Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[Ogo_nwa_maria]

Thanks Ogo,
I understand you perfectly and share ur views. personally, am the kind of person that cant wait to hear the kyrie during easter vigil.two of my sisters have left the church and this is one of their claims,the people need to feel connected with the mass. a lot of times when you ask people what a latin verse means they have no idea. they just go along most of the time without feeling connected or understanding what it is they are singing. am not saying latin should be scrapped,but the indigenous language of the people should also be incorporated into the mass.We need to strike a balance.A lot of gifted youths are leaving the church today because of reasons. you should hear my sister’s voice, its wonderful. i still pray that they will come back.

O dear, my sister left too, same reason, no connection with the mass. When we lived in the North and mass was a bit lively, she stayed on but the moment we moved to Lagos and started attending a pre Vatican 2 mass like church, she didn’t last. I cried so much but guess what, my mum was happy cause she is a pastor in one of the biggest Pentecostal churches in the country. She has just the two of us and her dream is to convert us to Pentecostalism. She succeeded with my sister who is currently married to a non-catholic. She has tried and tried and given up on me cause she knows that this girl is an unrepentant catholic. In fact I am married to a very staunch catholic family where there the only church attended by the by husband’s village people is the Catholic Church.

Our priests are faced with a big challenge which is the African society and its way of worship. Before the advent of Christianity, people worshiped there gods with a lot of chanting and frenzy, that’s how they got into the spiritual realm. I don’t expect to visit the US and meet P & W in mass that will be so strange and contrary to the EWTN impression I have. However, if I go to Togo for example, and see gongs and tumbrels at mass, I would not be shocked. My take is, we cannot put God in a bottle, He is the judge of the human heart, he knows what worship is acceptable to Him. I have gone for masses where there was a lot of P & W at mass and I really did not feel God absent there. Personally I only appreciate P & W after communion maybe during thanksgiving but I know that I cannot categorically say P & W is wrong in mass cause lets remember that the spirit of God in Elijah and Elisha were the same but manifested in different ways. Just that I would rather not have it there.

Having said all that, i must add that i am a strong advocate of a liturgical committee vetting ALL choruses before they are used in any catholic gathering. Seriously, it pains me when i come to church and here such uncatholic choruses being song in the church.

At mass I enjoy the contemporary compositions which are tailored towards the parts of the mass in issue. We have a lot in this part of the world both in English and our local tongue and they are usually beautiful. My take is for these songs to be vetted by a liturgical committee which I believe must be set up in every dioceses. During morning masses weekdays I am fine with singing only from the hymn book but on Sunday, I need some of those really nice compositions we get these days proved they are liturgically approved.

I don’t agree with dancing et al during mass. Even if, all that I believe should be after communion. However one cannot distract from the fact that a solemn traditional like mass here in Africa will just not work.

 

[tonia]

EXACTLY MY POINT. What church is your mother attending? i am still very close to my sister, but you know somethings are just not the same anymore.

**My take is, we cannot put God in a bottle, He is the judge of the human heart, he knows what worship is acceptable to Him. I have gone for masses where there was a lot of P & W at mass and I really did not feel God absent there. Personally I only appreciate P & W after communion maybe during thanksgiving but I know that I cannot categorically say P & W is wrong in mass cause lets remember that the spirit of God in Elijah and Elisha were the same but manifested in different ways. Just that I would rather not have it there.

Having said all that, i must add that i am a strong advocate of a liturgical committee vetting ALL choruses before they are used in any catholic gathering. Seriously, it pains me when i come to church and here such uncatholic choruses being song in the church. **At mass I enjoy the contemporary compositions which are tailored towards the parts of the mass in issue. We have a lot in this part of the world both in English and our local tongue and they are usually beautiful. My take is for these songs to be vetted by a liturgical committee which I believe must be set up in every dioceses. During morning masses weekdays I am fine with singing only from the hymn book but on Sunday, I need some of those really nice compositions we get these days proved they are liturgically approved.

I don’t agree with dancing et al during mass. Even if, all that I believe should be after communion. However one cannot distract from the fact that a solemn traditional like mass here in Africa will just not work.

 

[Charlie_Vivian]

This has been a fascinating thread. It seems we have 2 main views:

1. The Mass is an act of sacrifice, and should be solemn and reverent. This appears to be in line with papal pronouncements to date.
2. P&W is enthusiastic, and can lead people into very strong emotional worship of God. (Similar to King David dancing with all his might before the Ark, and exposing himself in the process).

