Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[benedictgal]

Actually keyboard players and competent drummers are the hardest positions to fill in my area and they demand the highest price for their services. It is no wonder that most P&W music is guitar driven and gospel music is losing its traditional Hammond B3 organ sound. We make do with the skill level of the weakest link on the team. Or dispence with a traditional voicing to bring the total package to a higher level. The skill level of those willing to serve effects everything from the key we play in to the rythmn and phrasing of a song. It makes perfect sense to me that the Catholic Curches are suffering a shortage of organist, for the most part that instrument is only used in church. So who brings those skills?

The key is are people willing to put their minds to it? With less childhood music education there is a smaller base of musicians to call upon. While you can accept a less professional sound will your congregation or will music cause them to drift somewhere else?

In the Catholic Church is it acceptable that a Catholic not go to his local church but the Catholic Church down the road because the Priest is a better speaker or the music ministry has a higher musicianship level?

We used to be tied to geographic locations, but, that restriction no longer exists. Ideally, if all things were considered equal, the Mass should be celebrated in the same manner every place. There are some variables such as language that factor into whether or not one is going to their neighborhood parish or, say, the Cathedral, which is in downtown.

In my area, the two downtown parishes have members who do not live in the geographic region because progress led to the tearing down of many of the neighborhoods. In the case of the Cathedral, the extension of IH-35 cut down a lot of houses and forced people to move. However, many families have returned.

The language issue comes to play in South Texas becasue of the predominance of the Mexican culture. There are churches that provide mostly Spanish-language liturgies. Conversely, there are those who mostly serve predominantly English-speaking Catholics (while still offering at least one Mass in Spanish). Even in Spanish-language Masses, the music has deteroriated. Some have employed using Tejano or conjunto (bar sounding) genres that have no place at all in the Holy Sacrifice. Thankfully, the Cathedral had the good sense to finally get rid of the Mariachi Mass. The music was horrendous and, often, the Mariachis had no idea about the liturgical seasons and would play music that was not appropriate at all for Advent and Lent. It was too much of a show and had very little to no substance whatsoever.

I know that you’ve mentioned keyboards and bass players. These musicians wouldn’t be at all suitable for the Mass becasue of the degree of solemnity, beauty and majesty that is intrinsic in the Holy Sacrifice. Even the Church documents written just after the Second Vatican Council say as much. While not calling these intruments out by name, the documents note that anything that is mostly for secular use doesn’t belong in the liturgy.

Pope Paul VI observed that not everything is fit to cross the threshhold, as far as music in the liturgy is concerned.

 

[snhs]

Actually keyboard players and competent drummers are the hardest positions to fill in my area and they demand the highest price for their services. It is no wonder that most P&W music is guitar driven and gospel music is losing its traditional Hammond B3 organ sound. We make do with the skill level of the weakest link on the team. Or dispence with a traditional voicing to bring the total package to a higher level. The skill level of those willing to serve effects everything from the key we play in to the rythmn and phrasing of a song. It makes perfect sense to me that the Catholic Curches are suffering a shortage of organist, for the most part that instrument is only used in church. So who brings those skills?

…

In the Catholic Church is it acceptable that a Catholic not go to his local church but the Catholic Church down the road because the Priest is a better speaker or the music ministry has a higher musicianship level?

What traditional Catholic hymns require drums? Hence if we forget about the drummers and the guitar players, normally at least two or three, you can afford to find a decent organist/pianist, pay them more (if need be) than you’d otherwise be able to if you had the whole band tagging along and still make a saving on it. Not only does it make sense financially it also makes sense from a logistics point of view, i.e. 1/2 people to organise rather than however many are in the band and their instruments/set up/tune up, only need to get organ music, no transposition/additional rearranging required. And since we’d only have those people’s skill level to worry about rather than 4 or 5 people in a band we’re probably going to end up with a higher overall quality anyway, complete with the instrument which has been most prevalent over the last few centuries in Church music rather than the guitar which seeped in with the 60s.

I’m fairly certain it is actually, particularly if the Homily were doctrinally in error. As Catholics we should be able to attend the Mass which conforms to the standards the Church has set, if that means we have to go to St Y’s rather than St X’s to avoid the ‘praise team’ or whatever other innovation then it’s perfectly acceptable to do so.

