual bonding can take place over the physical experience. The problem is that this bonding is reduced to some extent for every additional partner taken on. Hence the risk is that one may not bond sexually as well to their spouse as they did to one or more previous sexual partners. In which context, the increased risk of divorce alluded in the Social Pathologist articles above comes with the increase in the number of premarital partners other than one’s spouse. While the case is being made for the higher divorce risk in marrying a woman with 5 or more sexual partners before their husbands, the Pathologist does state that a good percentage of these women are still married so it is possible to overcome this obstacle to marriage longevity. One can quibble over the actual numbers, but my central point is that the risk is there on both sides; it is definitely non-zero and must be included in the man and the woman vetting each other for marriage.

The ancients understood this, the Bible understands this, many non-Christian cultures understand this. Genesis speaks of this, as does Paul. This is the practical reason virginity was so highly valued. This is why chaperones used to be required whenever young men and young women got together, otherwise their temptations were just too great to be overcome. The old wisdom was tossed by the wayside by modern day culture and should not have been. We are paying the price for that.

The phenomenon of spouses cheating with old flames contacted over Facebook is real and is traceable to this bonding issue.

Second, those Catholics among us who have fallen into sexual sin have access to the sacrament of reconciliation through which we can find God’s forgiveness for what we did. But that spiritual forgiveness and repentance does not rid us of the need to deal with at least one or more of the possible temporal consequences of our sexual sins: decreased ability to bond sexually to a spouse, sexually transmitted diseases, abortion, birth control, decreased social status, cuckolding and questionable paternity, addiction to porn, etc. All of which can have negative effects on a subsequent marriage and must be worked through if present.

None of this is to say that successful marriage isn’t possible under these conditions, it is just to say the negative effects present in one’s life must be handled in order for the marriage to succeed. Those who have posted on this thread to say they’ve succeeded in spite of their sins are to be commended for their ability to put their sins and its consequences behind them.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Yes.

Lost Wanderer–I guarantee you that every single “conservative Catholic” married person you’ve argued with on this thread is having way more fun than you.

Anyone can make that claim over the internet. Here, I’ll show you!

Now that you know the source of the problem, and I assume taken corrective action, is everything on track and running well now? Have you found the happiness you’re looking for?

Yes. Or to quote Dr. Phil, “How’s that working for you?”

I may not be out of the hole but I’ve made far more progress in personal happiness compared to when I kept listening on these so-called ‘happy married Catholics.’

I used to read the women’s magazines when I was an impressionable young thing but stopped years ago, so I’ve never really read them with the benefit of experience.
However, from what I hear from my reading of secular dating blogs, a lot of Cosmo’s sex advice is 1) impractical or 2) dangerous.

You can see examples of these critiques by googling “Cosmocking.” I especially enjoyed a criticism of Cosmo’s advice to have a pizza picnic in bed with your sweetie: "Because I see this cute little idea for Manic Pixie Dream Girl antics, and all I can think is “oh jeez, that is never washing out.” Too true!

pervocracy.blogspot.com/2013/02/cosmocking-march-13.html

Right, and Cosmo is representative of all global knowledge on the ridiculously subjective, unstable ‘field’ that is dating. For men.

Can I laugh now?

If you want to claim that Catholicism tells us to be non-confident and non-assertive when dating please show us the official document where the Church teaches this. (Hint: you can’t because it doesn’t exist) you are overreacting against the wrong people and bouncing from one extreme to another will only hurt you in the end.

No amount of pain is comparable to the pain I already had to go through when it came to being honest with myself. Like the topic of premarital sex, there’s too much of a counter-cultural attitude permeating this religion that it’s the advice that’s usually jumping to an extreme, not the people trying to sort this game out.

My demotion of my faith is a personal decision. Things worked out for you but that’s your life. Not mine. The day I start giving stock to dating advice bearing the Catholic label is the day it magically solves my remaining problems.

But what do I know, I’m just happily married to a wonderful man who won me over by his honest sincere self rather than by using players tricks to try and manipulate my emotions.

Hmmff… right, like that never made it to the player’s handbook.

 

[Rau]

I may not be out of the hole but I’ve made far more progress…

What are you doing now that you were not doing before? What difference is it making?

 

[Xantippe]

Anyone can make that claim over the internet. Here, I’ll show you!

**I could tell you how enjoyable I find the physical side of married life, but 1) it would be immodest and 2) you wouldn’t believe me.

And you know what, I’m not even very good looking.**

Right, and Cosmo is representative of all global knowledge on the ridiculously subjective, unstable ‘field’ that is dating. For men.

Can I laugh now?

**You did mention women’s magazines, and Cosmo is pretty much the paradigmatic single women’s magazine, particularly for sex advice. I haven’t read men’s magazines, but I assume that the articles are of similar quality. Remember, those articles are written by poor ink-stained wretches who need to turn them out very rapidly in order to keep their lights on, so they haven’t been either lab or field tested for safety and efficacy.
**

No amount of pain is comparable to the pain I already had to go through when it came to being honest with myself. Like the topic of premarital sex, there’s too much of a counter-cultural attitude permeating this religion that it’s the advice that’s usually jumping to an extreme, not the people trying to sort this game out.

**Eh, have a look at our advice to single guys. It’s pretty middle of the road.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=900330**

I started that thread about two weeks ago.

My demotion of my faith is a personal decision. Things worked out for you but that’s your life. Not mine. The day I start giving stock to dating advice bearing the Catholic label is the day it magically solves my remaining problems.

You don’t need to buy Catholic Cheerios and Catholic butter and Catholic eggs and Catholic printer paper. Some advice is good no matter what label is on it.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What are you doing now that you were not doing before? What difference is it making?

For starters:

I have more confidence.
I don’t let rejection, subtle or overt, discourage me.
I got myself a decent wing man.
I’ve got more guts to keep trying.
I’m more likely to play than to be played.
I worry less about making ‘mistakes.’
I see a finer balance between when to flirt and when to be nice.

All of this simply because I ditched a guilt-ridden, cautious approach that worried too much about what other people (along with certain entities above and below) thought.

Much like sex, I’m afraid resources bearing the Catholic label just didn’t teach me as effectively.