I have 20 years of experience with Protestant worship, and less than 1 year with the Mass. I love the Mass, because the movement of the Holy Spirit is absolutely part of the process, and is guaranteed, regardless of how I feel. In contrast, in Protestant services, I often felt that I needed to try and be in a particular frame of mind, or the choruses made no sense, and became distracting. But, during the Mass, I often experience a great excitement at God’s mercy, and at those times, I would love to sing with passion and enthusiasm. And the hymnal we use already has a large number of P&W songs in it.

And, additionally, we know that many of the hymns we love were rejected when written, because the songs often were based on drinking halls and secular sources.

I respect the position of the Pope, and his right to define what is right and proper. Just as I submit to Jesus, so will I submit to the teachings of the church.

 

[benedictgal]

This has been a fascinating thread. It seems we have 2 main views:

1. The Mass is an act of sacrifice, and should be solemn and reverent. This appears to be in line with papal pronouncements to date.
2. P&W is enthusiastic, and can lead people into very strong emotional worship of God. (Similar to King David dancing with all his might before the Ark, and exposing himself in the process).

I have 20 years of experience with Protestant worship, and less than 1 year with the Mass. I love the Mass, because the movement of the Holy Spirit is absolutely part of the process, and is guaranteed, regardless of how I feel. In contrast, in Protestant services, I often felt that I needed to try and be in a particular frame of mind, or the choruses made no sense, and became distracting. But, during the Mass, I often experience a great excitement at God’s mercy, and at those times, I would love to sing with passion and enthusiasm. And the hymnal we use already has a large number of P&W songs in it.

And, additionally, we know that many of the hymns we love were rejected when written, because the songs often were based on drinking halls and secular sources.

I respect the position of the Pope, and his right to define what is right and proper. Just as I submit to Jesus, so will I submit to the teachings of the church.

However, King David wasn’t dancing in a liturgical context. I think it would be helpful to examine the Mass in relation to the cultic worship of ancient Israel. The Lord spent significant chunks of time explaining to Moses just how and when, and in what manner, He was to be worshipped. Any deviation from this form of worship met with serious consequences (Aaron’s sons and Dathan were struck down and killed by God).

If you read Exodus, Deuteronomy and even parts of Leviticus, the parts that pertain to the cultic, sacrificial worship of God treated teh matter with all seriousness and solemnity.

If people want to use P&W music, then use it outside of the Mass. I would even say use it apart from Bendiction. When I lived my Cursillo two years ago, the team had the bright idea of using P&W during Benediction. The two are grossly incompatible. People were clapping and swaying in front of the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance. It was not appropriate at all. It was as though these people had no concept about the solemnity, the majesty and the dignity of this special liturgy.

By the way, you can very well sing the traditional hymns with passion and enthusiasm. I have heard robust singing of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, Immaculate Mary, Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above and All Glory, Laud and Honor, as well as To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King.

 

[Cat]

However, King David wasn’t dancing in a liturgical context. I think it would be helpful to examine the Mass in relation to the cultic worship of ancient Israel. The Lord spent significant chunks of time explaining to Moses just how and when, and in what manner, He was to be worshipped. Any deviation from this form of worship met with serious consequences (Aaron’s sons and Dathan were struck down and killed by God).

If you read Exodus, Deuteronomy and even parts of Leviticus, the parts that pertain to the cultic, sacrificial worship of God treated teh matter with all seriousness and solemnity.

If people want to use P&W music, then use it outside of the Mass. I would even say use it apart from Bendiction. When I lived my Cursillo two years ago, the team had the bright idea of using P&W during Benediction. The two are grossly incompatible. People were clapping and swaying in front of the Blessed Sacrament in the monstrance. It was not appropriate at all. It was as though these people had no concept about the solemnity, the majesty and the dignity of this special liturgy.

By the way, you can very well sing the traditional hymns with passion and enthusiasm. I have heard robust singing of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, Immaculate Mary, Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above and All Glory, Laud and Honor, as well as To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King.

The comment about Praise and Worship music for Benediction is just your opinion. I personally–my opinion–believe that it is inappropriate for people to stumble through badly-pronounced, badly-sung Latin hymns that they don’t understand during Benediction, too. My opinion.

 

[MusicMan]

We’re beginning to get into the territory of personal taste again, which is, one of the things that tends to cause problems with inappropriate music at Mass in the first place. Careful that we never take things to extremes on either side of the issue.