 

[Cat]

Why is it that people seem to think they should be payed for helping at Mass? If you are helping the Church for your own benefit, profit or self aggrandisement then I’d respectfully suggest that you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

If you want to know what the problems in the Church are they begin and end with such motivations. Remember that Our Lord said “Do not store up riches for yourselves here on earth, where moths and rust destroy, and robbers break in and steal. 20 Instead, store up riches for yourselves in heaven where moths and rust cannot destroy, and robbers cannot break in and steal. 21 For your heart will always be where your riches are”.

I don’t think you don’t quite understand how things work in the U.S.

The reason that musicians are paid for Mass is that this is how they make their living–music. There is nothing ungodly about wanting to be paid for doing your job.

The Bible says that a minister deserves to be paid.

I Corinthians 9 talks about wages and workers in the Church. Verse 14 says, “So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.”

Also read I Timothy 5: 17 and 18.

One complicating factor in the U.S. is that many professional musicians are often in a union, and if they’re not in the union, they respect the union. We don’t want to undercharge because this makes it difficult for other musicians who are making a living from their music. (It’s called “scab” labor in the U.S.–someone who is willing to do the work for a lot less than the work is worth.)

I often volunteer to play for Masses at my own parishes, but at other parishes, I am paid and so are all the other musicians. It’s not a lot, but it pays for my music. BTW, it’s not easy to find good piano arrangements of Catholic hymns to play for preludes, in case some of you grouse about why I always play those “Protestant” hymns for preludes.

Also, keep in mind that a musician will often play at several Masses in several different parishes on the weekends. So for us, these Masses are’t just worshipping the Lord and receiving Holy Communion. They’re work. I enjoy it, but it’s still work. There’s pressure to pay attention and keep an eye on things and make sure that the music is ready and that the mike is on, and a lot of other little details. And of course, if I’m playing at Mass, I’m not home cooking my Sunday dinner, or sleeping, or watching the game, or spending time with my husband and family.

snhs, I would suggest not continuing this discussion. Musicians in the U.S. are usually paid for work in church, both Protestant and Catholic churches. That’s just the way it is. You can’t change it. If you don’t like it, be glad you don’t live here.

Some churches even pay the choir singers! My daughter has been singing in a church choir for a “liberal” (Mother-Father God, Gay Celebration Day, etc.) church in her city, and receives $85/week. BTW, they sing beautiful sacred music, which is one reason she enjoys singing there, even if they church is dippy.

 

[4Squarebaby]

What traditional Catholic hymns require drums? Hence if we forget about the drummers and the guitar players, normally at least two or three, you can afford to find a decent organist/pianist, pay them more (if need be) than you’d otherwise be able to if you had the whole band tagging along and still make a saving on it. Not only does it make sense financially it also makes sense from a logistics point of view, i.e. 1/2 people to organise rather than however many are in the band and their instruments/set up/tune up, only need to get organ music, no transposition/additional rearranging required. And since we’d only have those people’s skill level to worry about rather than 4 or 5 people in a band we’re probably going to end up with a higher overall quality anyway, complete with the instrument which has been most prevalent over the last few centuries in Church music rather than the guitar which seeped in with the 60s.

Drums was not a Catholic specific comment, it is about what your brothers are finding in their music programs. Still it seems that many are expecting God to supernaturally provde musicians to their church. I think that we either train them or accept the skill they picked up in the world and adapt it to our churches. Where besides the church will they find an organ to practice on? I love the story of pop musician Robert Randolph, his church being unable to afford organs use pedal steel guitars, he learned to play the “Sacred Steel” by being tutured by older brothers in his church.

Much like in the Robert Duvall movie the Apostle when he planted a church and asked any with musical skill to bring their instrument next Sunday we make do with what we have. The question though remains what happens to the music program in the Catholic Church if you run out of people willing to serve?

I’m fairly certain it is actually, particularly if the Homily were doctrinally in error. As Catholics we should be able to attend the Mass which conforms to the standards the Church has set, if that means we have to go to St Y’s rather than St X’s to avoid the ‘praise team’ or whatever other innovation then it’s perfectly acceptable to do so.

My question wasn’t concerning error, just style. I was curious knowing the universal nature of your church that if the Priest down the road was a better public speaker can a Catholic move just to listen to him rather then the local Priest.

 

[snhs]

My question wasn’t concerning error, just style. I was curious knowing the universal nature of your church that if the Priest down the road was a better public speaker can a Catholic move just to listen to him rather then the local Priest.

If they found it more spiritually fulfilling listening to one Priest than another then they’re perfectly free to go and attend Mass in another Parish/Diocese, so long as they weren’t neglecting their other obligations by doing so. But that’s always been the case to an extent, people often went to hear some of the Saints, for example, or those whom they considered saintly, preach at a Mass.

 

[MusicMan]

Let me ask you of what spiritual value is the Eucharist? After all we can’t exactly claim to understand that can we. Of what spiritual benefit is Mass for that matter, when at it’s heart and soul is something that is completely and utterly beyond the powers of man’s understanding?

Understanding the words we use to praise and worship the Lord is vastly different than understanding the Sacred Mysteries.

It may have escaped your notice but even in America people sometimes go to see Operas in foreign languages or Movies in a foreign language. Sometimes they’ll take along the libretto, most of the time they will sit and listen to the music, they understand by listening and watching even if they could not tell you the meaning of every word in the script.

An elitist trying to preach to an elitist? Fascinating, yet pointless.

Please, the average American is far more concerned with the behind the scenes happenings on Desperate Housewives.

People advocating that we do what we’re meant to? My goodness, how radical . This is not about the way any one group of people want things to be, it is about what the Church wants of the music in the Liturgy.

Funny. If it’s supposed to be a certain way, why is it not in so many places, and has not been for so many years?

Further, the Church recognizes how absurd it would be to expect 70 years of musical development to be undone and universal Church music to revert back to something resembling the state of affairs in 1930 overnight. That is because the Church is wise. Why do you not understand how absurd what you’re asking is?

 

[4Squarebaby]

I The reason that musicians are paid for Mass is that this is how they make their living–music. There is nothing ungodly about wanting to be paid for doing your job.

The Bible says that a minister deserves to be paid.

I Corinthians 9 talks about wages and workers in the Church. Verse 14 says, “So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.”

Also read I Timothy 5: 17 and 18.

One complicating factor in the U.S. is that many professional musicians are often in a union, and if they’re not in the union, they respect the union. We don’t want to undercharge because this makes it difficult for other musicians who are making a living from their music. (It’s called “scab” labor in the U.S.–someone who is willing to do the work for a lot less than the work is worth.)

I often volunteer to play for Masses at my own parishes, but at other parishes, I am paid and so are all the other musicians. It’s not a lot, but it pays for my music. BTW, it’s not easy to find good piano arrangements of Catholic hymns to play for preludes, in case some of you grouse about why I always play those “Protestant” hymns for preludes.

Also, keep in mind that a musician will often play at several Masses in several different parishes on the weekends. So for us, these Masses are’t just worshipping the Lord and receiving Holy Communion. They’re work. I enjoy it, but it’s still work. There’s pressure to pay attention and keep an eye on things and make sure that the music is ready and that the mike is on, and a lot of other little details. And of course, if I’m playing at Mass, I’m not home cooking my Sunday dinner, or sleeping, or watching the game, or spending time with my husband and family.

snhs, I would suggest not continuing this discussion. Musicians in the U.S. are usually paid for work in church, both Protestant and Catholic churches. That’s just the way it is. You can’t change it. If you don’t like it, be glad you don’t live here.

Some churches even pay the choir singers! My daughter has been singing in a church choir for a “liberal” (Mother-Father God, Gay Celebration Day, etc.) church in her city, and receives $85/week. BTW, they sing beautiful sacred music, which is one reason she enjoys singing there, even if they church is dippy.

In my experience megachurches have enough professional level volunteers that they can get by without paying. Its the medium sized and large churches attempting to step up to mega status who pay. Hoping that better music was tempt members of small churches to their service with higher production values. The medium sized churches tend just to pay for a keyboard player and/or hire a fulltime minister of music.

Small churches get by with the skills of their members or use recorded music. Paying singers I’ve never heard of unless they were a working/touring Gospel/CCM act along with serving their home church as a praise team.

 

[snhs]

I don’t think you don’t quite understand how things work in the U.S.

The reason that musicians are paid for Mass is that this is how they make their living–music. There is nothing ungodly about wanting to be paid for doing your job.