 

[benedictgal]

The comment about Praise and Worship music for Benediction is just your opinion. I personally–my opinion–believe that it is inappropriate for people to stumble through badly-pronounced, badly-sung Latin hymns that they don’t understand during Benediction, too. My opinion.

Cat, there is a time and place for everything. The P&W genre simply does not work for the solemnity and dignity of Benediction. There is solemnity in this particular liturgical action. P&W is not compatible with that.

By the way, the Tatum Ergo has an English translation, as does the Pangie Lingua. These are very easy to sing and certainly befit the beauty of the ceremony.

 

[agapewolf]

Cat, there is a time and place for everything. The P&W genre simply does not work for the solemnity and dignity of Benediction. There is solemnity in this particular liturgical action. P&W is not compatible with that.
.

Your opinion.

Simply restating this over and over and over again does not argue the point, nor convince anyone of its validity.

 

[Ogo_nwa_maria]

Mountain of Fire and Miracles Ministries, she is a pastor there. My sister now goes to Redeemed and is a staunch member.

EXACTLY MY POINT. What church is your mother attending? i am still very close to my sister, but you know somethings are just not the same anymore.

**My take is, we cannot put God in a bottle, He is the judge of the human heart, he knows what worship is acceptable to Him. I have gone for masses where there was a lot of P & W at mass and I really did not feel God absent there. Personally I only appreciate P & W after communion maybe during thanksgiving but I know that I cannot categorically say P & W is wrong in mass cause lets remember that the spirit of God in Elijah and Elisha were the same but manifested in different ways. Just that I would rather not have it there.

Having said all that, i must add that i am a strong advocate of a liturgical committee vetting ALL choruses before they are used in any catholic gathering. Seriously, it pains me when i come to church and here such uncatholic choruses being song in the church. **At mass I enjoy the contemporary compositions which are tailored towards the parts of the mass in issue. We have a lot in this part of the world both in English and our local tongue and they are usually beautiful. My take is for these songs to be vetted by a liturgical committee which I believe must be set up in every dioceses. During morning masses weekdays I am fine with singing only from the hymn book but on Sunday, I need some of those really nice compositions we get these days proved they are liturgically approved.

I don’t agree with dancing et al during mass. Even if, all that I believe should be after communion. However one cannot distract from the fact that a solemn traditional like mass here in Africa will just not work.

 

[VociMike]

Your opinion.

Simply restating this over and over and over again does not argue the point, nor convince anyone of its validity.

Then perhaps those who argue for P&W in a liturgical setting would like to offer their point-by-point assessment of how well P&W measures up to the supreme model and permanent standard of Gregorian chant. An assessment of how well P&W “approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model.”

That would be an interesting exercise. Will the P&W supporters here give it a shot, and if not, why not?

 

[snhs]

The comment about Praise and Worship music for Benediction is just your opinion. I personally–my opinion–believe that it is inappropriate for people to stumble through badly-pronounced, badly-sung Latin hymns that they don’t understand during Benediction, too. My opinion.

Where did you learn what well pronounced Latin sounds like? It seems that you can’t know whether it is “badly-pronounced” unless you’re aware of what it should sound like.

Perhaps I missed the document which mentioned it but I don’t recall the ability to be able to sing well as being a condition for participating in the singing of hymns in any language during the Liturgy of the Catholic Church. And I’ve heard more modern ‘music’, I use the word very loosely, sung incredibly badly during Mass, often far worse in fact than more musically complex traditional hymns.

I often hear hymns I don’t understand during Mass, I don’t understand how anyone could consider them appropriate for Mass far less how anyone could actually like them, but maybe that’s just me.

That’s all just my opinion, though apparently a fair number of people at the Vatican seem to think so too.

 

[agapewolf]

Then perhaps those who argue for P&W in a liturgical setting would like to offer their point-by-point assessment of how well P&W measures up to the supreme model and permanent standard of Gregorian chant. An assessment of how well P&W “approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model.”

That would be an interesting exercise. Will the P&W supporters here give it a shot, and if not, why not?

Actually, I have done such a thing. It has been glossed over and ignored. Many people here have no idea how to discuss music itself that they have been unable to refute any points I make. I’m tired.

 

[snhs]

Actually, I have done such a thing. It has been glossed over and ignored. Many people here have no idea how to discuss music itself that they have been unable to refute any points I make. I’m tired.

If you would only make some points worth refuting I’m sure most people would be more than capable of doing so. If you feel up to attempting such a comparison at some point go ahead.

Like VociMike I think it would be a fascinating exercise.