…

One complicating factor in the U.S. is that many professional musicians are often in a union, and if they’re not in the union, they respect the union. We don’t want to undercharge because this makes it difficult for other musicians who are making a living from their music. (It’s called “scab” labor in the U.S.–someone who is willing to do the work for a lot less than the work is worth.)

I often volunteer to play for Masses at my own parishes, but at other parishes, I am paid and so are all the other musicians. It’s not a lot, but it pays for my music. BTW, it’s not easy to find good piano arrangements of Catholic hymns to play for preludes, in case some of you grouse about why I always play those “Protestant” hymns for preludes.

Also, keep in mind that a musician will often play at several Masses in several different parishes on the weekends. So for us, these Masses are’t just worshipping the Lord and receiving Holy Communion. They’re work. I enjoy it, but it’s still work. …

snhs, I would suggest not continuing this discussion. Musicians in the U.S. are usually paid for work in church, both Protestant and Catholic churches. That’s just the way it is. You can’t change it. If you don’t like it, be glad you don’t live here.

Unions do exist in Britain as well. You can make your living from something and still offer to play at a Mass, or for that matter any event, for free.

And even in your case you still make the distinction between your home Parish and other denominations/Parishes. Certainly in my Parish all of the organists/organ players are members of the Parish, though I am aware of one of the music teachers at my old school who had a paid position at a church of Scotland Kirk.

Whether it is the case or not, and whether it can be changed or not is largely irrelevant to what should be the ideal, and surely that is having organists/musicians generally who are actually parishioners in the Parish rather than hired help for the duration of Mass.

I often am glad I don’t actually, especially since November 4th. Although I would have quite liked to have a go at that whole marching band lark .

 

[4Squarebaby]

Unions do exist in Britain as well. You can make your living from something and still offer to play at a Mass, or for that matter any event, for free.

And even in your case you still make the distinction between your home Parish and other denominations/Parishes. Certainly in my Parish all of the organists/organ players are members of the Parish, though I am aware of one of the music teachers at my old school who had a paid position at a church of Scotland Kirk.

Whether it is the case or not, and whether it can be changed or not is largely irrelevant to what should be the ideal, and surely that is having organists/musicians generally who are actually parishioners in the Parish rather than hired help for the duration of Mass.

I often am glad I don’t actually, especially since November 4th. Although I would have quite liked to have a go at that whole marching band lark .

The big debate I normally hear is should we pay unsaved musicians? Are we there as leadership or just musicians? Many church members/musicians often give their pay back to the church. In my opinion churches that pay all their musicians are more rare then Cat seems to indicate.

 

[snhs]

Understanding the words we use to praise and worship the Lord is vastly different than understanding the Sacred Mysteries.

An elitist trying to preach to an elitist? Fascinating, yet pointless.

Please, the average American is far more concerned with the behind the scenes happenings on Desperate Housewives.

Funny. If it’s supposed to be a certain way, why is it not in so many places, and has not been for so many years?

Further, the Church recognizes how absurd it would be to expect 70 years of musical development to be undone and universal Church music to revert back to something resembling the state of affairs in 1930 overnight. That is because the Church is wise. Why do you not understand how absurd what you’re asking is?

Does that apply to Charismatics who claim to speak in tongues due to a gift of the Holy Spirit as well? From most accounts they can’t understand what the words they speak mean. Then there are the Apostles who we are told in the Bible spoke in tongues such that all the men who heard them heard it as if in their own language, and the Apostles certainly didn’t know what each of those languages meant and hence could have no concept of the meaning of what they were saying, unless they spoke in a common language which the Lord then moved those listening to hear and comprehend.

It is however the same principle, if the Lord can come to us in such a way through mysteries of which we have no real comprehension and have such an effect then it’s a fairly trivial matter for him to move hearts and minds through a song whose words are in another language.

The average American is not Catholic, and probably doesn’t attend Mass every week. I don’t think that means those who do attend should just follow the crowd, do you? If the majority of Americans jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

Well if you want the answer disobedience, either willfull or unintentional.

It is not a question of it being undone. In many Churches today it is as if the musical heritage of the Church from the time of St Gregory to VII had never existed, if the music of the Church can be displaced in the space of 50 years or so then getting rid of the current outcrop of the past few decades should be a fairly trivial matter.

The Church indeed is wise, but it is also lead and influenced by men who sometimes make the wrong decisions and get things wrong, and even if they do get it right then it depends on every link in the chain functioning so that the true decision gets down to the Parish level. The Church does not need to follow trends as some seem to think, just because the style of secular music has changed does not mean the style of music we hear in Church should necessarily do the same. Some people, mainly in Parishes and Diocese, thought otherwise, often with good intention, but the fact remains the when a plant grows too far from where it is meant to be it is often necessary to prune the dead leafs which have accumulated on the outer levels and sometimes remove twigs entirely before it is back to where it should have been all along. And it is such a process that the Vatican shall hopefully be leading in the near future.

 

[myroneffing]

I love Mass, and I want traditional music at Mass, but I have wished there were a separate praise and worship event or service once in a while to attend./QUOTE]

I wish you were a member of my parish. We could work together on something.

 

[Sarabande]

Why is it that people seem to think they should be payed for helping at Mass? If you are helping the Church for your own benefit, profit or self aggrandisement then I’d respectfully suggest that you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

For centuries the Church has paid for their music, art, etc. Even many of the smallest parishes in my area pay at least the organist if no one else. If they are professional musicians that is their source living. Many make their living mainly as church musicians because it is a steady position and much more safe than being a free-lance musician in which you may have tons of gigs in churches or secular venues one month and they hardly anything the next. If a musician doesn’t do it for a living and can afford to do the ministry for nothing that is another story. As a professional musician, I would love to be able to survive by giving my time for free all the time for the Church - and sometimes I do. When I worked regularly every Sunday at my parish, I actually would just give back a portion of what I make from the parish. But I also need to live. We don’t make tons of money and many of us are not doing it for self-aggrandisement or for an actual profit because in reality, what you would make from a typical Catholic parish might be enough to pay for your groceries or maybe a bill or a part of a music lesson which is to help perfect your musical abilities in order to produce music that is worthy of God. That is by no means a profit.

Also, many parishes will have only one organist to handle all the masses, all the funerals, weddings and other special masses during the week. Sometimes that organist will also be the choral director so they will be there for rehearsals during the week with the choir(s). Then there is the planning, the practicing, coming into church for preparations at least an hour prior. It can be a full time job at some parishes. If it is a busy and large parish, it can take up the entire weekend. As a musician and being with other musicians whose main source of income is as a church musician, you have no weekend. You are working during the week with maybe one day off, then you have to work the weekends, the holidays, etc. That is a full-time job and if we are asking them to work a full-time job without any kind of compensation that is wrong.

Of course every parish is different with their needs, but this is my experience working as a free-lance musician in a very large city with a large Catholic population and many parishes. I’ve worked in all kinds of parishes, so I know that the above example would not be the case in each parish.

And believe me, if any musician went into music because they thought they were going to make tons of money, they were dreaming and would have had a huge wake up call once they graduated from college or conservatory. If we wanted to have lots of money and steady income, we wouldn’t have become professional musicians.

Many professional church musicians do it because they love the music and because they were idealistic about doing it for God. They wanted to give back to God what He blessed with. They got paid either a decent salary or not much, but they thought they would love their job and be working for good people because they were working for the Church. Unfortunately, reality is not that idealistic and if anything, they become jaded sometimes by the people who ran the church or by the parishioners, lack of support, cheap talk, etc.

So, it is wrong to think that just because a musician actually makes his living as a music minister he’s doing it for the wrong reasons. It’s assuming that we know what is in his/her soul and mind. Unless, I hear from the horse’s mouth they he/she is doing it for the money and for his/her glory, that is when I can make that assertion. Other than that, although I’ve known some real bastards in this profession, I also know too many professional church musicians who are extremely holy and spiritually good people and give back to their parishes and to the Church monetarily as well as musically.

 

[Sarabande]

Oh, one more thing… although I loved cantoring at my parish either in my volunteer position or at my paid cantor position, I would often attend mass just as a congregant the same day, unless, of course, I was cantoring every mass that weekend. I know other musicians who do the same. Why? Because although it is spiritually fulfilling to help provide the sacred music for mass, it is still work - especially if you take your position seriously. Just being able to get through a piece or do a half-you-know-what job is, to me, an insult to God and to the rest of the congregation, especially if you know you can give more. And many times because the music can be very simple and elementary to give it a quick run-through 10 minutes prior to mass or to just sight-read it, it’s easy to just fall into the trap of not really paying much attention to it. That’s wrong, in my mind. You are trying to work and pray at the same time. It can be done, but it is easier when you are just a congregant.