 

[agapewolf]

If you would only make some points worth refuting I’m sure most people would be more than capable of doing so. If you feel up to attempting such a comparison at some point go ahead.

Like VociMike I think it would be a fascinating exercise.

Like I said, I have before. It’s been ignored. I’m not doing it again.

 

[MusicMan]

While understanding the lyrics and having a rudimentary capability of singing are not required by Church documents, reason dictates that the worship and spiritual life of the faithful would be enhaced by understanding what we are singing and being able to sing it.

If the faithful do not understand a Latin hymn, of what spiritual benefit is it to them? How can they properly worship God through the singing of that hymn if the lyrics are meaningless to them?

We’ve done the readings in English for years. Prior to the Missal of 1962. Why? So the faithful could understand them. The readings in the EF Mass are read in English.

Like it or not, the American Catholic Church has moved away from Latin in the liturgy and traditional sacred music. This didn’t happen overnight. It has been a steady progression since before 1962. Society has changed, music has changed, school curricula have changed. The American Church has changed with it.

If you were born after 1970, did you learn Chant in Catholic school?

We sang out of the High God books

If you were born after 1970, did you learn Latin in Catholic school?

Nope

Greek?

Nope. We did learn a little French from the principal.

What about public school? Did you learn Latin in Catholic school?

I took German. They cut Latin my junior year.

Anyone sing Chant in public school choir?

Nope

I am gravely concerned that those of you advocating we “go back to the way it was/is supposed to be” are expecting that when Rome promulgates a document on music at Mass just think everything will be back to the way you want it the next day. It’s not going to happen that way.

And now, I come back to responsibility… What are you doing to positively foster an interest in Latin in your parishes?

Societal changes have costs us young people playing organ. If you’re not stepping up to the plate in your parishes and encouraging, when my generation gets too old, organ will be finished. Latin is too, I’m afraid.

 

[Cat]

While understanding the lyrics and having a rudimentary capability of singing are not required by Church documents, reason dictates that the worship and spiritual life of the faithful would be enhaced by understanding what we are singing and being able to sing it.

If the faithful do not understand a Latin hymn, of what spiritual benefit is it to them? How can they properly worship God through the singing of that hymn if the lyrics are meaningless to them?

We’ve done the readings in English for years. Prior to the Missal of 1962. Why? So the faithful could understand them. The readings in the EF Mass are read in English.

Like it or not, the American Catholic Church has moved away from Latin in the liturgy and traditional sacred music. This didn’t happen overnight. It has been a steady progression since before 1962. Society has changed, music has changed, school curricula have changed. The American Church has changed with it.

If you were born after 1970, did you learn Chant in Catholic school?

We sang out of the High God books

If you were born after 1970, did you learn Latin in Catholic school?

Nope

Greek?

Nope. We did learn a little French from the principal.

What about public school? Did you learn Latin in Catholic school?

I took German. They cut Latin my junior year.

Anyone sing Chant in public school choir?

Nope

I am gravely concerned that those of you advocating we “go back to the way it was/is supposed to be” are expecting that when Rome promulgates a document on music at Mass just think everything will be back to the way you want it the next day. It’s not going to happen that way.

And now, I come back to responsibility… What are you doing to positively foster an interest in Latin in your parishes?

Societal changes have costs us young people playing organ. If you’re not stepping up to the plate in your parishes and encouraging, when my generation gets too old, organ will be finished. Latin is too, I’m afraid.

Please allow me to add to this. If you criticize a pianist or guitarist or ANY musician in your parish by telling them that their instrument is “secular”, or that they play like a lounge lizard, then you have essentially ended any possibility of dialogue with the musicians in your parish.

We musicians stick together. You offend one, and you offend them all. Perhaps that’s not “Catholic” and it’s certainly not logical, but it’s reality.

I will state something that I have stated over and over again on these forums in various music topics–musicians do the very best they can and in most cases, offer their work to the Lord and to His people. We try very hard. If you are going to criticize us, don’t unless you, too, are a musician. That’s the best advice I can offer. Take your complaints to someone who has the authority to bring about change (e.g., the priest.) We’re just playing and singing what they hand us, OK, and we’re doing the best we can to honor God with it.

 

[benedictgal]

Then perhaps those who argue for P&W in a liturgical setting would like to offer their point-by-point assessment of how well P&W measures up to the supreme model and permanent standard of Gregorian chant. An assessment of how well P&W “approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model.”

That would be an interesting exercise. Will the P&W supporters here give it a shot, and if not, why not?