 

[Cat]

In my experience megachurches have enough professional level volunteers that they can get by without paying. Its the medium sized and large churches attempting to step up to mega status who pay. Hoping that better music was tempt members of small churches to their service with higher production values. The medium sized churches tend just to pay for a keyboard player and/or hire a fulltime minister of music.

Small churches get by with the skills of their members or use recorded music. Paying singers I’ve never heard of unless they were a working/touring Gospel/CCM act along with serving their home church as a praise team.

The megachurch in our city pays. This church is a church plant of Willowcreek, and attracts 10,000+ people every Sunday for services. (Considering that our city has a population of 150,000, this number of attendees is amazing.)

The church actually has ads in the newspaper for “Stage Managers, Sound Techs, Light Techs, Musicians” and they pay.

There are plenty of opportunities for people to volunteer in this church (they do many good works in the community and are very generous with their time and money). But when it comes to the music, it’s quite professional–not the “boomer band” that you see in many evangelical churches that consists of all the 50-somethings like me who are still lost in the 70s and mourning that the Beatles never got back together.

My sister in law was hoping that her little 4-year old could participate in the Children’s Christmas Pageant last year–she had to bring him to a TRYOUT! And the kids who tried out had to have a RESUME and a PORTFOLIO, and they did not make it into the show unless they had previous experience on the stage. They also had to have a certain “look”. I’m talkin’ 4-year-olds here! My nephew didn’t make it, BTW.

There are reasons that megachurches are “mega”, and one of those reasons is really awesome music and theater that attracts people who would normally never go to church. These people are not interested in hearing people like me play and my husband cantor.

Music and theater is not true worship in and of itself, and the Mass is NOT a show. But the Bible does say that we should do all that we do to glorify the Lord. I admire these churches that encourage musicians to be the best, not just “willing.” I personally think that Catholic churches should strive to “compete” with these megachurches by seeking out and training talented people in their parishes and presenting excellent music at Mass whenever possible.

A few weeks ago, our Italian parish held a Mass for the Departed Souls, and hired the best musicians in town. Good for them.

And one of the music/liturgy directors in our city is presenting Mozart’s Requiem during Lent (I’m rehearsal accompanist!).

And next week, our parish will present a Broadway musical–not at Mass!! We’ve rented a hall, and we’ve been practicing for months, and I’m playing for it, and there’s a band of professional musicians, and three of the actors in the show are professionals, and I think it’s going to be really, really good, and propel our parish into the world of community theater in our region. (There are several other churches that have a theater company that presents a small “season”, and I’ve been encouraging the evangelism director at my parish to try to get something started in our parish, and she did!)

This is all good stuff, and I hope it continues.

As for traditional Latin music and chant, there is a small choir at the oratory where the TLM is said, and I believe they have an organist who conducts the choir, but I don’t know him. So this kind of music is available for those Catholics who long for the traditional music of the Church. I’d say things are pretty good in our city for Catholics! (We also have one Life Teen Mass, but the musicians are the teenagers, so boomers like me are out of luck and can’t live out our Woodstock fantasies in our parishes!)

 

[snhs]

For centuries the Church has paid for their music, art, etc. Even many of the smallest parishes in my area pay at least the organist if no one else. If they are professional musicians that is their source living. Many make their living mainly as church musicians because it is a steady position and much more safe than being a free-lance musician in which you may have tons of gigs in churches or secular venues one month and they hardly anything the next. If a musician doesn’t do it for a living and can afford to do the ministry for nothing that is another story. As a professional musician, I would love to be able to survive by giving my time for free all the time for the Church - and sometimes I do. When I worked regularly every Sunday at my parish, I actually would just give back a portion of what I make from the parish. But I also need to live. We don’t make tons of money and many of us are not doing it for self-aggrandisement or for an actual profit because in reality, what you would make from a typical Catholic parish might be enough to pay for your groceries or maybe a bill or a part of a music lesson which is to help perfect your musical abilities in order to produce music that is worthy of God. That is by no means a profit.

…

So, it is wrong to think that just because a musician actually makes his living as a music minister he’s doing it for the wrong reasons. It’s assuming that we know what is in his/her soul and mind. Unless, I hear from the horse’s mouth they he/she is doing it for the money and for his/her glory, that is when I can make that assertion. Other than that, although I’ve known some real bastards in this profession, I also know too many professional church musicians who are extremely holy and spiritually good people and give back to their parishes and to the Church monetarily as well as musically.

I understand that, and I did qualify it in a later post, although maybe I should have made it clearer initially. Where the duties and standards which the Parish expect reach the stage where it’s unrealistic/impossible for them to be achieved on a voluntary basis then it’s entirely appropriate that they provide a salary for it. But equally if a task has been accepted on a voluntary basis then it’s unreasonable to have an expectation of ‘monetary gifts’ before someone can express a view on the music.

I think there’s a difference between someone who has agreed to take on a salaried position and someone who has taken on a role for free. Particularly when it comes to what they can expect in terms of renumeration. That’s always the view I take if I’ve said I’d do something anyway.

 

[osohappy]

First and foremost, as a public school music teacher and a pastoral musician, I am seeing the following:

1.) Fewer young people learning to play piano.

2.) Even fewer young people who have learned to play piano learning organ.

3.) A shift in popular music from melody driven music to rhythm driven music. That’s why school pep bands don’t play the latest Top 40 hit any more, but instead tunes like Louie, Louie are still heard in gyms across America (and Louie, Louie may not be high musical art, but it’s melody driven).

4.) Dr. Willard Daggett of the International Center for Leadership in Education describes the current generation of kids as the “Trophy Generation.” We give out trophies for everyone at all levels. ME is now the center of the universe for our children, more than ever before.

5.) It’s a lot easier to learn five or six chords on the guitar and get them to flow together into a song about “Me and Jesus,” than it is to learn how to play the organ. I get home from my Lutheran gig on Sunday mornings and I feel like I need to take a nap. My legs are sore from how busy the pedal work is, and I’m not even that good of an organist.

Without any discussion or accusation regarding the quality of formation or teaching of young people, or any “post-VII” commentary, this is what our young people are coming to the table with. Who wouldn’t consider Lord, I Lift Your Name on High if it gets the young people into church and singing?

… But does it?

Hey, kids don’t even have to learn six guitar chords anymore. Have you ever seen “Guitar Hero” or Wii Music? All you have to do is just “air play” with the “instruments” supplied with the game. Personally, I think music lessons are, in the long run, much more creative. But what do I know–I’m a baby boomer…

 

[Aramis]

Hey, kids don’t even have to learn six guitar chords anymore. Have you ever seen “Guitar Hero” or Wii Music? All you have to do is just “air play” with the “instruments” supplied with the game. Personally, I think music lessons are, in the long run, much more creative. But what do I know–I’m a baby boomer…

Band and Orchestra are on the hit list in many school districts due to cost. However, some do bite the bullet.

ASD has required music through grade 6, and band/orchestra available as electives in grades 6-12. Choir is available as an elective in all 7-12 programs, and in most elementaries, usually grades 3-6.

Every child in the ASD program K-12 learns several instruments in elementary music.

So there is hope in some places… Almost every Roman Parish in Anchorage has a children’s choir.

 

[Cat]

Band and Orchestra are on the hit list in many school districts due to cost. However, some do bite the bullet.

ASD has required music through grade 6, and band/orchestra available as electives in grades 6-12. Choir is available as an elective in all 7-12 programs, and in most elementaries, usually grades 3-6.

Every child in the ASD program K-12 learns several instruments in elementary music.

So there is hope in some places… Almost every Roman Parish in Anchorage has a children’s choir.

I don’t know about the Catholic school standards for music teachers and their classes, but in the public schools in our city, “children’s choir” varies immensely depending on the teacher.

Some teachers teach their students how to read music and sight sing–bless them! They teach correct singing techniques, too. And they use a varied repertoire of music that exposes the students to many different styles of music and the history behind those songs. Students who are not “white European” are taught to sing in a head voice and to avoid popular music stylisms such as “scooping.” And students who are white European are taught about music from other cultures.