Perhaps it is because the two are diametrically opposed. I have yet to see an authoritative document from the Holy See indicating that the P*W genre is acceptable. From what I have seen (and from what I’ve posted), the model that everyone cites, including Pope John Paul II, is what you’ve indicated: Gregorian Chant.

What the P&W proponents have not been able to refute successfully is this big concern from the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist:

Various responses to the Lineamenta recommend that singing at Mass and Eucharistic Adoration be done in a dignified manner. The faithful need to know the standard Gregorian chants, which have been composed to meet the needs of people of all times and places, in virtue of their simplicity, refinement and agility in form and rhythm. As a result, the songs and hymns presently in use need to be reconsidered.87 To enter into sacred or religious usage, instrumental or vocal music is to have a sense of prayer, dignity and beauty. This requires an integrity of form, expressing true artistry, corresponding to the various rites and capable of adaptation to the legitimate demands of inculturation. This is to be done without detracting from the idea of universality. Gregorian chant fulfills these needs and can therefore serve as a model, according to Pope John Paul II.88 Musicians and poets should be encouraged to compose new hymns, according to liturgical standards, which contain authentic catechetical teaching on the paschal mystery, Sunday and the Eucharist.

…In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

This last paragraph describes the P&W genre accurately. But, the rest of this section from the Instrumentum Laboris also bears mentioning because it highlights a huge problem with what composers and publishing houses are trying to pass off as liturgical music.

How can proponents of the P&W genre maintain that it is indeed appropriate for use in liturgical worship if the style is incompatible with what the Church requests for her rites? It is as though the documents of the Holy See are being treated as personal opinions rather than the legitimate, binding texts that they are.

Inasmuch as there will be those who will cite Sing to the Lord and Music in Catholic Worship, the documetns of the USCCB, they are not legislative nor regulatory. Sing to the Lord did not pass with enough votes to secure recogntio from the Holy See and is more of a teaching document than legally binding. What is legally binding is the document that it cites, Musicam Sacram.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Please allow me to add to this. If you criticize a pianist or guitarist or ANY musician in your parish by telling them that their instrument is “secular”, or that they play like a lounge lizard, then you have essentially ended any possibility of dialogue with the musicians in your parish.

We musicians stick together. You offend one, and you offend them all. Perhaps that’s not “Catholic” and it’s certainly not logical, but it’s reality.

I will state something that I have stated over and over again on these forums in various music topics–musicians do the very best they can and in most cases, offer their work to the Lord and to His people. We try very hard. If you are going to criticize us, don’t unless you, too, are a musician. That’s the best advice I can offer. Take your complaints to someone who has the authority to bring about change (e.g., the priest.) We’re just playing and singing what they hand us, OK, and we’re doing the best we can to honor God with it.

Outside of the Catholic Church the same debate is happening. Some denominations and/or individual congregations are more liberal, others more conservative in what music is acceptable in their services. I would not say conversation is ended because of a harsh word. We accept that we served a mixed audience, in my case generationaly and culturally. The final say is handed over to the senior Pastor in consultation with the Praise leader. As I understand it you are waiting for a decision from a higher level religious authority. Until he/they make a decision the lines of communication must remain open.

 

[VociMike]

Like I said, I have before. It’s been ignored. I’m not doing it again.

Surely the matter is worthy of a bit of cut and paste. There are always new people on these forums who haven’t read all of the last 100,000 posts.

 

[RWMorris]

As the organist/pianist/cantor for our little cathedral, I am getting sick and tired of people criticizing the music we pick. I don’t even get paid for what I do, yet I am there week after week, day after day, getting music ready on my days off from “real work” that I actually get paid for.
My choir, if you can call them that, doesn’t even want to have rehearsal anymore. I can’t get them together for more than 15 minutes without someone having to leave.
And you want them to learn Latin chants, so that your delicate ears will be pleased?
Give me a serious break. The people who often complain about the music usually aren’t even in choir. And they sure don’t help pay me for the music I provide. How about a special monetary gift at Christmas? Would these grousers ever even THINK of doing that? Of course not.
So you know what I do? I play hymns that the congregation knows. I usually throw in a P/W song from the Music Missal during Communion. I try to teach the congregation an occasional new song or hymn. I do the best I can do. But Gregorian chant is simply unattainable for the most part.
Why don’t you complainers spend the next 40 years learning to play the piano or organ, then take a church job for next to nothing, and THEN you have the right to complain. Otherwise, be quiet.