But other teachers use a “glee club” approach. The kids sing popular songs that build up their self-esteem, and they use whatever kind of singing voice they were born with. They never use music and never learn to read music. It’s all about feeling good and entertaining people.

Several of the schools conduct their music classes in Spanish because of the large population of Latinos. These kids don’t learn about reading music. They sing tejano and dance.

Also, in many public schools, the teachers are afraid to discipline. A parent or guardian will threaten a lawsuit at the slightest hint of “racism,” and I personally know many excellent, experienced teachers who have QUIT teaching because of this constant pressure to be PC.

This has been the situation in our city for the last twenty years, since a deseg lawsuit was launched against the schools and everything was made “correct” for the minorities.

So it’s no wonder that many of the kids come to church with attitudes that do not match the attitudes that some of you are discussing. I know I often sound head-shaking and bitter towards you, but honestly, I wish some of you could personally experience this situation and perhaps you would understand where I am coming from here. It’s not so easy to promote some of the stuff you are proposing in a city where the teaching of Latin or chant is considered “racist” and “white Eurocentric.”

I’ve worked with several children’s choirs in this city (as accompanist) and I really feel for the directors–they often spend a whole season trying to overcome the junk that the kids have been taught in their homes and public schools.

BTW, my children attended a private college prep school where French is required for all ages (starting at age 3 through high school), and Latin and classical studies are offered beginning in 6th grade. The kids in this school consistently win top prizes in the various Latin competitions that are offered all around the world.

 

[Phemie]

I am worried that we’re putting the cart before the horse here. I am still very concerned that the number one reason we find ourselves going in the wrong direction is failure to develop appropriate musical talent.

We seem to expect some kind of upheaval, rather than a steady, carefully calculated return.

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school aged piano player to play at Mass?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school piano player to expand their skills and begin study of organ?

How many of you took time today to encourage a high school vocalist to sing at church, not fronting the P&W Band, but rather in the traditional choir?

How many of you gave some thought to how your parish could fund a program to encourage young musicians to study traditional music so they could help lead the next generation in worshipping God through it?

How many of you looked with disdain at your Gather Comprehensive Hymnals, and then did something to try to get the Adoremus Hymnal added to your parish?

It’s all well and good that Rome and the USCCB will be promulgating a document regarding music in the US. If we’re not preparing our parishes to have musicians to implement the rubrics, it’s not going to matter.

Recruit the young musicians. Encourage them. Believe in them.

AMEN!

It always annoyed me that the only thing the youth of my parish were expected to sing was P&W. There is this assumption by adults that P&W is the only thing they WANT to sing so nothing else is offered to them. That is the equivalent only offering our kids candy because they happen to like candy. Yet if offered a variety of fruit and vegetables they find many that they really like.

I’ve tried suggesting that instead of segregating the youth to a once in a while so-called ‘Youth Mass’ (even when that’s the only Mass on a Sunday) they become part of the regular choir. I think it behooves ‘the choir’ to invite the young people to join them. Neither side was interested in what I had to say.

 

[agapewolf]

AMEN!

It always annoyed me that the only thing the youth of my parish were expected to sing was P&W. There is this assumption by adults that P&W is the only thing they WANT to sing so nothing else is offered to them. That is the equivalent only offering our kids candy because they happen to like candy. Yet if offered a variety of fruit and vegetables they find many that they really like.

I’ve tried suggesting that instead of segregating the youth to a once in a while so-called ‘Youth Mass’ (even when that’s the only Mass on a Sunday) they become part of the regular choir. I think it behooves ‘the choir’ to invite the young people to join them. Neither side was interested in what I had to say.

I try to teach the kids from the grade school “Holy God we praise thy name” and other such hymns. They don’t like it. Its taken me about 15 classes to get them to be smooth in singing it because it is so awkward. They cheer when we close the books and open the pw folders. This is fact. They DO like PW more. They sing it well after hearing it only once.

Teenagers and young people in choir is a NIGHTMARE. There are few exceptions, but 99% of the time, they are not responsible in showing up to all rehearsals, or show up on time, or even bother to call when they can’t make it. Nightmare. I’ve done it too many times. They are already overcommitted in school activities (where they are kicked out for not missing, or lose grades because of it).

I love teenagers. I’ve spent over 10 years as a youth minister, or heavily involved with them. This is not a matter of giving them enough credit. This is learned experience.